Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
I feel like there is a war against caucasian/christian's in America more then there is on black people.
I feel a lot of white/christian people have a persecution complex, when the numbers indicate that it's anything but.
I mean, the leadership of the country is very disproportionately white. Police forces are often disproportionately white too. Christianity is by far the most popular and powerful religion in the US, with a lot of laws getting passed in support of it despite the fact we aren't supposed to do that (and it's common enough that a number of Christians don't realize 'removing blatant favoritism' isn't the same thing as oppressions). That statistics indicate it's other groups, not whites, who get discriminated against. Etc..
jaden101
Would be interesting to see how it translates into actual discrimination in every day life.If what I gather from different opinions is true, black people suffer more active discrimination than whites but have a more sympathetic media portrayal
Whites have less actual discrimination yet a less sympathetic media
And really, that's as it's should be- people doing better don't need as much sympathy as people who have to put up more.
Being more sympathetic to people who need more sympathy is pretty basic, I feel.
Punching down, being unsympathetic to those in a worse spot to begin with... is just mean.
And some of the unsympathy comes from, well, people trying to deny that other groups have it worse/ fight against trying to help them or even recognize that there's a gap. Which should be called out- it is the job of the jester to point out when the Emperor has no cloth's.
Originally posted by dadudemonhonestly man it sounds like you're saying if anyone tries to 'help' the black community that makes them racist (unless they're black)
Let's avoid false-analogies and strawman metaphors and literally stick with what I stated. It avoids lengthy posts.Nope. I'm not that one guy. I'm that one guy literally stating that racist progressives are being racist when they think black people are too dumb, stupid, and incapable of helping themselves and [b]need
white power to get anywhere.I asked for an example from Bardock42 that avoids this conondrum and he hid behind words (he does that). He didn't actually offer anything.
Here's a hint: throwing money at black people is not a solution and that represents part of what I'm talking about. Sure, money helps, but it needs to be done in a way that is more than just trying to help subversively racist white people rid themselves of their white guilt.
But I'm open to actual solutions. Do you have any? Several black professors have solutions...I should research those... [/B]
cause whenever you try to help someone, you're assuming they can't do it without you?
thus they're inferior to you?
i guess then the obvious solution is we should just drop all the black people off on one island, so they can work it out in their natural habitat, without white interference.
Originally posted by red g jacks
honestly man it sounds like you're saying if anyone tries to 'help' the black community that makes them racist (unless they're black)
Only if you try, very very hard, to ignore everything else I posted on this particular topic, yeah, I could see someone making that faulty conclusion.
Originally posted by red g jacks
i guess then the obvious solution is we should just drop all the black people off on one island, so they can work it out in their natural habitat, without white interference.
Island?
Natural Habitat?
Wha?
Originally posted by Q99
I feel a lot of white/christian people have a persecution complex, when the numbers indicate that it's anything but.I mean, the leadership of the country is very disproportionately white. Police forces are often disproportionately white too. Christianity is by far the most popular and powerful religion in the US, with a lot of laws getting passed in support of it despite the fact we aren't supposed to do that (and it's common enough that a number of Christians don't realize 'removing blatant favoritism' isn't the same thing as oppressions). That statistics indicate it's other groups, not whites, who get discriminated against. Etc..
And really, that's as it's should be- people doing better don't need as much sympathy as people who have to put up more.
Being more sympathetic to people who need more sympathy is pretty basic, I feel.
Punching down, being unsympathetic to those in a worse spot to begin with... is just mean.
And some of the unsympathy comes from, well, people trying to deny that other groups have it worse/ fight against trying to help them or even recognize that there's a gap. Which should be called out- it is the job of the jester to point out when the Emperor has no cloth's.
Police forces are disproportionately white? How's that? Majority of Americans are white.
According to the wall street journal around 12% of police officers are black. If the population of black people is 13% of the entire populace, then they're certainly not disproportionately underrepresented.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Police forces are disproportionately white? How's that? Majority of Americans are white.
According to the wall street journal around 12% of police officers are black. If the population of black people is 13% of the entire populace, then they're certainly not disproportionately underrepresented.
That statistic doesn't seem to take into account where most police are assigned though. If a larger percentage of police is assigned to predominantly black neighbourhoods (or that of other minorities) the percentage could be disproportionally low.
The New York Times makes this point pretty well:
Originally posted by Bardock42
That statistic doesn't seem to take into account where most police are assigned though. If a larger percentage of police is assigned to predominantly black neighbourhoods (or that of other minorities) the percentage could be disproportionally low.The New York Times makes this point pretty well:
If they were all proportionately designated, that means there would be some parts of the country where black won't need to enter the police force because majority (if not all) of the residents are white, or they would have to MOVE to an area with predominately black population, even if that's across the country.
This is ridiculously ineffective. Over 80% of police officers will be white, because over 80% of residents of the United States are white.
What the statistics above suggest is that all the available black officers should be shuffled around to all the predominantly black areas to police it.
The statistics also don't show a huge disparity. Black officers who are avilable, in the area, who WANT to be in the police force are placed in the predominantly black area.
So what happens when there aren't enough black officers in the area?
By those statistics it's either, let it be not policed or move black officers from one city/state to another.
Here's an article as to why it's hard to recruit black police officers: http://www.wsj.com/articles/percentage-of-african-americans-in-u-s-police-departments-remains-flat-since-2007-1431628990
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
If they were all proportionately designated, that means there would be some parts of the country where black won't need to enter the police force because majority (if not all) of the residents are white, or they would have to MOVE to an area with predominately black population, even if that's across the country.This is ridiculously ineffective. Over 80% of police officers will be white, because over 80% of residents of the United States are white.
What the statistics above suggest is that all the available black officers should be shuffled around to all the predominantly black areas to police it.
The statistics also don't show a huge disparity. Black officers who are avilable, in the area, who WANT to be in the police force are placed in the predominantly black area.
So what happens when there aren't enough black officers in the area?
By those statistics it's either, let it be not policed or move black officers from one city/state to another.
Here's an article as to why it's hard to recruit black police officers: http://www.wsj.com/articles/percentage-of-african-americans-in-u-s-police-departments-remains-flat-since-2007-1431628990
You are correct with some of the reasons why the discrepancy exists, however it doesn't change the problem that there are some areas, in particular some areas troubled with high criminality, that are mainly policed by people outside of the affected communities, and that leads to further problems (perhaps even a vicious circle). The question of what to do to solve that is a different matter, and I don't have a great idea about that either.
Originally posted by Bardock42
You are correct with some of the reasons why the discrepancy exists, however it doesn't change the problem that there are some areas, in particular some areas troubled with high criminality, that are mainly policed by people outside of the affected communities, and that leads to further problems (perhaps even a vicious circle). The question of what to do to solve that is a different matter, and I don't have a great idea about that either.
LB posts specifics, you post broad strokes opinions with a underlying filibuster rhetoric of saying absolutely nothing. Your posts never change, they reverberate the same non sense over and over "criminality', 'communities' 'discrepancy's." These big words don't address specifics, and you cant give any cause you don't live here or have a clue about the problems.
None of what you say exists, and most of this is just happy go lucky key strokes lacking substance.
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
LB posts specifics, you post broad strokes opinions with a underlying filibuster rhetoric of saying absolutely nothing. Your posts never change, they reverberate the same non sense over and over "criminality', 'communities' 'discrepancy's." These big words don't address specifics, and you cant give any cause you don't live here or have a clue about the problems.None of what you say exists, and most of this is just happy go lucky key strokes lacking substance.
You are completely right, at least if you exclude the times when I post specifics and sources, like just earlier with the NYT article...
My biggest annoyance with this is still that, the same people who talk about how hard life is for blacks. Want to ignore how things are on the ground level in the communities and disregard what is said about it by the very people who live it because it doesn't pain as simple of a narrative as only crying victim.
You can say your numbers on police issues and stuff all day, but unless you actually understand the people your solutions don't mean anything. Because in the actual communities it's not anywhere near as simple as "more black cops' or "Access to better schools" or the other common things said.
But people don't care. On one said are full on racists looking for any excuse to call all black people scum and on the other are people more concerned with showing how not racist they are to actually bother seeing anything other than 'black people are more often victims of racism than I am" if the only contribution to discussions about black issues are "white people are bad' then what you have to say is just as pointless tbh as the other side.
Being Arrested is nearly twice as deadly for African Americans as Whites
Originally posted by Lek Kuen
My biggest annoyance with this is still that, the same people who talk about how hard life is for blacks. Want to ignore how things are on the ground level in the communities and disregard what is said about it by the very people who live it because it doesn't pain as simple of a narrative as only crying victim.You can say your numbers on police issues and stuff all day, but unless you actually understand the people your solutions don't mean anything. Because in the actual communities it's not anywhere near as simple as "more black cops' or "Access to better schools" or the other common things said.
But people don't care. On one said are full on racists looking for any excuse to call all black people scum and on the other are people more concerned with showing how not racist they are to actually bother seeing anything other than 'black people are more often victims of racism than I am" if the only contribution to discussions about black issues are "white people are bad' then what you have to say is just as pointless tbh as the other side.
On the flip side, a lot of people do care, and simply aren't sure the best way to fix it and/or are helping in ways that help incrementally but take time, funding those with first hand experience. Investing in neighborhoods, helping with job opportunity, and better training police all help. They just aren't magic bullets.
Just because someone is talking about it, doesn't mean they aren't only talking. And, frankly, even if someone is helping efforts to do so without actually personally understanding the community, they still help. Making people aware of problems is the first step to a solution in, like, any problem, and gathering resources to do something about it is usually the second, even someone without first-hand experience or a precise understanding can still help out in material, useful ways.
It's easy to characterize things as 'just talk,' but that does not mean things are not getting done. There's a lot of programs and efforts that are having an effect, it's just a big problem.
Originally posted by Lek Kuen
My biggest annoyance with this is still that, the same people who talk about how hard life is for blacks. Want to ignore how things are on the ground level in the communities and disregard what is said about it by the very people who live it because it doesn't pain as simple of a narrative as only crying victim.You can say your numbers on police issues and stuff all day, but unless you actually understand the people your solutions don't mean anything. Because in the actual communities it's not anywhere near as simple as "more black cops' or "Access to better schools" or the other common things said.
But people don't care. On one said are full on racists looking for any excuse to call all black people scum and on the other are people more concerned with showing how not racist they are to actually bother seeing anything other than 'black people are more often victims of racism than I am" if the only contribution to discussions about black issues are "white people are bad' then what you have to say is just as pointless tbh as the other side.
I'm not sure anyone is saying that white people are bad, but that the policies (and predominant stereotypes) that are implemented are harmful to black people, and that we should think about how to create a better framework to improve chances for equality. At the very least acknowledging that creates a counter balance to the racist narrative that would otherwise be the only one discussed. I don't think it's reasonable to expect that everyone that is against racism has holistic solutions to such a complicated problem.
As an aside, somewhat related to this point, I listened to a podcast (99% Invisible - It's very good) about the AIDS Awareness ribbon that became popular in the 90s, and how other AIDS Activist groups gave the creators some backlash:
http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/awareness/The ribbon's creators felt a backlash from other AIDS advocates. At first, wearing the ribbon had felt like a radical act. But as the ribbon became more ubiquitous, some activists called wearing it an easy out. Critics said it was a way to look like you cared about people with AIDS, without actually doing anything to help them. Basically, the same criticisms that met the Livestrong bracelet and the ice bucket challenge.
But Marc Happel says that's okay:
What we wanted to do was create something that a mother in Michigan could wear on the lapel of her blouse, and you know maybe her son was living in New York and living with AIDS, and she wanted to do something. I think it was just, it was also a symbol that we created that, that somebody could wear, and somebody might go up to them and say, "What is that? Why are you wearing that red ribbon" And hopefully that person would say, "Here's why".
And I think that's very true. The racism that still exists in society is often swept under the rug or considered over because the laws don't outright discriminate anymore. There's always more to do, ways to get more involved, but acknowledging it is the first step, maybe talking about it and trying to convince others the second.
Originally posted by Q99
Being Arrested is nearly twice as deadly for African Americans as WhitesOn the flip side, a lot of people do care, and simply aren't sure the best way to fix it and/or are helping in ways that help incrementally but take time, funding those with first hand experience. Investing in neighborhoods, helping with job opportunity, and better training police all help. They just aren't magic bullets.
Just because someone is talking about it, doesn't mean they aren't only talking. And, frankly, even if someone is helping efforts to do so without actually personally understanding the community, they still help. Making people aware of problems is the first step to a solution in, like, any problem, and gathering resources to do something about it is usually the second, even someone without first-hand experience or a precise understanding can still help out in material, useful ways.
It's easy to characterize things as 'just talk,' but that does not mean things are not getting done. There's a lot of programs and efforts that are having an effect, it's just a big problem.
Well 1, I see first hand a lot of stuff that really does amount to just talk to further their own standing. I've seen and experienced time and time again my whole life, so excuse me for not jumping for now at simply having people mention it.
But more importantly my point isn't that someone needs first hand experiance. Its that way to often are those with experiance having it ignored or ven worse actively shit on when it's anything by crying about the racism they have been a victim of.
I can list off incidents of racism done to me, I have talked about some semi recent one on the forum during the Brown incident. But my experiance with the reasons a lot if sincere efforts have less than desired effects is more relevant to a serious discussion. But very few care about people like me, and we are encounter to join the bandwagon and parrot the same stuff every time this stuff happens.
It's why I mostly stay out of these topics now. An actual talk about this is new wanted, neither in places like this or in the actual groups and meetings in real life. It is briefly brought up so they can say they do, and then go back to spewing the same shit to keep things as they are.
Obviously some do really try, but a lot don't. And to actually adress this complicated issue you need all the sides of it, not just the same victim problem we have known forever in our community.
The thing is, I'm sure it's true, as you say, that things have to change within black communities, but many white people use that as an excuse to not evaluate the advantages they have due to being white. Basically "black people are to blame for the problems they face" is the rallying cry of racists everywhere, and that needs to be counterbalanced, imo.
I live in a predominantly white society, I am white, I'm surrounded by mostly white people, what reasonable advice could I possibly give to a black kid living in a poor part of Chicago? None really, however I can talk to people of my own race, my own socioeconomic status about how our myopia affects other people, and how we take advantages for granted that other groups just plainly don't have.
There's a great thing said about George W. Bush "Born on third base, thought he had a triple", and that's exactly the problem in white communities, so many of us (and I include myself in there) live in a bubble and assume our experience is the same as everyone elses, and if we don't acknowledge we are bound to have a skewed, incorrect world view, which then in turn informs culture and policy, and that should be changed.
Originally posted by Bardock42
The thing is, I'm sure it's true, as you say, that things have to change within black communities, but many white people use that as an excuse to not evaluate the advantages they have due to being white. Basically "black people are to blame for the problems they face" is the rallying cry of racists everywhere, and that needs to be counterbalanced, imo.I live in a predominantly white society, I am white, I'm surrounded by mostly white people, what reasonable advice could I possibly give to a black kid living in a poor part of Chicago? None really, however I can talk to people of my own race, my own socioeconomic status about how our myopia affects other people, and how we take advantages for granted that other groups just plainly don't have.
There's a great thing said about George W. Bush "Born on third base, thought he had a triple", and that's exactly the problem in white communities, so many of us (and I include myself in there) live in a bubble and assume our experience is the same as everyone elses, and if we don't acknowledge we are bound to have a skewed, incorrect world view, which then in turn informs culture and policy, and that should be changed.
The point is rather racists use it or not we can't ignore that side of things. Out here half the conferences about issues quickly devolve into only that. We are encouraged to shut up and only look at that said. Have people actually try to discredit you for saying that some programs try but fail for reasons that need to be adressed.
You say a lot of white people don't see it? Well I say a lot of both don't or more likely refuse to see the internal issues as well. You have to tackle both, or you end up like my current town. Where programs and good systems fail because people refuse to try to understand and work with the problem beyond that one part. And you get hate for trying.