Originally posted by The_TempestThis is quite the humiliation Nai is undertaking. I can see why he backs down to posters because this sort of thing occurs which does a number on his self esteem, apparently.
[b]@SunRazer{The three sources in question, off the top of my head}
Vader: The Ultimate Guide:
Can't get this one to format properly.
Star Wars Insider #86:
"Who's Who: Imperial Grand Admirals":
Originally posted by Nai
Cute. You still believe that Maul was a "Sith Lord"? I find that kind of funny."I appreciate, that you have trained him to be a fighting machine rather than a true apprentice" – Darth Plagueis on Maul, "Darth Plagueis", Chapter 23.
"Ultimately, Maul was nothing more than a tool" – Darth Sidious, The Essential Guide through the Force, p.169.
Maul was a Sith only in the title given to him by Sidious. He has pretty much zero feats when it comes to force powers, so one shouldn't be suprised, that he hasn't much to put up against Sidious attacking him with the force. Or do you think, that Maul could win a "wizard duel" against Aleema Keto. If yes, I'd love to see your reasons for that.
That may have seemed to have been the case in "Legends", but in TCW Canon they suggest he was trained as a true Sith Lord- According to comments by Filoni and Witwer at least.
Now he may have still been Sidious's "Tool" (as were Dooku and Vader), and Sidious would clearly betray and replace him without a second thought (again same as with Dooku and Vader). But that doesn't mean he wasn't making the most of Maul's training while he was his apprentice.
Also the new Ultimate Guide not only refers to Maul as a Sith Lord, but one of the deadliest and well trained Sith Lords ever. But even in Legends I wouldn't rely on what Plagueis think Sidious's true intentions are for Maul.
Don't have the time to be posting any large post right now due to unforeseeable time issues, but the point regarding Leland Chee's post - if you actually went on the site and looked at it in context, it's just Chee questioning the poster on whether the quote(s) in question referred to power or governmental power etc. As far as I see it, some of those quotes are very clearly referring to Force power, but as he says, there's room for discussion and at this rate we can't do anything other than agree to disagree.
@Selenial
Originally posted by Selenial
Lol at using a speed feat even Meetra Surik has beaten, to suggest Kun has speed on the level of Sheev mmm
I already said, that I don't consider "force speed" feats to be impressive, due to the fact that pretty much every character in the mythos has some going for him. It's a very basic ability and the respective instances of use are hardly compareable.
Is Luke in Shadows of the Empire (between ESB and ROTJ) "faster" than anybody else already, because he sees the motions of a superhumanly fast Assassination droid in "slow motion" while using force speed in an involuntary instance (it just happened to him)? Is Mace the fastest, because his movements are "invisible" in contrast to the "lightning fast" movment speed of Kar Vastor? Is Bane the fastest, who can move so fast that time appears to have stopped for him?
I find it hilarious to compare those speed feats, since - obviously - the characters are all capable of applying them on a certain level and it is rarely a deciding factor in fights. What I find rather laughable is the suggestion, that Sidious must be faster than everyone else, based on - pretty much - nothing.
@TheMerchant
Originally posted by The Merchant
Nai, if you had to compare Palpatine to any of the older Dark-siders from Kun's time, who would you think would be his equal?
Nobody.
You see: This kind of comparison is the exact logical fault, that appears to plague most people here. You have your personal concept of a characters relative standing in a "hierarchy" of characters, and then cast judgements according to that positioning. So if you place Sidious on top - as some people here do - the "logical" assumption is, that he must be capable of beating everybody "below" him.
And that is nonsense.
As I see it, the post-Bane Sith are fundamentally different from their earlier counterparts. The early Sith (e.g. Ragnos, Simus, Sadow, Kressh) existed in a competitive enviroment, in which the biggest concern was to stay ahead of everybody else in terms of personal combat ability, since it was the "strongest" Sith Lord, that was set to rule the Empire. So the ruler was pretty much the top dog of a rather huge pool of Sith Lords that did - more or less - compete for the one position that matters.
For the Rule-of-Two-Sith Lords from Bane on, this isn't something to consider. They don't need to focus on combat that much, because the only opposition they eventually need to face was their own master or apprentice. And even then, this wasn't always a matter of mano-a-mano confrontation, as Sidious himself shows quietly clearly, when getting rid of Plagueis.
This is why I can't make an accurate call for characters from the different eras. For me, there is a pool of individuals, who probably have a very similar level of "power" between whom fights could go either way. For Sidious this could be Ragnos, Simus, Sadow, Kressh, Kun, Nadd, Hord and Vitiate, even though there is a huge gap of power suggested between those individuals themselves.
Why? Because those people have made a point of their individual power. Some of them ran around and conquered entire planets on their own (Nadd, Hord), which is in itself a considerable combat feat, considering the space-age nature of most SW civilizations. Others have pulled mind-blowing stuff out of their Sith laboratories. Just consider the Gauntlet of Kressh the Younger, that, effectively, turns its wearer into an invinceble combatant (constructed by Ludo Kressh). And then imagine how powerful one must be to come up with stuff like that. Yet even Kressh had his equals (Sadow) and - probably - even superiors (Ragnos). There probably is a reason why Kreia thought of herself (and the Exile) as "children handling toys" in comparison to those Ancient Sith when it comes down to combat.
That doesn't preclude the idea, that Sidious might be the most knowledgeable or powerful Sith or that he might come up with equal (or superior) stuff. The point is, that he apparently never saw a reason to focus on the particular branch of force powers, combat abilities, Sith Alchemy, whatever which may be a serious disadvantage in combat, compared to the people who did.
@Darth Thor
Originally posted by Darth Thor
That may have seemed to have been the case in "Legends", but in TCW Canon they suggest he was trained as a true Sith Lord- According to comments by Filoni and Witwer at least.Now he may have still been Sidious's "Tool" (as were Dooku and Vader), and Sidious would clearly betray and replace him without a second thought (again same as with Dooku and Vader). But that doesn't mean he wasn't making the most of Maul's training while he was his apprentice.
Also the new Ultimate Guide not only refers to Maul as a Sith Lord, but one of the deadliest and well trained Sith Lords ever. But even in Legends I wouldn't rely on what Plagueis think Sidious's true intentions are for Maul.
Well. Sidious himself makes some rather huge statement on how to select and train apprentices so they won't eventually surpass him. And I've seen nothing to suggest, that Maul has received anything else than combat training. They don't show him wielding Force Lightning or doing anything impressive with the Force. In most of the available source material, even Jedi Padawan's pose a threat to him, when it comes down to the application of the Force. That's a rather different caliber from somebody like Dooku, who utterly dominates opponents with the Force.
@SunRazer
Originally posted by SunRazer
Don't have the time to be posting any large post right now due to unforeseeable time issues, but the point regarding Leland Chee's post - if you actually went on the site and looked at it in context, it's just Chee questioning the poster on whether the quote(s) in question referred to power or governmental power etc. As far as I see it, some of those quotes are very clearly referring to Force power, but as he says, there's room for discussion and at this rate we can't do anything other than agree to disagree.
I went on the site and looked at the context. Chee was asked, if this quote from the New Essential Chronology confirmed Sidious' status as most powerful force user among the Sith Lords. Chee handed out the answer I've quoted. And none of the quotes posted here do "clearly" refer to Force powers. Though even if they did, that wouldn't put Sidious on a pedestal of invicibility, which was - kind of - my point here.
If you Ctrl+F "New Essential Chronology" here: http://web.archive.org/web/20070301145241/http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=152583&start=1200
There's no results?
And besides, the post Chee responded to was this:
"say if we were having a debate on who was the most powerful sith ever, and a random sourcebook states that Sidious is, would that make it absolute, and render the discussion over, or would is still only be a matter of opinion and still up for debate?"
Which mentions no sourcebook in particular, and has no context (hence why Chee inquired further into it). If we're given sufficient context, we can safely deduct what sort of power the quote is referring to.
I already said, that I don't consider "force speed" feats to be impressive, due to the fact that pretty much every character in the mythos has some going for him. It's a very basic ability and the respective instances of use are hardly compareable.
The same can be said for telekinesis, but some are clearly a lot better at it than others. What you're saying is the equivalent of saying Darth Vader and Qui-Gon Jinn are peers with telekinesis because both have the capacity to perform it.
Is Luke in Shadows of the Empire (between ESB and ROTJ) "faster" than anybody else already, because he sees the motions of a superhumanly fast Assassination droid in "slow motion" while using force speed in an involuntary instance (it just happened to him)? Is Mace the fastest, because his movements are "invisible" in contrast to the "lightning fast" movment speed of Kar Vastor? Is Bane the fastest, who can move so fast that time appears to have stopped for him?
These are all fine speed feats.
I find it hilarious to compare those speed feats, since - obviously - the characters are all capable of applying them on a certain level and it is rarely a deciding factor in fights.
"Sidious's sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.
Maul's saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor."
^It certainly was a deciding factor there.
~insert competitive environment argument~
The relevance of the amount of Sith competing for a spot is nonexistant if the strongest competitor is still there. It wouldn't really matter to Sadow if every Sith in the Empire was vying to become DLOTS after Marka died, or if it was only Ludo--because either way Ludo is the top competition. The only thing that changes the game in that respect is if multiple Sith team up to take down a single stronger Sith, which weakens the Empire rather than strengthening it.
Nai, please format your images. 🙄
Really? You honestly dare to point to a dark side nexus in a debate where you argue for Sidious, pal? Seriously?
You do realize, that Sidious did profit from an unprecedented shift in the balance to the force towards the Dark Side, which started before Sidious became a Sith and was finished by him and Plagueis. An event, that did not only hinder all Jedi's ability to touch the Force but did also boost the abilities of Sidious. Shall we now declare Sidious "featless", because every single action performed by him happened under the influence of that unbalancing (e.g. in a state in which he was boosted)? And what does it say about Sidious' abilities, that even in this boosted state, he just barely managed to survive his fight Mace and Yoda who were both hindered at the same time?And yet the fact that it was neutralised by his death (and unaffected by Plagueis'😉 demonstrates it was dependent on his sole existence. The difference between Exar Kun and Sidious is that Exar Kun profited off a nexus to increase his power, whereas Sidious was so powerful to be responsible for one. 👆
And while I'm already at it: It was Kun who transformed into a Dark Side nexus by building the network of temples there (which were not present before, save for the main temple). The amulet itself is a source of power, yes, but it is not tied to the place. Else, Kun would have realized an amplification of his powers when entering it and not just after he put the amulet on.False on all accounts.
First off, the network of temples were built by Naga Sadow and the planet's transformation into a dark side nexus is dated back to his era not Kun's:
Source: SWTOR Codex - Yavin 4This statement is made in the contexts of around 3,600 BBY, 400 years after the rise of Exar Kun, not well over a thousand. Further proof:For well over a thousand years now, the dark side of the Force has flowed through Yavin 4 in an ever-increasing magnitude.
Source: The Dark Legacy of Yavin 4: Part IInstead its made clear that Kun merely improved on a network of pre-existing constructs:The first corruption of Yavin's fourth moon by the dark that we know of corresponds with the arrival of the Dark Lord Naga Sadow some fourteen hundred years ago.
...
The Massassi built massive temples [plural] for Sadow where they sacrificed their own in his honor.
Source: The Dark Legacy of Yavin 4: Part IReally though it's self evident that these properties already existed considering the temple Exar Kun finds himself in its filled with glowing pillars of light, a temple constructed by a species noted to channel the dark side through their architectural constructs - but those are just for decoration right?I think Kun saw what Naga Sadow had accomplished here with Sith alchemy and architecture and decided he could do better. He forced the Massassi to build new temples, but this time with a focus on complementing and augmenting the dark side.
Emphasis mine. How convenient, that you somehow "overlooked" what the true source of the amulets power was, while quoting from the very same page of the comic. Are you a bit one sided when reading the source-material, friend?Overlooked? Care to explain how this changes anything? What you've quoted proves that the amulet focuses Exar Kun's rage, but how does that change the fact that it's ability to do so was amplified by the temple and the planet? It just so happens that Sith amulets are powered by the dark side. 😉
On top of that the rage inside of him would be all the more potent considering how subsumed in the dark side that location would have been.
And I thought we weren't friends.
And, gosh, Kun has his amulet for this fight. So where was the point again?Point is Kun isn't sitting on a massively powerful nexus.
Oh, yeah. Kun not "replicating his feats" away from Yavin 4. Was there any reason for him to do something even remotely close to that, given that he either ragdolled,tKO'd or killed every opponent who dared to oppose him?And that's supposed proof that he could? 😂
And the only feat of Kun really tied to the focus point / nexus on Yavin 4 is force draining the entirety of the Massassi on the planet to fuel his final ritual. Give me a call when RotS Sidious does something similar without any aid.Explain to me why I should care about his nexus feats first.
The giant Sith crystal he is utilizing in "Sithisis" would, by the way, count as "aid". And, of course, the galaxy level dark side boost from the unbalancing of the Force.Except the crystal was destroyed by the worm. 😬
Cute. You still believe that Maul was a "Sith Lord"? I find that kind of funny.May I ask why are you using TPM accolades? TCW Maul is a whole different beast:"I appreciate, that you have trained him to be a fighting machine rather than a true apprentice." - Darth Plagueis on Maul, "Darth Plagueis", Chapter 23.
"Ultimately, Maul was nothing more than a tool" - Darth Sidious, The Essential Guide through the Force, p. 169
Maul was a Sith only in the title given to him by Sidious.
Source: Darth Maul: Shadow ConspiracyMaul had grown more powerful since the last time he'd been in Sidious's presence, before the Neimoidian invasion of Naboo had turned disastrous and Obi-Wan had bested him inside the Theed power core. His hermitage on Lotho Minor, his lessons on Unbara, his restoration by Mother Talzin, and his training of Savage had all strengthened him, made him a more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power.
Source: Clone Wars - Ep. 501Savage Opress : You've grown so powerful...
Source: The Clone Wars - The Sith HuntersThere is a reason why Sidious went from viewing Maul as a disposable tool to a "rival."Salmara : Darth Maul is being consumed by hatred. I imagine this hatred-- This rage-- Fueled him and kept him alive... coming back from near death may have made the Sith Lord stronger... And even more dangerous.
...
Obi-Wan Kenobi : I believe Maul's rage was so powerful, and his knowledge of the dark side so great, he simply refuse to die...
He has pretty much zero feats when it comes to force powers, so one shouldn't be suprised, that he hasn't much to put up against Sidious attacking him with the force. Or do you think, that Maul could win a "wizard duel" against Aleema Keto. If yes, I'd love to see your reasons for that.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhnY8pU3rFc&t=0m57s
Zero feats? What rock have you been living under? 😆 You'll find that in your absence, Maul has added a lot of impressive feats to his name:
For example outright Force choking Kenobi, which before only Dooku has replicated:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111137054/4253755-forcechokeobi-wan.jpg
Not only snapping the neck by turning the head of Faleen 360 degrees:
http://www.comicvine.com/profile/erkan12/blog/darth-maul-respect-thread/101256/
With a single Force push he could take out 10 soldiers:
Collapses a cave with the Force:
Blows Kenobi across a considerable distance:
Manipulates a large shuttle with the Force while under heavy blaster fire:
Blows away an entire army of battle droids with a Force wave a la Windu in OCW:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111137054/4254099-maul+force+wave1.jpg
These are high level telekinetic feats, and on top of that he managed to survive being chopped in half through sheer power in the dark side. He is more than Keto's match.
I was new to the concept of Force abilities waning with age. Thus far, they have - pretty much - increased in all examples that I have on top of my head.If that where the case all Force users would be immortal, but instead they wither and die, seeing how closely connected the Force is to life its only logical that their connection would eventually follow suit.
But, of course, that must be somehow different here and Odan-Urr somehow "lost" his power. Still: Killing a Jedi Master with a single force attack is beyond anything RotS Sidious has done with the force. So?Uh-huh. Considering Sidious has Force choked Dooku with minimal effort and over holo, who in turn has himself Force choked the likes of Ventress, Vos and Kenobi, colour me unconvinced that Force killing a (old and feeble) "Jedi Master" is proof he's in Palpatine's league.
How convenient, that you forgot to mention that Sidious summoned the same thing out of a giant Sith crystal moments before.Care to attach a point to that? Is it that he made it out of paper-mache?
And there is still this thing about the unbalancing of the force, which boosted his abilities in every second of his Sith career.In your opinion, and for which they'd have Sidious to thank.
One could also mention, that the beast Kun was facing was a little bit bigger than that cute worm Sidious roastedTo bad he did it on a nexus.
Since Kun's spirit is described as "powerless" and was half-mad, it is only logical to assume that Kun in his regular shape would be capable of at least the same - and probably far more - than his spirit. Do you have any reason to suggest otherwise?Plenty, namely that Exar Kun didn't possess a physical body, and was therefore no longer restrained by the limitations of the mortal coil - both in terms of the amount of energy he could channel, and the extent to which he could. On top of that Exar Kun was stated to have grown "very powerful on Kyp's hate" whom he combined his powers with.
You should read my blog on the subject:
Hopefully you find it enlightening. 😉
I'm wondering where you get your information from. Since the ability attacks the connection to the Force of the target rather than the taget itself, I wonder what this has to do with the potential of its user. Furthermore: Odan Urr has utilized the technique successful against the Sith Lords surviving the Great Hyperspace War 1,000 years earlier.Logic would be my primary source.
If this ability has nothing to do with the powers of those involved, then it would always be successful, and yet it failed against Exar Kun. Suggesting either Odan-Urr was too weak, or Exar Kun was too strong, or both. Likewise it took several of the Jedi Order's most powerful masters just to trap Ulic in a wall of light and yet when he is self professed to be weak and defenseless, Nomi severs him completely and unaided.
Connections to the Force vary in strength and size like anything else.
Oh, great. An argumentum ad absurdiam. Brilliant. I have merely remarked upon the fact, that Sidious didn't have his force defense tested much. Oh wait...Correct, because your argument is absurd. 👆
However I missed the part where Kun actually defends against Keto's blast...
Ah, yes. Of course the uncontrolled outburst of Vader at the end of RotS is compareable to a blast of dark side energy directed at a single target - or a wall of light attack. 🙄You need to read the quote again:
Source: Revenge of the SithVader's rage is directed at Sidious, but he cannot touch him. He's not just thrashing about haphazardly.And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory, and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and equipment, and the table on which you were strapped shatters, and in the end, you cannot touch the shadow.
And Sidious super Force Barriers couldn't even handle a force push from Yoda, whom Sidious had knocked to the floor moments earlier.*sigh* Your erronoueslty assuming like many others that a Force push is just a pure Force-based attack like Force lightning or Force grip, a Force push is the manipulation and compression of air particles into a pressurised missile which is then launched at the target.
And just as one can't expect Force barriers to protect oneself from solid matter, gaseous matter is no different, the only way you could defend yourself against from what is essentially a powerful and concentrated air current is by rooting yourself to the ground or throwing up a tangible shield.
Simply put Sidious was just caught of guard, neither rooting himself to the ground or throwing up a shield. They didn't decide to make his Force barriers arbitrarily inconsistent with his Force abilities. Nor did they decide to do the same when Kanan and Ezra - (whom Vader had just thoroughly trashed) Force pushed him to the floor:
How is he going to defend himself against Sith magic and dark side techniques that brought post-DE Luke Skywalker down?Seeing as Kyp and the spirit of Exar Kun aren't present, I'm sure he'll do fine. 👆
May I remind you that, the one time Sidious was attacked with telekinesis, he ended up upside down behind his desk?And naturally you have proof Exar Kun is even comparable to Yoda in telekinesis.
I could also point to the fact that he didn't ever encounter Sith magics in combat, and ask for prove that he is capable of defending himself against Kun's offensive abilities. Oh. Stop. He actually was attacked with a Sith ability in combat. His own force lightning. The effect was that he was melting of his own face with it. I suppose, we saw his powerful force barriers in action there. thumb upExcept Sithisis, which you appear to be familiar with, demonstrates that Windu didn't disfigure Sidious' face but merely dispelled the Sith mask we see him forge in said comic.
Not that "he hasn't therefore he can't" is at all a valid form of argument.
No. We're discussing combat here, and since Kun does use his dark side abilities in combat, and Sidious has never faced an opponent who did the same, that is something that Kun has in comparison to Yoda and Mace. And, of course, Kun, as a Dark Side user, wouldn't suffer from the effects of that nice imbalance in the Force that actively hindered the Jedi's abilities to use the Force properly.And I asked for proof of Kun's comparable dueling ability - you brought up Force feats irrelevant to that subject.
How is it "irrelevant" that Kun is the best lightsaber fighter Vodo has trained in six centuries? To every reasonable reader, this translates into vast talent when it comes down to lightsaber action.Because Mace and Yoda's accolades actually put them above Exar Kun. Being among the greatest lightsaber duelists in mythos puts you in Exar Kun's league, Mace and Yoda are above such individuals and better yet Yoda is regarded as the greatest duelists ever. Being the best of Vodo's students doesn't mark him as superior to Mace or Yoda at all.If the accolade about Kun is irrelevant, so is everything said about Yoda and Mace. The accolade about Kun should be enough - if somebody was inclined on applying reasonable thinking to the situation - to put Kun on par with the likes of Dooku and Mace when it comes to nothing but swordsplay. At his command of the Dark Side to the equation and you have an opponent that is more than a match for RotS Sidious.
Sure, Exar Kun's lightsaber skills are exceptional and a match for ROTS Sidious, but to suggest they give him an edge over him is simply untrue.
Proof that Sidious is faster than Kun. I can just point to the fact again, that Force speed is an universal force power available to pretty much every force user in the mythos.Are you attempting to say that all Force users are equal to each other in speed? That's obviously not true. There are individuals who are "pretty fast" and then there are those likely Sidious, who are evidently much faster.While I, personally, don't consider instances of force speed that impressive, we can see here, that Kun is quite capable of speed blitzing the duo, before one of them has the chance to pull the trigger. And since he had to get his lightsaber into his hand in order to do so first, he is apparently pretty fast.
Oh, yes. Just ignore the potential advantage for Kun outright, and then proclaim, that Sidious will have no problem fall back on his force powers while Kun keeps slicing him into pieces. Very reasonable.I am not the one who raised the point that Kun would "care less about getting hit" - don't be mad.
And what proof do you have that Kun can move fast enough to do that? Especially considering Sidious' precognitive powers would likely alert him to such a happening before it even happened?
Boring.Which are all Maul level feats, unaugmented, plunging your fist into a wampa's torso before ripping out its heart, shattering spines with a casual elbowing and tearing off Varactyl skulls are pretty comparable. And that is again his lowest end. If Sidious can overpower an augmented and enraged Maul with ease he'd blow all these feats out of the park.
Kun is seen physcially overpowering Sylvar, who was capable of tearing limbs and heads of war droids off with her bare hands. He also plunged his fingers through the skull of the Republic's chancellor and then lifted his weight (still suspended on his fingers) to utilize him as a handpuppet. He's also capable of contending with Ulic, who in turn was capable of overpowering his brother Cay, who had a mechanical arm that he used to punch straight through war droid heads.
Though it is amusing that an effort must be made on your part to bring Exar Kun up to an untrained Palpatine's level. 😛
Still debateable if this was just a speed feat or Sidious did influence them in another fashion as well. This while Sidious was boosted and they were hindered due to the unbalancing of the Force...The only inkling of influence we get is when Sidious mind tricks Saesee Tinn in the novel, however this is absent from the Canon movie - demonstrating it was unnecessary. Anything beyond that is baseless speculation.
And since we've already covered how said "nexus" was a product of Sidious' very existence, I'd ask for proof that it effected the Jedi's abilities as a whole. I've only seen instances in which it affected their ability to see the future.
I'd add to that that regardless, Sidious has moved to fast for Maul to see:
Source: Darth Maul - Shadow ConspiracyA dark sider, comparable in skill and superior in power to anyone of the B-Team, so it hardly matters.Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master's blows. Sidious's sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.
Maul's saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor.
But yeah this is totally better than Exar Kun stalemating against Ulic's speed and failing to blitz Vodo. 👆
Almost generic speed feat for almost every force user in the mythos. And, in case you didn't notice: When one character uses force speed, he will always be "invisible" for other characters not using the same technique at the same time. Where was the point again?Erm both of those examples were taken from lightsaber engagements, where both opponents were using Force speed to augment their speed. You'll find that Maul speed is more than on level with the likes of Ulic, who again Kun stalemated against.
Either you're incapable of reading or so desperate to make a point that you have to resort to lying. Yes. Sidious was training with a total of 200 battle droids, but they came at him and Plagueis "ring after ring", with the exact number per ring not specified. Not that impressive.My bad, that's what I meant when I said waves.
This is even more fun. Aside from not mentioning Plagueis' involvement in that little confrontation, you also - conveniently - forgot to mention, that the Kursid warriors were primitives, attacking the Sith with spears and axes. And "force pikes" are pretty much lightsabers that work with electroshocks rather than deadly laserbeams, although they can cut through pretty much anything, when set to the highest power. It's still a "hit one and he's out of the fight" weapon. And in this case, it was used against primitives, who didn't have a connection to the force.Ever heard of the term generalisation? I assumed you to be learned enough (although I'm beginning to doubt that) to fill in the unimportant gaps. Unimportant because:
[*]Plagueis' presence does not at all alter the fact he waded through an omni-directional throng of armed hundreds of skilled individuals without being touched.
[*]A Force pike differs from a lightsaber in terms of the surface area of it's killing points, nor were they at the highest setting.[/list]Altogether I fail to see how your attempt to lowball this feat makes Exar Kun capable of it. In fact, you've failed to provide any proof Kun is comparable to Sidious in terms of Force augmentation at all.
I've pretty much quoted the support already. Did you, by chance, not read it? Here again:You mean your 5-parter? I scrolled. 👆"I can help. Yes, that material is C-level canon. (And yes, the Insider is a "legitimate publication."😉 Leland vets the stuff I write for Insider that's fiction or includes new continuity. He's a busy man; I doubt he'd do that for kicks on his break." - Jason Fry.
Emphasis mine. The wording is pretty much specific. Everything in the insider, that is either fiction or includes new continuity, is C-level canon. Anything not (like the article in question) doesn't have any impact on the actual canon but is merely the opinion of an author. That's it.
But care to explain how this statement made in regards to the Star Wars universe (read continuity) is not "new continuity"? Other than the fact it's old news...
I wonder if you will ever see, that the entirety of canon literature is built in a way that doesn't allow a definite say on who is the most powerful. That is LFL house policy according to Leland Chee for you.
The New Essential Chronology is written from the perspective of historian Voran Na'al, making the statement the opinion of a character within the universe itself.That's not a basis for doubting it, that's a basis for invalidating it if a contradiction exists, otherwise it's canon, because that is the status of the text.
And on the topic of contradictions, one thing I forgot to address.
*sigh*However you interpret the word, it doesn't make a difference. It doesn't change the fact that Exar Kun once was but no longer is, for whatever reason. Even if it doesn't indicate he has been replaced, as past tense it makes the statement non applicable to Sidious or anyone who came after Kun.
Did it ever occur to you, that the "once" is merely in that sentence, because Exar Kun is dead? He is nothing any longer, so he once was something. This translates into a "retcon" in favour of Sidious how exactly? Right. It doesn't.
To have a retcon, you would need a quote that states Sidious is "the most powerful and dangerous of the Sith Lords". Haven't found it yet, despite of your effort?
However your fooling yourself if you think this change was arbitary, and doesn't reflect the fact that applying it in present tense would be erroneous.
I'm really sorry, "friend", but that means that your interpretation is...well...your interpretation and nothing more.And yet yours is somehow more valid.
There's always going to be room for interpretation and debate. Is the power being measured referring to his mastery over the dark side of the Force, the governmental powers he wields as Emperor, or some combination of both? - Leland Chee"So you accept that Exar Kun's accolades are intepretable and therefore irrelevant to this debate?
Though I would certainly agree with SunRazer on this front.
Originally posted by SiniousMore experienced, skilled, and better feats? Like what?
How about this one: Sidious wins cause he is faster, smarter, more experienced, more skilled, more powerful and has better feats and accolades ??
You guys killed me on this forum. Lets bring up Sidious records against the big dogs of his time:
1. Kills his master in his sleep. Great combat feat.
2. Loses to Mace one on one.
3. Stalemate between him and Yoda. (That because Yoda ran out of time before the clone boys would get there to assist Sidious)
Everyone else Sidious defeated Kun wouldn't?
Sorry this is a very close battle that could definitely go either way.
