If there ever was a black mark against the Sheevites, it was this thread. Time to fix that.
Some people here do apparently think, that Sidious is "the most powerful" Sith Lord / Force user and that's the end of the story. While I don't share this opinion, I don't have to argue it, since there is more than enough going to Kun. Starting of as a Jedi apprentice, Kun was a being of noteable talent. His master Vodo points out multiple times, that Kun is the most formidable student he has ever seen. Coming from a 600 year old Jedi Master, this points to a noteable potential in terms of force ability / lightsaber ability. Testament from Vodo himself:"Exar Kun was my greatest student," Master Vodo said, "yet he was corrupted. He was seduced by the powers available to him through studies of ancient Sith teachings." - Jedi Academy: Dark Apprentice.
So, again: He is the most formidable and greatest student that Vodo had in the past six centuries and probably by far if Vodo casts a judgement like this. Being one of the most gifted in centuries speaks for a rare quality in terms of potential. In fact, similar statements for PT times are just available for Mace Windu and Count Dooku. Just to give you an idea of what kind of invidual we are talking about.
Relatively worthless hype for Kun, and it does not imply equality – perhaps rough parity, but not equality – with bladesmen like Windu and Dooku.
Dooku was considered the greatest student of Grandmaster Yoda himself, a 900-year-old Jedi Master:
"Hm." Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!" His eyes found the other Jedi, one by one: and one by one, they looked away. "Our greatest student!" Yoda's ears flexed, then drooped. "Our greatest failure."
-Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
On the other side of the galaxy, the Order's most gifted apprentice reached out to tap a lightsaber with the toe of his boot. Count Dooku grimaced.
-Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
One should obviously realize that 900 years is a greater length of time than 600 years, making Dooku a better swordsman that Kun. He not only became the best student Yoda ever had, but by reaching this position, he had become the third best duelist in all of history:
Yoda taught many pupils throughout his years, including Dooku, who became one of the finest sword masters the Order ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.
-The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection 48
History, that includes Exar Kun himself. And of course, as can be observed from the quote, Dooku’s skills were surpassed by Mace Windu.
Mace Windu, who was incapable of defeating Sidious in a lightsaber duel without external factors amplifying him and/or Sidious throwing the fight:
There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.
-Revenge of the Sith novelization
In fact, there is even evidence of Sidious holding back, indicating even greater raw skill than Mace Windu:
In the above picture, Sidious is pointing his blade at Windu’s chest for several seconds, but does not take the killing blow. One might argue this is simply because of the choreography, but I’d need Nick Gillard’s word to buy that. Otherwise, I’m going with what I see on-screen.
With all this, how does Kun hope to defeat Sidious with an accolade that doesn’t even cover the PT Jedi, to whom Sidious has proven himself to be a greater swordsman, at least in terms of raw skill?
Of course, Kun has impressed quite some people during his career. Some of them even, when he was dead for four-thousand years:"Yavin 4, it turned out, had been the seat of power of a formidable Dark Lord of the Sith, a fallen Jedi known as Exar Kun." - Corran Horn - I, Jedi.
"If Exar Kun could mask the attack on me in such a way that Luke could not feel it barely fifteen meters away, then he could have slain Gantoris and could still wreak more havoc here with impunity. We were up against something more powerful than I'd ever cared to imagine existing." - Corran Horn – I, Jedi.
Emphasis mine.
Even if we are dealing with the statements of a character here, they are still quite interesting. Because not only does Horn, a Jedi, mark Kun as a "formidable Dark Lord", he also mentions that Kun is beyond anything he ever imagined when it comes to power.
More worthless hype. It’s only Corran’s imited viewpoint, and quite limited indeed, if he’s so easily impressed by simple Force concealment powers. I’m fairly certain that if Horn were to witness what Darth Sidious has accomplished with his cloaking abilities – like masking your Force sensitivity from the entire Jedi Council for decades while simultaneously suppressing their Force connection - he’d make the same claim for Sidious.
Even a lowly Dark Jedi, Xanatos could mask his presence from the entire Jedi Temple, as detailed in Jedi Apprentice: The Captive Temple. Corran is far too easily impressed by abilities even Dark Jedi can perform, so his thoughts cannot be used as evidence when it comes to judging Kun’s power level.
A general praise for Exar Kun, that is confirmed by the Dark Side Sourcebook as well (p.77):So he goes from "promising Jedi apprentice to "formidable Sith Lord" and is coined as both "excellent student" and "master swordsman".
Statements like this are handed out to people all the time. Again, worthless.
The Official Star Wars Fact File goes even one step further, though:So Exar Kun is the "most powerful and dangerous of all Sith Lords". And even if you want to believe the argument put forth, that the "most powerful" has been "retconned" – that is certainly not the case, when it comes to the "most dangerous" part of the quote. And there is more than enough reason to assume, that this is a rather accurate description.
“Most dangerous” could have many connotations with it, and not just refer to combat ability. And how do you even quantify how “dangerous” a person is, in regards to combat, anyway? I don’t see how that would be an indicator of superiority to Sidious.
And the “most powerful” part has indeed been retconned several times by characters like Vitiate, Plagueis, and Sidious.
Despite the fact, that Kun had less than a year in his role as dark side practicioner, he amassed some nice amount of knowledge in that brief period of time – and a nice amount of powers with that. A notice of that is made by Tionne:"Though Kun had enormous power, it seems that the key" — Tionne tapped the side of her instrument with a glistening fingernail — "the key was that the other Jedi combined their might. They fought together as a unit where all the pieces fit together, as components in a much larger machine powered by the Force." - Jedi Academy: Champions of the Force
Another generic accolade. Nothing special there.
And when Tionne says "enormous power", that is probably a quite correct assertion of the kind of force energy, Kun was wielding, considering the brief observation of Aleema Keto, just after Ragnos has given the Dark Lord mantle to Exar Kun:Not only does she perceive an "astonishing transformation" in her lover, but sees the two Sith Lords ripple with dark-side energy. The only other being in the mythos described in this particular fashion is Vitiate – through the eyes of Revan. You may correct me there, if I'm wrong.
So they have more power than Aleema Keto. Nothing special there, as Sidious could claim the same:
Ashing a Sithspawn is certainly more impressive than turning a human into a skeleton. As for Kun and Qel-Droma “rippling with dark-side energy”, even Lord Skere Kaan has been described in such a manner:
He radiated confidence and strength. He seemed to glow with a violet aura, as if he were the very embodiment of the dark side.
-Darth Bane: Path of Destruction
And yet, Darth Bane was far more powerful than Kaan:
Lord Kaan knew he was no match for Bane, either physically or through the power of the Force.
-Darth Bane: Path of Destruction
And Sidious has about thirty power gaps over Bane, given that the latter was the weakest of the Banite Sith:
For a millennium, the Sith maintained the order in secrecy, passing down their evil heritage. As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation.
-Episode 1: The Phantom Menace Scrapbook
These feats do not make Kun even slightly comparable to Sidious. You’ll have to present something better than that.
It still means that Kun was handling quite a lot of personal force power. An idea confirmed by the observation of Oss Willum as well:Even in the midst of a battlefield, that Kun simply walks over unharmed by everything coming down around him, and surrounded by other powerful Force users, Oss Willum recognizes Kun as "immensily powerful".
And what has Oss Willum done, to have his opinion have any weight whatsoever? All he seems to be is just another random Jedi like Corran Horn, easily impressed by Padawan-level stuff.
In fact, the narrator of the "Sith War" storyline, labels Kun nothing short of "the darkest power in the Galaxy":If one is inclined to ignore any kind of context – as some people here are inclined to do – we're talking about a Galaxy that contained Vitiate and his Sith Empire, the Star Forge, the Dark Reaper and even the Son and Abeloth. If we apply context, we would still end up with a Galaxy that housed multiple worlds coined by the Dark Side (e.g. Korriban, Ziost) and various organisations of Dark Siders that are all nothing compared to Kun's personal power.
Now this is impressive. However, I don’t see how this puts Kun above Sidious, since the latter lived far later. Sidious, however, has numerous quotes labeling him the most powerful Sith Lord in history and dark side Force user in general. But we all know how you feel about those, don’t we? 🙂
And his fellow Jedi seemed to have had similar convictions, after Kun started the Sith War. In fact, the Jedi Order of the time saw Kun as such a major threat, that the combined order was send to take the Dark Lord down. Compare that to the four Jedi Masters send to confront Sidious.
Well, the Jedi were certainly fully aware of Exar Kun’s power, and knew what it would take to bring him down. We cannot say the same for Sidious, though, since the Jedi had no idea what to expect from him.
The strike team that was sent after Darth Bane also consisted of fourteen Jedi in total, ten more than was sent after Sidious. Yet as I’ve already proven, Sidious is canonically more powerful than Bane (see the quote above). How many Jedi were sent after an individual does not reflect their personal power in the Force or their ability in combat. This is not sufficient proof of Exar Kun’s superiority.
The latter himself remarks about a certain aspect of Kun's knowledge ("Jedi vs Sith – The Essential Guide to the Force", p.173-174):So Kun was equipped with Sadow's knowledge. The same knowledge that was either used by Sadow or Kun himself (Book of Sith, p.64) to construct the Dark Reaper, the device that drained the force energy of everything and shot dark side beams to cause destruction, which was used to depopulate entire planets during the Great Sith War and that was active in PT times. What was the comment on it? Ah, yes: "If Dooku restores the Reaper, it will mean the end of the Republic." - Mace Windu, Star Wars: The Clone Wars video game
You do realize that the very quite you posted states Sidious also had all of Naga Sadow’s knowledge, right? Aren’t you supposed to argue what advantages Kun has over Sidious, and not just list every random accolade and piece of trivia that ultimately proves nothing?
And Kun was, apparently, very busy using the knowledge given to him:
"Kun was fixated in unleashing pure, unbridled power through ancient Sith means. He practiced Sith magic and alchemy, crafting horrific creatures on the moon of Yavin 4." - Star Wars Databank Link.
I wonder what “pure, unbridled power” Kun has in store for Sidious, and how it will help him here. I hope, for his sake, that it’s something more impressive than breeding animals which aren’t even here to help him.
When it comes to utilizing the aforementioned knowledge, even Kun's spirit had some impressing stuff to offer, as it seems, given Kyp Durrons view on the issue:"Exar Kun had shown him how to unleash great powers. Kyp did not trust the Sith Lord, but he could not deny the truth of what the shadow man taught. Kyp could see the power actually working." - Jedi Academy: Dark Apprentice
So even while Kyp doesn't trust the Sith Lord, he is impressed by the powers Kun had taught him to use.
And which abilities are those? Force Lightning? Dark side tendrils? The former is absolutely useless given that Sidious has tanked stronger blasts than- Well, Kun doesn’t seem to have any feats with that, so yeah, it’s definitely useless.
Dark side tendrils I doubt are of much use either, since Sidious most likely knows a defence against it, which I’ll elaborate on later.
In fact, Kun's spirit is quite capable of actively boosting Kyp's abilities – and that by a fairly huge margin:"Behind him Kyp felt the black-ice power of Exar Kun arise, tapping into him and reinforcing his abilities. His own feeble exploratory touch suddenly plunged forward like a blaster bolt." - Jedi Academy: Dark Apprentice
Sure, the power of a Dark Lord of the Sith is obviously going to surpass that of a Padawan-tier character by a mile. Against another Dark Lord of the Sith- Nay, the Dark Lord of the Sith, I doubt he’d impress anyone except the audience. Meaning no one.
And that wasn't everything Exar Kun was capable of utilzing, when he was still alive ("Jedi Academy Sourcebook", p.50) :So not only does Kun have access to a variety of powers – aside from those he demonstrated. He also channeled[I] some of them through Luke's students, instead of – as somebody has suggested here – capitalizing on their force energies. Furthermore does that statement proof that Kun's "disembodied will" was [I]less powerful than his original body. That idea is likewise confirmed by the "Dark Side Sourcebook" (p.105):
So contrary to the claims made in this thread so far, Kun's spirit did never even approach the power-levels of Exar Kun in his flesh, much less developing powers exceeding that of Exar Kun when he was alive. You may want to keep that in mind for the following...
All of this is irrelevant, as I’ll elaborate later. When even living Kun doesn’t compare to Sidious, how could spirit Kun?
Unlike many other force users in the mythos, Exar Kun has demonstrated a variety of force abilities in direct confrontation or taught them to / exercised them through his pawns while in the shape of a spirit. First of all, there would be raw telekinesis. Kun is not only capable of ragdolling other Jedi without any effort:And as far as "ragdolling" goes, even his compareably powerless spirit was able to casually manhandle people with apparent ease:
"Kun flicked a finger at me, sending me whirling across the courtyard. I tried to gather the Force around me to protect myself, but the shock at my error kept me from it. I slammed into an obsidian wall and heard a bone in my right forearm crack. I clutched the limb to my chest, but Kun spun me again, smashing my flank into a low wall. Ribs crunched with that impact and I felt something inside go, as well. Kun was enjoying himself, probably for the first time in millennia, the very thought of which made me vomit. Kun's laughter echoed through his stronghold as he pitched me around, dancing me and rolling me back and forth across the courtyard. I thought his actions were haphazard, especially when he lifted me into the air, then dashed me down, shattering my left leg, but even through the pain I had a clarity of mind. He wanted me thinking, not dead, yet, and that made my stomach roll again. Eventually, like a child tiring of a toy, he let me go." - Corran Horn – I,Jedi
And what do Sylvar and Corran Horn have to their name that would make this impressive?
He was also quite capable of force choking Odan-Urr to death, immediately after having been attacked with Sever Force / Wall of Light by one of the most proficient users of the aforementioned ability:
I call it a lucky shot. Odan-Urr was not prepared for a counter-attack, so he didn’t have his Force shields raised. This is supported by the fact that Kun was incapable of penetrating the defenses of Ood Bnar, a less powerful Jedi than Odan-Urr:
A Jedi Master is afforded a great deal of respect within the Order, regardless of how long he holds that status. The station of Master has no “ranks”, though some Jedi Masters have more authority than others due to their individual reputation. Master Yoda and Master Mace Windu are two examples in the Rise of the Empire era, as are Master Odan-Urr and Master Vodo-Siosk Baas in the Old Republic era.
...
Much of the respect Jedi Masters garner within their respective Orders relates to their strength in the Force.
―Power of the Jedi Sourcebook
Let’s look at another character’s performance against Ood Bnar, shall we? Here is a link to a blog posted by fellow user Beniboybling explaining the circumstances of the fight between Executor Sedriss and Ood:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t635541.html
Even though it does not prove Sedriss is Kun’s superior in itself since he was amplified by the darkness in the atmosphere, it does suggest some sort of parity between the two darksiders. This becomes relevant when we consider Sidious’ thoughts on Sedriss:
As leader of my Dark Side Adepts, Military Executioner Sedriss has been my most loyal and is commended for reviving me here on Byss. But for all his usefulness. Sedriss is only a moderate Force-sensitive, a capable errand boy but hardly the stuff of a Sith apprentice.
- Jedi V Sith: Essential Guide to The Force
So he evidently thinks less of Sedriss than he does of Maul, Dooku, or Vader. I now wonder how Exar is going to hurt Sidious, when he latter couldn’t hurt himself with his most potent attack:
Force lightning spat from the Emperor’s gray fingers, surrounding Yoda in a blue nimbus. But Yoda had faced Force lightning before. To deflect the first bolts, he had to stop his intended strike at the Emperor. Once his initial surprise was over, he reached out to the living Force. The lightning bent, arcing back toward the Emperor.
“Destroy you, I will,” Yoda said grimly. “Just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.”
The Sith Lord only redoubled his attack. Hurling Force lightning, the Emperor backed away, to the very edge of the platform. Following him was like walking against hurricane winds. Never had Yoda faced one so strong in the dark side. Before he came within reach, a particularly strong blast knocked Yoda out of the pod.
-Revenge of the Sith junior novel
Note the underlined parts. Sidious' only reaction to being blasted with his own lightning is to intensify his lightning further, meaning it was not worth the effort to even attempt to deflect it back, indicating it was completely harmless to him. In the same fight, he was also hit in the face with an even more powerful Force attack, and still didn't receive a scratch (Link)
I wonder how his infinitely weaker apprentices – and Kun, who is on their level – are going to hurt Sidious with his level of Barrier feats.
It should also be noted that Sidious has done this to Maul:
And this to Dooku:
Two beings in the same league as Kun. I see no reason why he couldn’t manhandle Kun the same way. If anyone is getting Odan-Urr’d here, it’s Exar Kun. The latter also wouldn’t be able to harm Sidious, unless the latter was caught off-guard. I guess Exar Kun could succeed in killing Sidious this way, but again, the chances of that happening aren’t very high. Sidious would shrug off Kun’s attacks if he had a proper Force barrier active.
And yes, Maul knows Force lightning, so there’s no reason to dismiss him being an actual apprentice:
And, really, he can also do it to a greater amount of numbers, should the need arise:As his eyes adjusted, Streen saw that all twelve of the Jedi candidates were limned with the faintest sheen of an iridescent blue glow that grew brighter as the new Jedi converged around Exar Kun. "Even joined together, you are too weak to fight me!" the shadowy man said. Streen felt his throat constrict, his windpipe close. He choked, unable to breathe. The black silhouette turned, staring at those who resisted him. The Jedi trainees grasped their throats, straining to breathe, their faces darkening with the effort. - Jedi Academy: Champions of the Force
So even his rather powerless spirit has absolutely no problems with force choking twelve people at once.
I don’t see how this changes anything. If Exar Kun’s living incarnation isn’t able to harm Sidious, then neither is his weakened spirit.
But telekinesis isn't the only thing Kun has up his sleeve: He casually blasts Aleema Keto across the room with an application of Sith Magic, rendering the Sith Witch unconscious for a nice amount of time [during which he dueled Ulic]:In his spirit form, he was capable of draining Gantoris, one of Luke's students, so thoroughly, that all which remained was a "crisped corpse" of the former Jedi apprentice:
"If you think that weapon will have any effect on me," Kun said, "perhaps you should ask your friend Gantoris — or have you forgotten what happened to him when he defied me?" A vision flashed through Streen's mind: Gantoris's crisped corpse incinerated from the inside out, his body turned to ash from the incredible fires of the dark side." - Jedi Academy: Champions of the Force.
Following Kun's words, his attack on Gantoris happened while the latter attempted to attack him with a lightsaber (the weapon mentioned above). That means Kun is probably capable of performing such attacks in combat, even though his most impressive application of the ability was his draining of the Massassi on Yavin 4. A feat, by the way, that has – up to this date – only been replicated or topped by the likes of Vitiate, Nihilus and – considering Byss – Sidious himself.
There’s no reason to assume the quote claiming Kun couldn’t penetrate Ood’s Force barriers would be limited to Telekinesis. All of Kun’s Force powers and lightsaber were incapable of penetrating Ood’s defences, and thus, they aren’t going to harm Sidious either.
And since you apparently conceded Sidious’ superiority in Drain powers, what prevents him from draining Kun to death?
However, the Sith Lord had more abilities that came in handy for direct confrontation:"Kyp made a dismissive gesture with one hand, and a sudden wave of dark ripples splashed across the air like the shock front from a concussion grenade. Luke stumbled backward. The lightsaber turned cold in his hand. Frost crystals grew in feathery patterns around the handle. At the core of the brilliant green blade a shadow appeared, a black disease rotting away the purity of the beam. The humming blade sputtered, sounding like a sickly cough. The black taint rapidly grew stronger, swallowing up the green beam. With a fizzle of sparks Luke's lightsaber died." - Jedi Academy: Dark Apprentice
While it was Kyp using the ability, it was definitely Kun who taught him how to do that. This could come in quite handy, if one is inclined to combat opponents armed with lightsabers.
That would appear to be a combination of Cryokinesis and Dark side tendrils. The latter he already can resist, and as for the former, he knows Pyrokinesis to counter:
From the head of the table, Pax Teem gawked at him as if he might be a creature escaped from his most horrifying nightmare. And yet he wouldn't be the first to taste Plagueis's blade but the last; once he had been forced to watch the rest of his party butchered, from hooves to eyestalks; the painted ceiling brought down by Sidious's Force pull; the flames of a gentle gas blaze in the room's fireplace incited to a blistering inferno that Sidious tugged behind him as he soared from the table to the floor and closed on his final victim.
In desperate flight from the Sith and the spreading flames, Pax Teem had backed himself to a tall window framed by floor-to-ceiling curtains. Entreaties of whatever sort tried to thrust themselves through his stricken voice box and past his square teeth, but none succeeded.
Deactivating the lightsaber, Sidious beckoned the flames with his fingers, encouraging them to leap from the table to the curtains. A bleating scream finally emerged from Teem's narrow muzzle of a mouth as the blazing fabric collapsed around him, and Sidious watched him roast to death.
-Darth Plagueis
He could also use Convection to manipulate the heat of objects:
"Not fast enough," Sidious said as a stone smashed into Maul's lower back.
Maul crouched and grabbed the nearest rock. He no sooner lifted it from the ground than he felt it burning into his hand. He yelped as he reflexively opened his fingers and let the rock fall. How could the rock have generated such intense heat? He suspected it was his Master's trickery.
-The Wrath of Darth Maul
His Master, Plagueis, knew how to manipulate the heat of his own body and the air around him. He later passed this knowledge onto Sidious:
The obedient orphan stood shivering in swirling snow. Around him rose ice pinnacles shaped like jagged teeth; a glacial wind howled through them. Plagueis stood nearby, flakes of snow and ice gyrating around him but never lighting on him, melting before they reached him.
-Darth Plagueis
Sidious served for many decades as the apprentice of Darth Plagueis, learning diligently at the feet of his Master. Once he possessed all of Plagueis' secrets, he retired him.
-Insider #88: Heritage of the Sith
And Sidious is most definitely familiar with the Cryokinesis technique from the writings in Book of the Sith. He won’t be caught off-guard, and knows a defence. Kun won’t be disabling his lightsaber with the Force.
Even if he somehow pulled it off, Sidious would pull out another lightsaber, or simply dispose of Kun with his awesome command of the Force. And there’s nothing preventing Sidious from disabling Kun’s lightsaber with Cryokinesis, is there?
Though what follows there would even be more fun:"With the Sun Crusher looming behind him, Kyp stretched out both hands and blasted Luke with lightning bolts like black cracks in the Force. Dark tendrils rose up from gaps in the temple flagstones, fanged, illusory vipers that struck at him from all sides. Luke cried out and tried to strike back, but the shadow of Exar Kun joined the attack, adding more deadly force.The ancient Dark Lord of the Sith lashed out with waves of blackness, driving long icicles of frozen poison into Luke's body.He thrashed, but felt helpless. To lose control to anger and desperation would be as great a failure as if he did nothing at all. Luke called upon the powers that Yoda and Obi-Wan had taught him - but everything he did, every skillful technique, failed utterly." - Jedi Academy: Dark Apprentice
Emphasis mine.
Again: The first ability used by Kyp is clearly something Kun did teach him. And then, the Dark Lord himself joins the fray to attack Luke with another variant of Sith magic and Luke utterly fails do defend himself, trying everything he had learned from no other than Yoda. And this, let me remind you, is post-DE Luke Skywalker who managed to outduel DE Sidious and – joined by his sister – managed to overcome the Sith Lord in direct confrontation. Here, he is chanceless, and not only because Kyp and Kun joined powers to defeat him, but because he is attacked with techniques he doesn't know any defense against.
Again, the tendrils aren’t going to do anything. As for the spirit-ripping, Sidious – unlike Luke – knows spirit-related techniques that he studied from holocrons:
Chancellor Palpatine spent many years studying ancient Holocrons to learn the secrets of the Sith. The Holocrons enabled him to channel Sith spirits, who taught him how to harness dark-side energy and release lethal bolts of lightning.
-The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded
So he pull the spirits of the ancient Sith from the netherworld of the Force for extra power, a practise he apparently used in his duel against Yoda:
When those blades met, it was more than Yoda against Palpatine, more the millennia of Sith against the legions of Jedi; this was the expression of the fundamental conflict of the universe itself.
-Revenge of the Sith novelization
He also seemed to pull this off during a ritual in Sithisis:
So it seems Sidious can access the netherworld of the Force at any moment and draw power from the beings existing in there. He should also logically have rediscovered Essence Transfer by this point, given that Dooku found Darth Andeddu’s holocron – which contained the ability – and Sidious is able to read Dooku’s thoughts from across the galaxy without the latter’s notice:
Even via hologram, the flickering figure of Darth Sidious, hideous in blue and shadows, seemed to strip his false youth away, leaving his bones brittle, his joints worn thin and knotted with tension. "These are the envoys from Troxar," his Master said. How could he know? Dooku didn't ask. Darth Sidious knew. He always knew.
-Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
With all of this, coupled with his immeasurable willpower which I'll elaborate on later, I wonder how Kun is going to succeed with his technique.
And this still not anything Exar Kun has to offer, given that he has his amulets for this fight. If I may remind you:So first off: Contrary to what has been claimed in this thread, Kun is not utilizing the power present within the temple. It's the "dark rage that fills his own heart" that is magnified by the amulet. Which is quite enough to create huge explosions of force energy (marked orange / red) that blow giants junks of debris out of the temple wall (marked green) and fling around / atomize Massassi warriors on the spot (marked yellow).
Where do you see the Massassi being atomized? I see only their silhouettes, which does not indicate atomization in the slightest. You conveniently left out the next page where Exar Kun remarks on the flesh of his hand being burned. Given that we never see what happened to the Massassi after this, it is far more likely they were burned rather than atomized.
But this is really beside the point. As with all of Kun’s other abilities, they could not penetrate Bnar’s Force shields, so neither are they penetrating Sidious’.
Of course, Exar Kun also had some less obvious means of utilizing Sith Magic. How about crowd-controlling a crowd that contained ten-thousands if not more than a hundred-thousand people with a silently executed Sith spell:
I wonder how Kun could put Sidious in stasis, since the latter possesses enormous willpower – far surpassing that of Kun’s – which is noted to be a key component in resisting certain Force powers:
Force Stasis is generated from the mind, and directly affect the target with the Force. It is not an energy-based power, so it can be resisted with sheer Force of will.
Among Sidious’ mental resistance feats include resisting his soon-to-be Master as an untrained teenager, and resisting the divine will of the Force. No other being in the mythos has equal showings.
As for offensive telepathy, he has probed the mind of Yoda despite the latter’s attempts to block him out, without the latter’s notice, and later caged his mind inside a vision; dominating the millions of people of Byss from across the galaxy; preventing ten thousand Jedi from fully accessing the Force with his mind; and most impressively, overpowering the will of the Force (albeit with the aid of his Master, but there is reason to believe he could’ve done this by himself). I’ve not seen anything comparable from Kun. Chances are Sidious will mentally enslave him and he would never even know it.
And in case you still doubt the unbalancing of the Force feat, a fellow member ILS explained it in two posts far more eloquently than I could:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15995955#post15995955
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15996605#post15996605
So at this point, I do really wonder how Sidious, who had just been dishing out some force lightning and telekinesis until RotS, does compare to that arsenal of offensive force powers.
Quality > Quantity; Sidious > Kun
Even assuming that he is "the most powerful Sith Lord ever", I still don't see him defending himself against Kun's usual force attacks, which were already impressive when coming from neophyte Kyp Durron or Kun's powerless spirit. Much less do I see Sidious surviving amulet blasts that seem to be wide and powerful enough to level entire buildings.
I’ve already proven he can tank and defend against all of Kun’s attacks, and Sidious can one-shot Kun with Telekinesis or Force lightning.
In case you still think, that Sidious will even be capable of utilizing the force in a offensive fashion, you may want to check Kun's force defense. Being attacked with "the most devastating attack possible using the powers of the light side" (Odan-Urr, Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, p.81), he merely recovers in split-seconds to kill his assailant:
First of all, I doubt Sidious would even know such a technique, so I don’t see what use the knowledge to defend against it has here. Second, Kun did not even defend against it, since Odan-Urr did not have the time to properly employ it. Everytime we see it used in TotJ against another Force wielder, it either required the combined effort of multiple Jedi:
Or for the target to be not defending himself at all, be completely unfocused in combat and probably not even thinking clearly:
Odan-Urr couldn’t have possibly been able to complete his technique when he was being Force Wounded to death. Kun didn’t tank anything there. I only saw him getting knocked on his ass by Odan-Urr, despite having ample time to prepare for combat and ready his Force defences when Nomi and Odan-Urr were chatting:
I’m not even sure Kun could’ve taken on Odan-Urr in a proper fight given the way the latter handled him. Which is relevant, considering Yoda is more powerful than Odan-Urr and Sidious is as powerful as Yoda:
Yoda's ability to use the Force is greater than that of any other Jedi.
-The Legendary Yoda
Meet Yoda. He is the most powerful Jedi.
-Blast Off!
The greatest Jedi: Yoda, defender of the galaxy, master of the Force, and the greatest Jedi who had ever lived.
-The Legendary Yoda
Yoda's knowledge of the Force makes him just as powerful as Darth Sidious.
-Mysteries of the Jedi
When Aleema Keto attacks him with deadly Sith Magic, he apparently just walks through the attack or instantly shrugs it off:Which may not be too impressive, unless one remembers, what Aleema was capable of doing with her force attacks:
Instantly turning people into charred meat doesn't seem to be something to scoff at. Which is, coincidentally, exactly what Exar Kun seems to do when having a similar blast fired at him...
As mentioned before, Sidous is more powerful than Aleema, so Kun’t exactly be “shrugging off” his lightning blasts. Unless there’s some evidence to suggest he could tank lightsaber hits, I don’t see how he’s going to survive something which could do this:
Now Anakin was at Mace's shoulder. Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.
Palpatine's eyes glowed with power, casting a yellow glare that burned back the rain from around them. "He is a traitor, Anakin. Destroy him."
"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny."
-Revenge of the Sith novelization
But of course, maybe this contest will be decided not by the strength in the Force of the contestants, but with the lightsaber skill the two Sith Lords have to offer. Kun, even in his apprentice days is already a "master swordsman" and the best lightsaber duelist Vodo has trained in 600 years.
Already addressed this.
His most notable feat is, probably, his stalemate against Ulic Qel-Droma, who inspired respect even in his most notorious enemies ("Jedi Vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force", p.127):Sylvar, at that point in time, absolutely hated Ulic Qel-Droma, yet, she still regarded him asthe greatest Jedi of his era. And that was before he took the path to the Dark Side and became an even more formidable combatant.
I don’t see how Sylvar’s opinion would make it true. Especially considering – when it came down to serious combat – Kun only defeated a holding back Vodo due to the latter’s stamina issues:
But Master Vodo-Siosk Baas stepped onto the floor: the diminutive Jedi would stand against him. Exar Kun battled his old Master, using a doublebladed lightsaber and all the Sith tricks he had learned. He tried to lure Vodo to join his Sith cause, but the Jedi Master refused. As the fight continued, Vodo grew weaker and Kun gained strength. Finally, just as Vodo vowed he would defeat Exar Kun, the Dark Lord struck with his lightsaber and killed his teacher.
-The Essential Chronology
It should also be noted that Kun tried all of his Force abilities as well – from amulet blasts to dark side tendrils – and Vodo apparently resisted it all. That’s two individuals less powerful than Yoda (and by proxy, Sidious) as per accolades Kun has failed to overpower.
But back to the topic of lightsaber combat, I don’t see what Vodo has going for him that would mark him as an equal or superior to the likes of Count Dooku or Mace Windu, the latter being at the mercy of Sidious’ bladework. So Kun has no advantage over Sidious in raw skill.
But before we discuss Ulic, let us have a look at Kun's weapon and style. As we all know, Kun utilized a saber stuff. Darth Maul, the other famous user of the weapon, was so kind to share his thoughts on that lightsaber design with us:"Maul raised his own weapon, the double-bladed lightsaber, and triggered the power control. Twin lances of pure energy boiled forth, hissing and crack-ling in crimson loops that began and ended at the two flux apertures on either end of the device. Any Jedi Knight could wield a single-bladed lightsaber; only a master fighter could use the weapon first designed by the legendary Dark Lord Exar Kun millennia ago. Unless one was in perfect attunement with it, the weapon could be as deadly to the user as to the opponent." - Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter
Emphasis mine.
I'm going to assume, that this thoughts on the design spawn from Maul's thoughts rather than being information given by the narrator of the story himself. Still, Maul muses that one needs to be a master of lightsaber combat to handle the weapon, and – on top of that – it needs "perfect attunement" with it, not to become a liability for its wielder."Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force" describes the nature of the weapon an its use in combat quite clearly (p.107 / 108):
With more detail to be found in the "Book of Sith" (p.85):
While putting emphasis on the fact, that the weapon is difficult to handle, this likewise discribes how it is used. Notice that Exar Kun's style to wield the lightsaber (one-handed, fast) is fundamentally different from the style described here. In addition, Kun can adjust the length and intensity of the weapon on the fly, making him very possibly the least predictable opponent one can face in a lightsaber duel.
Sidious is confirmed to be a master of every weapon and every style, and has experience against and with staff weapons, when he fought Savage Opress and the Kursids, so Kun wielding a saberstaff would pose no threat to him:
"Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style."
-Nick Gillard
As for Kun’s “unorthodoxy”, Sidious himself possesses the same traits in his fighting style:
“It took a really long time for Nick (Gillard) to work out Sidious' fighting style, and he has a style that's constantly changing. His style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous - he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him."
-George Lucas
“He's better than Yoda in a way because he has the extra power of the dark side," Gillard explains. "His character is so shrouded that his fighting style should be shrouded as well. The Emperor is deadly dangerous."
-Nick Gillard
Sidious’ knowledge of every lightsaber form there is would obviously extend to Tràkata, so Kun won’t catch him by surprise there. In the end, Sidious is prepared for every trick, every ace Kun has up his sleeve, and can retaliate in kind.
And since the particular points have been argued here, let me leave my 2 cents about Kun's strength and speed:
Bring it on.
Even at the beginning of his career, Exar Kun seemed to have been rather strong:I don't know how many lightsaber duels you have seen, in which the opponents clashed with such brutal force, that the sound could have been heared over the distance of kilometers, but Sylvar and Exar can definitely do the job. And their duel ends in a rather special fashion:
Notice that Sylvar is strong enough to put her claws through Exar Kun's helmet, shattering it in the process. And then Kun, empowered by his anger, physically overpowers her. Kun's next "strength feat" would be his stalemate with Ulic Qel-Droma, who is quite the powerhouse in terms of physical strength. Here we have a picture of three Jedi trying to hold Ulic down, which gives them some difficulty.
This is quite impressive for Ulic's part on his own. However, one of those Jedi (the middle one), happens to be Qrrrl Toq, who is quite the extraordinary type when it comes to physical strength:
So the guy can just press five human males to a wall, while those are leaving the ground (see feet in the picture) with a rather large piece of metal – one-handed, while not particularly caring about what he does, casually cutting them down with the lightsaber in his other hand. Clearly some superhuman demonstration of strength. Not that Ulic himself was incapable of similary feats on his own:
Tossing a Mandalorian in full armor around like a ragdoll, using only one hand? No problem for Ulic. The last time I've seen somebody overpowering people that way, it was Darth Vader, aided by his mechanical limbs. Of course, Kun appears to be rather indimidating physically as well, given his "imposing figure" (see above) and his own demonstration of strength:
Destroying a Sith amulet with his fists might not seem that impressive, unless you think about the fact, that those things are crafted to ensure the survival of the knowledge stored within. It's also rather telling that Kun would "sacrifice" such an object. He probably wouldn't have done so if it had to offer new knowledge for him.
And then, there is this little incident here:
Kun, apparently, puts his fingers through the skull of the Chancellor and then lifts him up into the air, using him as some sort of hand-puppet, while the weight of the alien being sustained by his fingers alone. Not too shabby, even if it isn't compareably to the feats above.
Kun also has this:
Breaking Mandalorian Iron. However, he only achieved this by bumping up the intensity of his lightsaber to its maximum. Exar Kun was incapable of breaking MI with solely his natural strength, as can be observed from the comic when he failed on his first try. This is very clearly Kun's limit, so no other strength feats from him need to be mentioned. This is relevant because what Kun accomplished is not an isolated case:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JeuZz6J5tvc&t=2m3s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhYSP5XqFUE&t=0m50s
Here we have General Grievous and Count Dooku doing the same, with apparently greater ease than Kun. Dooku might be even stronger than Grievous given his casual blocking of the latter’s attacks, his arm not moving a single millimeter by the force of Grievous’ blows:
What these three characters all have in common is that they have all been manhandled by Savage Opress:
A less powerful version of the Savage Sidious pushed back when he came at him with a downward vertical jumping attack, with one hand:
I hope you see where I’m going with this. Sidious would break Kun’s bones with one strike.
I've already provided a "speed feat" for Kun, although I have mentioned myself, that it probably isn't the most impressive demonstration of Force speed. Yet, you might watch Ulic Qel-Droma (Exar Kun's equal in terms of lightsaber combat) in action:When being confronted with Warb Null and five soldierst of the Naddist Cult...
...Ulic's reaction looks like that:
So let me point that out for you: The two brighter spots in the middle of the circle of Ulic's blade are the two missing soldiers. So Ulic hacks five soldiers to pieces in split seconds, indicated by the fact, that he manages to cut two of them down, before the weapon of his previous victim is even on its way to the ground. I'd say, that is even faster than Sidious "speed blitz", that – according to the "Revenge of the Sith"-novelization – looked like this:
"Saesee Tiin's head bounced when it hit the floor. Smoke curled from the neck, and from the twin stumps ofthe horns, severed just below the chin. Kit Fisto gasped, "Saesee!" The headless corpse, still standing, twisted as its knees buckled, and a thin sigh escaped from its trachea as it folded to the floor. "It doesn't..." Agen Kolar swayed. His emerald blade shrank away, and the handgrip tumbledfrom his opening fingers. A small, neat hole in the middle of his forehead leaked smoke, showing light from the back of his head."... hurt..." He pitched forward onto his face, and lay still." - Revenge of the Sith Novelization
Emphasis mine.
This is what happens between Sidious hitting Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar. Kit Fisto speaks the name of his fallen comrade, the corpse does collapse, the onlookers notice the sigh escaping from the decapitated body and then Kolar is hit. Ulic kills two people before the guy he killed first can drop his weapon...
Random Naddists aren’t comparable to the greatest Jedi of the PT times, lol. 2/3 of them have comparable showings to Ulic’s.
Kit Fisto stomping MagnnaGuards:
To the rear of the car, where Grievous's pair of MagnaGuards had made the mistake of pitting themselves against Kit Fisto, the Nautolan's blade was a cyclone of blazing blue light.Resistant to the energy outpourings of a lightsaber, the phrik alloy staffs were potent weapons, but like any weapon they needed to find their target, and Kit simply wasn't allowing that. In moves a Twi'lek dancer might envy, he spun around the guards, claiming a limb from both with each rotation: left legs, right arms, right legs...
The speed of the train saw to the rest, ultimately whisking the droids into the canyon like insects blown from the windscreen of a speeder bike.
-Labyrinth of Evil[/I]
Agen Kolar stomping Quinlan Vos:
You also have a very clear policy against secondary sources like novelizations when they depict things differently than the movie. So I must wonder why you would choose to quote the novel over the movie, but dismiss the below source because it contradicts the episode. Double standards, perhaps? Anyway, in the movie Sidious kills Kolar and Tiin far faster than in the novel. And this isn’t Sidious’ only demonstration of speed vastly beyond that of Kun. Another would be this:
Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.
Maul’s saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor.
-Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy
I know you dismiss this because it somehow “contradicts” the TCW episode. But where is the contradiction? Simply because he didn’t blitz Maul in the episode doesn’t mean he couldn’t have. Even the supplementary material supports the novel version of the fight as legit:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/4/48954/4972641-sid+vs+maul+savage+maul+gallery.jpg
http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11120/111205740/5209674-8096681939-maul%25.PNG
http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11120/111205740/5209673-7545404486-sidio.PNG
So even when Maul is enraged and supposedly contending equally with Sidious, the latter is in fact still toying with him. The novelization depicts what would have happened if Sidious had gone all-out. It is valid. Sidious’ speed would allow him to defeat Kun in only a few strikes.
And in the topic of speed, let’s talk about the speed of Sidious’ Force lightning. Sidious has shown he is able to unleash lightning even a combat-ready Yoda has a hard time reacting to. Yoda is among the fastest characters in the mythos, and would dance circles around Kun. He has already proven this when he rendered himself literally untouchable by three Council Masters – each in Exar Kun’s tier of speed:
Three members of the council-Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba, excellent fighters all-had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured. Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him.
-Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter
But his best speed feat is probably disarming Sidious himself, a being who has also speedblitzed three Council Masters, in just three blows:
An end, I must make. Yoda redoubled the speed of his blows. Palpatine parried one, then another — and then the red lightsaber spun out of his hands and over the edge. Yoda raised his weapon for the final blow.
-Revenge of the Sith junior novelization
And yet, two out of three times, this happened:
Kun would never even see it coming.
I hope it is clear enough now, why I don't see Sidious winning this.
Kun literally has no chance here. In saber combat, he’s outclassed in skill, strength and speed – the latter two so much Kun would literally lose after a single stroke from Sidious. In the Force, Kun has no way of harming Sidious, and the latter can literally ragdoll and one-shot him before he has any chance of getting his defences up. This will be one of the most one-sided slaughters ever.
Darth Sidious stomps Exar Kun. And I mean stomps.
