Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Maybe so, but it's clear Palpatine didn't go all-out until the end at the novel where he all but speedblitzed Maul, who ended up seeing "more than countless" blades. Coupled with other sources, I think Filoni's quote makes it clear Palpatine wasn't going all-out from the start. In fact, in the show, the reason the brothers even managed to fight Sidious at all is because he let them down from his telekinetic grip. Their two "hits" were absolutely inconsequential to the result of the fight.
The novel isn't canon, the final episode is. Especially where the novel contradicts the episode, and in this case it does.
According to the novel Maul was still fighting with a single Saber. That didn't happen. According to the novel, Maul got disarmed by being speed blitzed. That didn't happen, and in fact they were fighting pretty equally in terms of speed and skill. In the end Sidious disarmed Maul via superior strength.
Filoni's quotes don't suggest anything of the sort.
The telekinetic grip is fair point, and there's certainly a good case to say he held back with his Tk. But then given he used his Tk in the fight to KO Maul so he could finish off Savage, kind of points to Sidious not holding back.
In any case it wasn't like Yoda freezing Ventress and taking her weapons away from her, then giving them back at will. Sids was actively keeping the brothers against the wall, and they were not in reach of Saber or anything.
The 2 hits being inconsequential to the end result is also inconsequential to the topic at hand.
Originally posted by SunRazer
2. He never said if he goes all-out, sure, but he states the brothers can't touch Sidious and can't compete with him, and that's presumably referring to an all-out scenario. You're hurting your argument by denying that it's a reference to all-out, because then Filoni would be saying the brothers can't compete with Sidious even if he didn't go all-out.
What?
Filoni saying the Brothers can't compete with Sidious in no way implies that he was holding back the whole time. Simply because it was a very one sided fight as it was.
Originally posted by SunRazer
[B3. He also thinks any competent Jedi Council Member would easily beat RotJ Luke. Not sure what he thinks of Council Members as a whole, but his mentioning Savage putting up a fight has no relevance as to whether Sidious held back or not. As it is, Sidious held back against Savage based on the novel and Filoni's suggestions, and he didn't against the Jedi Masters. [/B]
We're not talking about Filoni's general rankings here. We're talking about whether he claims/thinks Sidious was holding back against them. The fact that he puts Opress's performance against Sidious ABOVE Fisto/Tiin/Kolar's performance, suggests he's not claiming that.
Because whatever you or I think of Filoni's rankings, it's pretty clear to anyone (you, me or Filoni) that Sidious wasn't holding back against Tiin/Fisto/Kolar. And yet that's the comparison Filoni made.
Now don't get me wrong, I do believe there were points in the fight where Sidious was playing around. Like his one on one with Opress, or the end of the Maul fight where he's just tossing Maul around. But that's a far cry from claiming Sidious was holding back the whole time.
And there's no evidence claiming that either.
Take that debate to the appropriate thread, plz. I'd rather not have anything obstruct the present discussion about Kun vs. Sidious. excellent
Originally posted by Darth Thor
The novel isn't canon, the final episode is. Especially where the novel contradicts the episode, and in this case it does.According to the novel Maul was still fighting with a single Saber. That didn't happen. According to the novel, Maul got disarmed by being speed blitzed. That didn't happen, and in fact they were fighting pretty equally in terms of speed and skill. In the end Sidious disarmed Maul via superior strength.
Filoni's quotes don't suggest anything of the sort.
The telekinetic grip is fair point, and there's certainly a good case to say he held back with his Tk. But then given he used his Tk in the fight to KO Maul so he could finish off Savage, kind of points to Sidious not holding back.
In any case it wasn't like Yoda freezing Ventress and taking her weapons away from her, then giving them back at will. Sids was actively keeping the brothers against the wall, and they were not in reach of Saber or anything.
The 2 hits being inconsequential to the end result is also inconsequential to the topic at hand.
We're discussing Legends, not Canon lol. The novel is Legends - it doesn't become invalidated just through a contradiction with the show, because Legends isn't divided into that old G, T, C-canon etc. anymore. They're both different interpretations of the fight - that's it. Otherwise, the novel was written for no purpose and has no value.
Filoni's quotes also state the brothers can't even touch him, but they did - twice. As I said, if you take all of Filoni's quotes and the novel, and actually use something called inference (because you don't get everything served up on a plate in life), then you will realize that Sidious held back until the climax clash with Maul at the end.
If Sidious was unrestrained in his usage of telekinesis, he'd be endlessly throwing the brothers around until they died of brain damage and broken bones.
That doesn't have any relevancy to the point in the absolute slightest. Sidious using telekinesis actively and them not being within saber range isn't related to whether or not Sidious held back. Everybody uses telekinesis actively, lol.
What?Filoni saying the Brothers can't compete with Sidious in no way implies that he was holding back the whole time. Simply because it was a very one sided fight as it was.
The brothers were competing, lol, and they did touch Sidious. So unless Filoni was referring to Sidious going all-out, then his quotes would contradict his very show (which is the one you consider canon).
We're not talking about Filoni's general rankings here. We're talking about whether he claims/thinks Sidious was holding back against them. The fact that he puts Opress's performance against Sidious ABOVE Fisto/Tiin/Kolar's performance, suggests he's not claiming that.Because whatever you or I think of Filoni's rankings, it's pretty clear to anyone (you, me or Filoni) that Sidious wasn't holding back against Tiin/Fisto/Kolar. And yet that's the comparison Filoni made.
Filoni saying Savage lasted longer isn't relevant to whether or not Sidious held back, to be honest. Savage put up a better fight against Sidious who was holding back; the others were cut down immediately by a Sidious who wasn't holding back.
Now don't get me wrong, I do believe there were points in the fight where Sidious was playing around. Like his one on one with Opress, or the end of the Maul fight where he's just tossing Maul around. But that's a far cry from claiming Sidious was holding back the whole time.And there's no evidence claiming that either.
Sidious didn't hold back the entire time. Even in the novel, he gradually increased his speed during the final clash with Maul. I agree around there he was less restrained, but I just think it's almost obvious he was holding back in the rest of the contest. In some points, it's more obvious, sure, but in the end this seems to be subjective and it's derailing the thread, so I say we just agree to disagree here.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nai appears to have conceded tbh.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Care to elaborate? The only (effective) Force power Exar Kun has that Sidious doesn't is the Force Blast, however he is more than capable of not only replicating but surpassing it's destructive effects with Force Lightning.
Oh. Is he now? Care to provide some proof for that claim? Because, you see, last time I checked Kun was blasting holes through giant beasts and metre-thick temple walls and obliterating Massassi with room-sized beams of force energy. This in a point in time where he didn't have much control over his amulets. He also simply knocked out Aleema Keto with a casual blast of dark side energy, did quite the same to Sylvar and outright killed Odan-Urr with a single force attack. I'm not really certain where RotS Sidious has demonstrated destructive abilities with his force lightning on a similar level. He doesn't really leave nothing but ashes behind, when firing it at Mace Windu, does he? Nor does he turn Yoda into a charred skeleton when hitting the Jedi Master with a barrage.
That aside: The force abilities of Exar Kun's half-mad and powerless spirit were enough to simply incinerate Gantoris who had dared to attack him. One Sith magic attack from Kun's spirit ripped Luke's spirit from his body. He managed to outright mind-control Streen. And, of course, managed to aid Kyp Durron in recovering the Sun Crusher from the atmosphere of a gas giant as well as - shortly before his final banishment - almost chocking Luke's students to death collectively.
Why should that matter, when Sidious' Force defenses are logically superior?
How is Sidious' force defense "logically superior" exactly? You really need to explain that "logic" to me. I, somehow, didn't see Sidious tanking the most powerful light side power there is, just to get up a split second later and deliver an fatal force attack at the 1,000 year old Jedi Master, who just attacked him before. Neither did I see Sidious outright ignoring Sith magic attacks that killed people before (which Kun does, before blasting Aleema down).
Yet not above Sidious' natural ability.
And what exactly will this vast knowledge of the dark side bring to their engagement?
The powers mentioned above would be a good example.
Unique =/= superior. Sidious was able to stalemate with the unique and incredibly advanced fighting style of Mace Windu, and fought toe-to-toe with Yoda, regarded as perhaps the greatest lightsaber duelist in mythos, what does Exar Kun have on these individuals?
He is probably far more powerful in the Force than Mace Windu and comes equipped with an uncanny amount of Dark Side abilities, which would mean an offensive use of the Force beyond force pushes. Something that Sidious, correct me if I'm wrong, has never encountered before.
On top of that, he has been called the "most forbidable student" in terms of lightsaber combat that Vodo ever had, with Vodo being the guy that trained Jedi for four (or six?) centuries. A remark that Vodo makes, after Kun had just defeated him in direct combat, utilizing two lightsabers in unison. So he is exceptionally gifted with the weapon, even when he is nothing more than an apprentice and already capable of handling two lightsabers in unison, which isn't exactly easy.
You may add Kun's lightsaber to the menu, which comes with adjustable blade length and even the intensity of the lightsaber beam, which enables him to strike through the weapons of possible opponents. And, of course, Kun is equiped with his battle armor, that is made of cortosis weave, a material that does resist lightsaber hits, with cortosis being known to be able of causing lightsabers to shorten out. That would at least allow Kun to care much less about getting hit than the people Sidious did encounter before, if not even leave Sidious without a weapon, should he manage to get a hit in on Kun.
Superior speed, strength and agility, more potent Force powers and superior swordsmanship my friend.
i.e. he is his better in every conceivable way.
Thanks for providing that huge amount of proof for your claims. Oh, wait. You didn't. You just assume that this is true, like every other Sidious fanboy. Yet, you can't proof any of it. So? And I'm not your friend, punk.
Those are two of many objective sources on Sidious' superiority over Exar Kun.
The quote from the Insider is completely not canon, so it has no influence on our little debate. And I wonder what "greatest master of evil to ever use the Sith power" should tell me? That there were greater masters of evil, that didn't use the Sith power? Or, that he isn't the "greatest master of Sith power", because - obviously - those and "evil" are two different things. So he was more evil than Kun. Gosh. That will certainly ensure his triumph!
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Bravo sir, hence why the following is to be taken in context:
Because they don't need to. 😐
Let me explain to you the definition of "once" according to the Oxford English Dictionary:
once, adv., conj., adj., and n.
1. At or for one time only
2. At some point or period in the past; on some past occasion; formerly.
Clear? "Once" means that Exar Kun formerly, at a past point, held the title of most powerful Sith Lord, and therefore, he no longer does. This is a retcon (or merely a clarification for misguided individuals such as yourself 😉) with the statement essentially saying that Exar Kun has been replaced, by a superior Sith Lord - Sidious, as the Complete Visual Dictionary surmises, something you've conveniently overlooked:
But I take it you were getting to that when you took the time to respond to my points. 👆
P.S.So you admit that statements referring to Exar Kun's power are outdated and obsolete? If so I approve.
*sigh*
Did it ever occur to you, that the "once" is merely in that sentence, because Exar Kun is dead? He is nothing any longer, so he once was something. This translates into a "retcon" in favour of Sidious how exactly? Right. It doesn't.
To have a retcon, you would need a quote that states Sidious is "the most powerful and dangerous of the Sith Lords". Haven't found it yet, despite of your effort? I'm really sorry, "friend", but that means that your interpretation is...well...your interpretation and nothing more.
@SunRazer
Since I can't directly quote your postings any longer, I will have to handle this in this fashion.
Based on what was he merely holding his own against the duo? Filoni made it clear Palpatine was enjoying himself (as opposed to the circumstance-ridden duel Kenobi had with the brothers on Floruum where he made use of the environment to get them in each other's way and surprised them by attacking aggressively). On top of that, Filoni stated the brothers couldn't touch him:
Apparently, my wording was obscuring my thoughts. It is pretty obvious, that Sidious is superior to the brothers from the moment he owns them both with the force when entering the room. It is also obvious, that he is toying with them, given he already has them against the wall and at his mercy, yet decides to engage in a lightsaber fight with them.
But you are ignoring my entire point: He is just capable of dealing with them because of utilizing his vast superiority in the force to keep them under control. He needs the force to remove Maul from the fight in order to deal with Savage and he needs the force again in order to finally defeat Maul. This is, what the final episode of the series (the highest form of canon) shows. Further thoughts of Filoni on the matter are entirely irrelevant.
If it has been Filonis intention to demonstrate, that Sidious is superior to the brothers with a lightsaber he had all chances to just show it. Just let Sidious fend off Maul with one lightsaber while he kills Savage with the other, for example. Or he could have followed the novel, where Sidious disarms Maul through superior fencing. None of that happens. For a reason, maybe?
Show me where it says in the RotS script that it happens in less than a minute. The fighting is stated to be extremely furious which suggests considerable contention.
I was considering the time "off screen" in the movie for this to happen (between the Chancellor's podium moving up and Yoda jumping away from it in the next scene). I can't see indefinite fighting going on between those two sequences, giving the extremely confined space of the podium, not giving the two opponents much space to manouver.
We also have the fact, that the Clones were alarmed and on their way, which kind of limits the total time for the confrontation between Yoda and Sidious, given that it was over before the soldiers managed to arrive at the scene (which also couldn't have taken more than a few minutes).
And even if we assume that it took minutes: That would still imply that Sidious fencing skills are significantly below that of Yoda. You don't disarm opponents that are on your or close to your own level in fencing.
Moreover, why is this being used to undermine Palpatine unless you can offer me evidence that Kun would fare any better? Yoda is canonically the most skilled Jedi of his time, including the likes of Mace Windu and Anakin Skywalker, and possibly the most skilled Jedi in history
Apparently, you still haven't grasped the reasoning behind my arguments. So let me explain it en detail for you.
There are two essential skillsets that influence the overall duelling ability of a Jedi or Sith. The first would be his handling of a lightsaber in terms of pure fencing ability. The second thing would be the force, which includes precognition, force aided speed, movement and strength, abilities to hinder opponents, offensive force manouvers that can be used during a fight.
My point is, that Sidious is superior in the second field (force) to most characters you can put up against him, while he lacks qualifications in the first field. Thus somebody with more refined abilities in the fencing department can overcome Sidious, even though the Sith Lord might be (vastly) more powerful. Mace Windu, most certainly, doesn't compare to Sidious when it comes to force abilities – but outclasses him when it comes to fencing. Hence he is capable to stalemate the Sith Lord in combat.
The question, for me, is: What happens, when Sidious is confronted with an opponent sporting similar force abilities but a better fencing skill? For me, his fight with Yoda is an example of the exact situation: The Jedi is capable of countering Sidious force abilities, more capable with a blade and hence disarms him after a quite short duel.
Regardless, the fact is simply that even if Yoda was more skilled with a lightsaber, he simply could never have won his battle with Palpatine by his very own admission, and other sources have reiterated that Yoda lost to Palpatine (you could argue it was due to positioning and weight, though):In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force. Finally, he saw the truth.
This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...
just—
didn't—
have it.
He'd never had it. He had lost before he started. He had lost before he was born. The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves. They had become new.
-- Revenge of the Sith Novelization
Defeated, Yoda slunk away into the shadow's of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa.
-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
The full power of the light side and the dark side of the Force are on display during Yoda's clash with Emperor Palpatine. Outmatched, Yoda retreats and waits to train a new champion to lead the fight against evil.
-- Ultimate Star Wars
I've already waited for this to be brought up. Now look at the emphasis I put in on the first quote. We have the "reason" for Yodas defeat given in the text, and it is clearly not the lightsaber ability of force powers of Sidious. How would Yoda have lost because of them "before he started"? Yoda can't "win" in the Senate rotunda, because Sidious has all aces up his sleeve. He controls the Republic politically and military, has similar control about the CIS and benefits from the unballancing of the Force towards the Dark Side. Not to mention, that Yoda couldn't continue the fight because of the Clone Troopers coming to aid Sidious. He has no chance of winning, because of the situation he is in not because of Sidious personal abilities.
That's an outrageous claim. Just because Sidious didn't desire combat means he's less prepared and suited for it? Maul was trained his entire life in the physical arts and was trained to kill Jedi - he was more "suited" to fighting Jedi than Palpatine ever was, yet he was no match for Sidious.
No. He is less prepared for it because he is less prepared for it, due to the training he received by Plagueis. Which should be pretty obvious, if you are familiar with "Star Wars: Darth Plagueis" by James Luceno:
"To Plagueis, lightsaber duels were tedious affairs, full of wasted emotion and needless acrobatics" – James Luceno: Darth Plagueis, Chapter 6.
Obviously Plagueis, who is Sidious master and sole instructor, didn't like lightsaber fighting much. In fact, he didn't see much value in physical confrontation at all:
"The future of the Sith no longer hinges on physical prowess but on political cunning. The new Sith will rule less by brute force than by means of instilling fear." - Darth Plagueis in James Luceno: Darth Plagueis, Chapter 6.
"We are not butchers, Sidious, like some past Sith Lords. We are architects of the future." Darth Plagueis in James Luceno: Darth Plagueis, Chapter 6.
As a logical consequence of that personal opinion, he didn't start training his apprentice in the art from the beginning on:
"Plagueis hadn't allowed his youn apprentice to wield a lightsaber until a few years earlier, but Sidious was brandishing one now, self-constructed of phrik alloy and aurodium, and powered by a synthetic crystal." - James Luceno: "Darth Plagueis", Chapter 13.
The respective action described here happens in 54 BBY. Sidious was born 84 BBY, which means, that he didn't start his lightsaber training, before he was in his late 20s. Then his training consisted mostly of demolishing battle droids, which Sidious doesn't even care about.
Compare that to training with the weapon from an infant age one, countless sparring hours against other force users (the RotS novel states, that Obi-Wan and Anakin spared eachother for thousands of hours), which was the kind of training that pretty much every Jedi Knight (most likely: Kun also) goes through. How could Sidious hope to archive a finesse with the blade in hand compareable to them with less time and less willingness to do so?
cont...
Also, do you have some kind of support for the notion that Kun's talent in bladework is comparable to that of Mace's?
Kun is noted as the most formidable student that Vodo has trained in six centuries. That means he is clearly superior to your average Jedi Knight. In fact, the only people I've seen praised on a similar level are Dooku and – by noting his equality to the Count – Mace Windu. Kun also managed to master the art of wielding two blades, when he was nothing but an apprentice. And I could also point to the fact, that Kun was able to come up with his unique weapon and the corresponding fighting style in six months.
Considering Wallace wrote a significant number of SW sourcebooks in which he detailed Exar Kun, I'd place him well above you in terms of credibility, and it's indeed out-of-universe because as you stated, it doesn't refer to any "in-universe" perspective. And it clearly makes reference to "Episode II" and "the movie", so it's obviously out-of-universe.The fact that it was published in the Insider at all suggests a much higher level of credibility than you're giving, and you're going to have to give me more than an elaborate denial as to why the source isn't credible or reliable.
As for evidence supporting Wallace's/Insider's credibility, well, Jason Fry said so:
"I can help. Yes, that material is C-level canon. (And yes, the Insider is a "legitimate publication."😉 Leland vets the stuff I write for Insider that's fiction or includes new continuity. He's a busy man; I doubt he'd do that for kicks on his break."
I'm actually a fan of philosopher Jacques Derrida, who wrote the famous sentence "Il n'y a pas de hors-texte" – "There is nothing outside of the text". We could modify his thinking just a little bit and come to the conclusion, that there is nothing outside of the original source material. And, hooray, you have already brought the justification to the table, why we can happily ignore the words of Wallace.
"I can help. Yes, that material is C-level canon. (And yes, the Insider is a "legitimate publication."😉 Leland vets the stuff I write for Insider that's fiction or includes new continuity. He's a busy man; I doubt he'd do that for kicks on his break."
Emphasis mine. As the article in question is neither fiction nor includes new continuity, it is not part of the canon. Thanks for debunking your own points. But since you mentioned Leland Chee already, I may give you his thought on the issue, wether or not Sidious is the "most powerful" when it comes to using the Force.
"There's always going to be room for interpretation and debate. Is the power being measured referring to his mastery over the dark side of the Force, the governmental powers he wields as Emperor, or some combination of both?" - Leland Chee aka Tasty Taste
This applies to all quotes regarding Sidious. Have fun collecting the remaining shards of your personal opinion regarding the issue, which should be pretty much smashed right now.
Do you have the full statement from Anderon stating this, in full context and with the source?
I'm afraid: No. The user Lightsnake, a rather vicious fan of Sidious and mentor of our tear Tempest, asked Anderson via e-mail, who he thinks is the most powerful Sith. Anderson replied that, to find that out, you would need a fight between Sidious and Exar Kun. Unfortunately, the topics that contained the scans of the emails were deleted but you they were referenced rather often (just search "Anderson" by user "Lightsnake" with the advanced search function.
And the Endnotes are meant to convey the backstory of Dark Empire, in other words, representing the backstory of a canonical source. Author commentary isn't an unofficial opinion - by your logic, every single author's quotes are unreliable because it's simply their opinion being put to the paper with printing license.
Apparently, I have to point to Derrida once more. And to answer your question: Yes. The authors words are unofficial, unless they are part of the official canon (e.g. written down inside the source material). Outside of that, their opinion is just...their opinion. Which, of course, also applies to the statement of Anderson regarding Kun and Sidious. And in this particular case, we are confronted with a statement from a source written in 1993. There was no time to doubt that Sidious was "the dark sides most powerful expression" then, because there weren't any other Dark Siders known save for Darth Vader and Sidious' pawns in the DE series.
Unfortunately I wasn't around during your multiple denials, but you're wrong. The Dark Side Sourcebook was published in 2001, which is after TotJ's Kun-related publications (1994-1998). Therefore, it indeed takes Exar Kun into consideration.In fact, I've scanned the contents page of The Dark Side Sourcebook, and look who IS included - Exar Kun:
Yes, my fault. I had the Dark Empire Sourcebook in mind when making that statement. Doesn't matter much, though. Notice how a source containing Exar Kun doesn't state that he would be envious of Palpatine. Futhermore, what does "He had succeeded where all others had failed in taming the Dark Side." tell me exactly? That he is the most powerful Dark Side user? Or merely, that he managed to master one aspect of the Dark Side that nobody has mastered before? And how does that even translate into somthing that would give Sidious the edge in terms of combat?
cont...
No, it doesn't, lol. It's a third-person limited perspective,
Yes. I'm very aware of that. But, apparently, you don't know what that means. Let me educate you with a posting I've done before, because I don't like to repeat myself: Click me.
Third person limited narrators are limited to the thoughts and believes of characters within the story the narrate. The character in question here is Vader and we are given Vader's thoughts on the issue.
and the "power that could be his" isn't related to the second and entirely different sentence of "the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known", which couldn't be referring to anything other than Force power, lol.
I like those "lols". You may want to check the quote of Leland Chee above once more and start crying instead. Because this statement can absolutely refer to Sidious' power as Sith Lord and Emperor (political and military power), which – in combination – clearly eclipse that of any other Sith in history.
Vader has never envisioned desiring the militaristic and certainly not the political aspects of the Empire - it's clear he's referring to personal power; Force power. The removal of Sidious would result in Vader's access to all of Sidious's reserves of Force knowledge and experiments and what else, and I'm pretty sure Vader would savor that over controlling the military (which he kind of already does) and the politics of the Empire, which he definitely doesn't want to be involved with unless you can show me a source to suggest it's that.
It's rather funny, what is "clear" for you. Vader is thinking about power that he could inherit from Sidious. Since when can he "inherit" the force power of another person. Yes. He thinks about personal power, but Sidious power is not limited to the force, it's also present in his office – and that is something Vader could inherit. The position as Emperor.
Your interpretation doesn't even make sense. Vader has access to a lot of the knowledge Sidious has already, yet he knows that, due to the injuries he sustained on Mustafar, he could never become as powerful in the Force as Sidious – which already rules your interpretation out. Futhermore, Vader wasn't in control of the Imperial military, which should be apparent from the fact that Tarkin ordered him around in "A New Hope". One doesn't give commands to a superior. And in terms of politics, Sidious was the absolute rule of the Empire post ANH (where he disbanded the Senate), which means there weren't any boring "politics" to cope with. He just needed to utter his will and had it done. That Vader could imagine something like that can be seen as early as in AotC when Anakin tells Padme, that maybe there should be a strong ruler commanding the Galaxy instead of the Senate with its endless debates.
Moreover, the text explicitly states Vader required an apprentice, which would be absolutely irrelevant unless it referred to a personal contest between Vader and Sidious - an actual showdown (not an election, lol). The apprentice would be absolutely meaningless in deciding militaristic/political/other non-Force power related instances. Unless, of course, you'd care to explain to me what difference an apprentice would make in those instances. Do you seriously reckon Vader and an apprentice could take on the whole Empire at once? Or that an apprentice would give Vader presidential election votes?
Erm. Of course, Vader was thinking about getting rid of Sidious in a personal confrontation. What relevance does this have to the kind of power Vader was thinking about, that he could inherit after Sidious was gone, exactly? After killing Sidious, Vader could have just taken the position as Emperor, given that – with Sidious gone – there was nobody left to stop him. He pretty much states that when trying to persuade Luke to join the Dark Side in ESB: "Join me, and together, we can rule the galaxy as father and son!" Emphasis mine. That would have required the removal of Sidious, right?
Excuse me and my twisted logic, but I mentioned the fact that the quote was retconned in TCSWE specifically because of instances such as the one with Vitiate - who is now canonically more powerful than Kun. The fact that the quote is now retconned to saying "once the most powerful of the Dark Lords" means that the quote now only refers up to and of his time, not of all time. Therefore, Palpatine is indeed exempted from the quote.
You missed the point.
Kun's live-time is completely happening during the reign of Vitiate over the (then hidden) Sith Empire. So the time in which Kun was "once the most powerful and dangerous of the Sith Lords" would be part of that time frame, too. Which, logically, means, that Kun, in that particular time, was more powerful and dangerous than Vitiate.
On the subject of the Dark Side Sourcebook - if Nai's reference was to the quote from the Dark Empire Sourcebook from 1993, then yeah, it's an older source without regard for most modern Sith.However, the quote regardless operates under the consideration of prior events, which, while not fleshed out at the time, would've still been considered. Unless there's an explicit contradiction to the quote, it applies regardless. And there is no contradiction, since Exar Kun's quote of supremacy has now been retconned to applying only up to his own time, not beyond.
Erm. Excuse me. At that point in time, the "prior events" were not only "not fleshed out", they didn't even exist as a concept at least nothing outside Lucas own work (later seen in Episode I-III) and perhabs the story of Ulic Qel-Droma (who is mentioned in the Dark Side Sourcebook). They didn't even have somebody watching over the EU canon at that point in time. So how should they have considered things that nobody had thought about, yet? And how can we even consider the idea, that the reference was made with anything other in mind, than the informations available at the time? And that would be, just for example, the existance of just two Sith Lords (Sidious and Vader) and the idea, that there hasn't been a real organisation of Sith Lords before.
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Didn't Mr. Filoni, the new head of canon, state that Sidious was toying with the duo?Disregard that if you like, there's a reason many are still debating whether or not Sidious was toying with them. Still, you can't deny that it would be rather easy for Sheev to take on Maul when Sidious knows his combat style and form in and out.
Oh. As said before, I'm not disregarding the idea, that Sidious was toying with the duo. I'm merely pointing to the question how he did deal with them and – eventually – defeat them. It didn't have to do much with his fencing expertise, but the power gap between the duo and the Sith Lord.
He only took advantage of Saesee Tiin's attempt to read his mind then began his attack afterwards, although i'm not entirely sure if i'm correct.
He turned desperately to Saesee Tiin. "Master Tiin – you're the telepath. What am I thinking right now?" Tiin frowned and cocked his head. His blade dipped. A smear of red-flashing darkness hurtled from behind the desk. Saesee Tiin's head bounced when it hit the floor. Smoke curled from the neck, and from the twin stumps ofthe horns, severed just below the chin.
Kit Fisto gasped, "Saesee!"
The headless corpse, still standing, twisted as its knees buckled, and a thin sigh escaped from its trachea as it folded to the floor.
"It doesn't..." Agen Kolar swayed. His emerald blade shrank away, and the handgrip tumbled from his opening fingers. A small, neat hole in the middle of his forehead leaked smoke, showing light from the back of his head."... hurt..."
He pitched forward onto his face, and lay still.
Mathew Stover: Star Wars Episode 3: Revenge of the Sith, Chapter 17.
He actively encourages Tiin to read his mind and then capitalizes on the distraction of the Jedi Master(s). And while this might seem very fast (and probably was), you may want to take a close look at the fact that Fisto can say "Saesee" and the body has time to collapse to the floor, before Kolar gets hit as the second victim of Sidious surprise attack with a previously concealed weapon.
Couldn't that be because he was too fast for the Masters?
Again, the question that I'm asking myself is: How? We have Sidious igniting his weapon in a rather theatrical fashion and after this, he utters his "Is treason then" line and jumps for attack. Despite of that none of the three masters moves. There was time to move, given that the camera cuts to Mace Windu who is seen taking a step back. Tiin and Kolar just get cut down as if frozen in position. They should have reacted and the speed of Sidious' attack is pretty much a non-issue for this: Those are Jedi capable of precognition, especially when ready for combat. If they can react properly to blastershots being fired at them, they should be able to react when a Sith Lords comes flying at them, too.
So why doesn't that happen? If you ask me: I'm thinking that Sidious is actively diminishing their ability to fight through the force, maybe in a somewhat similar way to what King Ommin is using against the Jedi that try to conquer Onderon. That means: Surpressing their precognition and weakining their defenses. In fact, Sidious apparently employs the thing again in his second duel with Luke Skywalker during the Dark Empire series. When Leia does involve herself with battlemeditation, we see the background in the panels lighten up – and as a consequence, Sidious is beaten by Luke. Windu, with his Vaapad, isn't touched by Dark Side energies, that just flow into him and back out again ("superconducting loop"😉 and hence isn't influence by Sidious, hence he is capable of reacting.
If that is indeed the case, Sidious would probably be less efficient in combatant when facing people that are either "immune" to his powers (Windu with Vaapad) or powerful enough to counter them (Yoda). And it would also explain how he can handle opponents far more focused on lightsaber fencing than himself (e.g. Maul).
First off, i want to state that i have yet to reach a conclusion of what I think happened or didn't happen in that fight. So i can't agree or disagree.That said, you're forgetting that Mace Windu's mastery of Vaapad would grant Mace a significant edge.
How do you think Vaapad gives Mace a "significant edge"?
Except that, Kun isn't that powerful when compared to Sidious nor is he on the same level as Yoda. I have not seen something that shows me that Exar is on par with Yoda.
Maybe you can find something in the postings above...
But, isn't that debatable? after all Sidious has many quotes calling him a masterful user of the blade, I've seen a user provide the quote, but i don't seem to remember which thread they posted the quote in.
In his combination of force abilites and lightsaber skill, he is a master of the weapon. Yes. Can he stop people with nothing but his saber ability like, for example, Ulic could?
Perhaps, Sidious' main focus is not in direct combat, but he's not one to shy away from it either, as i stated before, Sidious and Yoda are among the top duelists of their respective eras.
I clearly saw him attempting to run before his duel with Yoda.
The argument can be made for Kun that he, too, is the top "dog" of his era. But, i counter with this."What other notable duelists lived at that time?"
Well. What noteable duelist have lived in the PT era?
This might seem like a stupid question to ask, but how exactly to you determine the skill of characters as Mace or Dooku in terms of duels? First off: Most characters in the story don't see much actual "duelling" action, and prior to the Clone Wars, they didn't encounter any lightsaber wielding opponents (with Maul as the only exception).
So most of their "fame" comes either from judgement of other characters or other battles they were in. But why would Jedi / Sith in earlier eras be less skilled (averagely) with a blade than the people of the PT era? So if you are an outstanding lightsaber combatant in Kun's time, you're probably very much on one level with the "top dogs" of other eras.
But if you want names: Ulic would be the first pick here. A guy capable of holding his own against an enraged Jedi in a lightsaber duel, without having access to the force? A guy who managed to outright slaughter an Ancient Sith in combat (Warb Null)? A guy who likewise managed to outduel Mandalore while the latter was making use of a Basilisk war droid?
Nomi Sunrider maybe, who was capable of handling a lightsaber "like a master" the first instance she picked the weapon up, which suggests an enormous talent with the weapon.
Vodo maybe, who apparently had enough practice in direct combat to make his stuff "more powerful than a lightsaber" and – indeed – floored Kun in a direct confrontation with that weapon.
That's a good point, however i feel that you seem to forget that Sidious trained Maul in the saber-staff style and in several forms of combat, to the point where Maul became the most highly trained & skilled sith in history, meaning that Sidious' focus on combat isn't as ..."lax"? as you presume.
Did Sidious really teach him all this or did he merely encourage his apprentice to do all of that himself? You see: There are quite many examples, where the apprentice / Padawan doesn't follow the style of his respective master. Qui-Gon utilized Form IV, despite his master Dooku being a Form II practicioner. Anakin, with his Djem-So utilized a form fundamentally opposing the philosophy of the lightsaber style his master Obi-Wan was using (Soresu). And I don't really see Sidious instructing Maul in every single move of the saber-staff style, especially given how reluctant Sidious is when it came to lightsaber training (as seen above).
Kun's live-time is completely happening during the reign of Vitiate over the (then hidden) Sith Empire. So the time in which Kun was "once the most powerful and dangerous of the Sith Lords" would be part of that time frame, too. Which, logically, means, that Kun, in that particular time, was more powerful and dangerous than Vitiate.
Well. What noteable duelist have lived in the PT era?
