Originally posted by dadudemonYou're the one making stuff up.
That's quite clearly your problem. Just don't make up stuff and you'll be golden. Stick to people's words.Sure, just let me pull up this study where American Liberals who like coddle black people admit that they are secretly racist...
It's definitely a problem. For sure. But there you go again adding your own spin. "Major"? 😬
But, here, you want some stats that are immeasurable, so I'll give you stats that can be measured:
http://www.rt.com/usa/majority-americans-racist-poll-378/
55% of dems are racist. 64% of GOPs are racist.
Now tell me where the subversive racists fit in with those numbers? Can you figure it out?
Tell me where they are??? Because the article actually doesn't state how those implicit racists lean towards black rights.
This is pathetic. You're trying to make a point but doing a terrible job stating it.
You don't actually have any to support what you're saying. You're making up stuff for who knows what reason. You can't find anything to really back your claim.
All because you want to have this weird delusion that white people that want to help end racism in this country are racists themselves.
Of course it seems more like the thing you really want to say is that all black persons troubles are strictly/mostly brought upon themselves. You also believe that they don't deserve any help despite the overwhelming evidence supporting the opposite.
So you're making an unsupported claim that anyone who believes black people need help are racists trying to say the black person is inferior.
It's seriously demented logic to try and make an unsupportive claim work for you. I would applaud the audacity and some what intelligent way you've tried to present it if it wasn't so silly and horrifying at the same time.
All the evidence supports the average black person faces more obstacles than the average white person. That our society has cultural bias against black people that makes it harder for them to achieve the same level as their white counterparts. That isn't fantasy like your claim that is actual evidence.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Unfortunately not. The notion that people are secretly racist is a very well known polling phenomenon.Social Desirability Bias
And the notion that many Progressives are secretly racist is not a new idea, either.
Oh yeah, there's a lot of people that are racist and also a lot that are secretly racist. What isn't that common is people that are "benevolent racists" (or subversive racists) in the way that you describe towards black people in the US.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Oh yeah, there's a lot of people that are racist and also a lot that are secretly racist. What isn't that common is people that are "benevolent racists" (or subversive racists) in the way that you describe towards black people in the US.
Actually, yeah, there are. Tons. And white. And the secretly racist people I'm describing are the same as the subversive racists.
Originally posted by Newjak
You're the one making stuff up.Tell me where they are??? Because the article actually doesn't state how those implicit racists lean towards black rights.
This is pathetic. You're trying to make a point but doing a terrible job stating it.
Didn't I just address this? No study or poll exists that could provide you what you're looking for. I even asked you how you would go about finding these people. I did bring up the problem with why it would be nearly impossible to find these types of people in any type of poll: social desirability bias.
You've actually just dodged the point I brought up about your hilariously naive request: how would you actually poll these people with any sort of accuracy? 🙂
You do realize that the poll I posted is going to be very largely tainted by the social desirability bias problem, right? They pollsters cannot inflate the numbers to account for this problem...that'd be dishonest. It is very difficult to tell just how far and deep that racism really goes. This is not an appeal to ignorance, this is "oh, hey...this is a weakness in our polling."
The real question is, how many people do you think are closeted racists out there? You know, the types that may even "help" minorities but secretly look down on them?
Originally posted by Newjak
You don't actually have any to support what you're saying. You're making up stuff for who knows what reason. You can't find anything to really back your claim.
I'm making up closeted racist white people who, superficially, give lip-service to the black community but probably lock their car doors when a black man walks past, clutches their purse when a group of black people walk past, etc.? You live under a rock if you think this subversive racists don't exist. And you're over here screaming, "DURR EVIDENCE! WHERE DAE EVIDENCE!"
On one hand, some people might say the abortion programs are an amazing program to keep minority women from being burdened in a cycle of poverty. These programs, pushed by seemingly kind and benevolent white benefactors, have caused a decline in crime in the black community, right? On the other hand, some minorities feel that this is the worst kind of racism because it is a "slow genocide of minorities" and it represents this subversive racism that I've been talking about.
Oh, you don't believe me that this is how some of the black community feels, eh?
http://www.blackgenocide.org/black.html
But, let's not forget, in your mind, black people are not offended by subversive racism. Racism disguised as patronizing benevolence. Oh no...what I'm talking about doesn't exist. And there is not a single black man in this country that knows what I'm talking about. 313
Originally posted by Newjak
All because you want to have this weird delusion that white people that want to help end racism in this country are racists themselves.
Strawman of the century. Yeah, any "white person that wants to help" is who I'm talking about. dur
Originally posted by Newjak
Of course it seems more like the thing you really want to say is that all black persons troubles are strictly/mostly brought upon themselves. You also believe that they don't deserve any help despite the overwhelming evidence supporting the opposite.
Yeah, you've got me. I secretly hate black people. I'm tying a hangman's noose as I type this post. dur
Originally posted by Newjak
So you're making an unsupported claim that anyone who believes black people need help are racists trying to say the black person is inferior.
Another strawman. "Anyone" huh? dur
You're 3 for 3 on shit slinging points. You're just defecating onto your keyboard, at this point. Increase the maturity level of your posts just a bit. If you keep dwelling in these types shitposts, I'll have to downgrade you and stop respnoding. Me responding to you indicates I respect you enough to think you deserve a my time. But if you keep lying and making up shit about my positions, you're not worthy of my time or respect and I will just view you as a immature child who shit posts on a message board.
Originally posted by Newjak
It's seriously demented logic to try and make an unsupportive claim work for you. I would applaud the audacity and some what intelligent way you've tried to present it if it wasn't so silly and horrifying at the same time.
Cool! You've sooooo got me!
Now that your rage has got the better of you, you've talked your way out of this conversation. How about you stop talking to privileged white people and, instead, talk to an actual black man like I suggested. 🙂
Seriously. Do it. And be honest about it. Don't do the delusional and inappropriate strawman shit you do with me. Actually present my position honestly and ask if this is something the know about and/or feel. I'm asking you to go to a black man to ask him how he feels about "patronizing white sympathy." If you want to know how someone feels about subversive racism, ask the target of that racism. Don't talk to another privileged white guy on a forum. You don't believe it exists. It is impossible to poll this out of racist people, pretty much. So the only other option is to go to the actual people who are treated subhuman by the "benevolent white saviors."
Originally posted by Newjak
All the evidence supports the average black person faces more obstacles than the average white person. That our society has cultural bias against black people that makes it harder for them to achieve the same level as their white counterparts. That isn't fantasy like your claim that is actual evidence.
Wow. You went really far. Before, it was you acknowledging and talking about my position on how it is quite obvious there is a racism problem still in the US. Then you went on about how I'm not acknowledging the racism problem. Then in this post, you went on how I'm secretly am ultra-conservative that thinks all black people have to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. And then you conclude that I'm a "racism denier" at the end, here. lol
That's quite a bit of [insert negative phrase, here] on your part. You are incapable of having a level headed discussion. You don't like something so you rage and post delusional things. Why are you trying so hard to insult me and belittle me about subversive white racism? I'm I striking a nerve? Because that's not the intention. Why do you have so much interest in destroying my position? It seems you're fighting with every fiber in your being to deny my points. But...you do know that just because you argued with some genius on movie forum does not mean my point ceases to be true. Kick and scream all you want, but there is a real world out there beyond this message board. Subversive racism in the disguise of benevolence most certainly does exist. And many black people are offended by the patronizing attitudes. Worse, some people in the black community think that this subversive racism is literally killing them (see "blackgenocide"😉.
Deny and scream all you want: it's there. No matter how many words you type on a keyboard, you can't change that fact. 🙂
Well, it looks like you have sufficiently moved from your initial ridiculous point to what we said from the beginning. It's sad that you can't admit you were wrong, but at least you realized it in the end, even if we now have to watch you write an essay pretending you didn't completely change from what started this conversation. But I guess theres nothing to argue about now
Originally posted by dadudemonThis has struck nerve because it is a silly argument that doesn't seem to help solve the central problem presented in this thread. That black people statistically face a harder time than their white counterparts.
Didn't I just address this? No study or poll exists that could provide you what you're looking for. I even asked you how you would go about finding these people. I did bring up the problem with why it would be nearly impossible to find these types of people in any type of poll: social desirability bias.You've actually just dodged the point I brought up about your hilariously naive request: how would you actually poll these people with any sort of accuracy? 🙂
You do realize that the poll I posted is going to be very largely tainted by the social desirability bias problem, right? They pollsters cannot inflate the numbers to account for this problem...that'd be dishonest. It is very difficult to tell just how far and deep that racism really goes. This is not an appeal to ignorance, this is "oh, hey...this is a weakness in our polling."
The real question is, how many people do you think are closeted racists out there? You know, the types that may even "help" minorities but secretly look down on them?
I'm making up closeted racist white people who, superficially, give lip-service to the black community but probably lock their car doors when a black man walks past, clutches their purse when a group of black people walk past, etc.? You live under a rock if you think this subversive racists don't exist. And you're over here screaming, "DURR EVIDENCE! WHERE DAE EVIDENCE!"
On one hand, some people might say the abortion programs are an amazing program to keep minority women from being burdened in a cycle of poverty. These programs, pushed by seemingly kind and benevolent white benefactors, have caused a decline in crime in the black community, right? On the other hand, some minorities feel that this is the worst kind of racism because it is a "slow genocide of minorities" and it represents this subversive racism that I've been talking about.
Oh, you don't believe me that this is how some of the black community feels, eh?
http://www.blackgenocide.org/black.html
But, let's not forget, in your mind, black people are not offended by subversive racism. Racism disguised as patronizing benevolence. Oh no...what I'm talking about doesn't exist. And there is not a single black man in this country that knows what I'm talking about. 313
Strawman of the century. Yeah, any "white person that wants to help" is who I'm talking about. dur
Yeah, you've got me. I secretly hate black people. I'm tying a hangman's noose as I type this post. dur
Another strawman. "Anyone" huh? dur
You're 3 for 3 on shit slinging points. You're just defecating onto your keyboard, at this point. Increase the maturity level of your posts just a bit. If you keep dwelling in these types shitposts, I'll have to downgrade you and stop respnoding. Me responding to you indicates I respect you enough to think you deserve a my time. But if you keep lying and making up shit about my positions, you're not worthy of my time or respect and I will just view you as a immature child who shit posts on a message board.
Cool! You've sooooo got me!
Now that your rage has got the better of you, you've talked your way out of this conversation. How about you stop talking to privileged white people and, instead, talk to an actual black man like I suggested. 🙂
Seriously. Do it. And be honest about it. Don't do the delusional and inappropriate strawman shit you do with me. Actually present my position honestly and ask if this is something the know about and/or feel. I'm asking you to go to a black man to ask him how he feels about "patronizing white sympathy." If you want to know how someone feels about subversive racism, ask the target of that racism. Don't talk to another privileged white guy on a forum. You don't believe it exists. It is impossible to poll this out of racist people, pretty much. So the only other option is to go to the actual people who are treated subhuman by the "benevolent white saviors."
Wow. You went really far. Before, it was you acknowledging and talking about my position on how it is quite obvious there is a racism problem still in the US. Then you went on about how I'm not acknowledging the racism problem. Then in this post, you went on how I'm secretly am ultra-conservative that thinks all black people have to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. And then you conclude that I'm a "racism denier" at the end, here. lol
That's quite a bit of [insert negative phrase, here] on your part. You are incapable of having a level headed discussion. You don't like something so you rage and post delusional things. Why are you trying so hard to insult me and belittle me about subversive white racism? I'm I striking a nerve? Because that's not the intention. Why do you have so much interest in destroying my position? It seems you're fighting with every fiber in your being to deny my points. But...you do know that just because you argued with some genius on movie forum does not mean my point ceases to be true. Kick and scream all you want, but there is a real world out there beyond this message board. Subversive racism in the disguise of benevolence most certainly does exist. And many black people are offended by the patronizing attitudes. Worse, some people in the black community think that this subversive racism is literally killing them (see "blackgenocide"😉.
Deny and scream all you want: it's there. No matter how many words you type on a keyboard, you can't change that fact. 🙂
You keep saying I'm putting words into your mouth fine if that is the case. Do the people you describe exist yes. Just as there exist black people that are racists against other black people. White people that are racists against other white people. When confronted with those people you should call them out on their racism because it is not helpful.
Your problem though continues to be that based on your posts you present them as numerous, ton of them, and a serious problem without any evidence to back that up. You're rebuttal to not having evidence is for me to feel with my heart to know it is true. You also continue to tell me to talk to actual black people because you somehow believe this will confirm what you want. Like you know who I know and have talked to.That's not presenting evidence that is you trying to make something a problem without it being known if it is one.
So you're trying to solve a problem that may not even be a problem, and most likely isn't. So let me ask you this why should I concern myself with the people you describe? Why do you keep using terms like cuddling black people in your posts if it is not to say that you feel that any sort of benefit to them is a disservice? Why do you keep rebutting everything with talk to a black person without knowing who I know and have talked to or where I lived? On that front why what would you hope it would change?
Originally posted by Newjak
This has struck nerve because it is a silly argument that doesn't seem to help solve the central problem presented in this thread. That black people statistically face a harder time than their white counterparts.
Okay, fine. I accept that it has struck a nerve and I have not done the best job of making you satisfied with my problem. To cut out the bullshit and shitslinging, know that I readily acknowledge the racism that the black community faces. I have often posted about these issues over the years on KMC so it is not like I'm backpeddling on this issue. It is not new that I readily acknowledge that there is gross racism, to this day. So if you are willing to acknowledge that I'm not one of the ultra-conservative Christian "Racism doesn't exist" people, then I can work on toning down the harshness of my criticism. That should get rid of the massive chasm between yours and my posts.
Originally posted by Newjak
You keep saying I'm putting words into your mouth fine if that is the case. Do the people you describe exist yes.
Okay, that is really what I was looking for. That's really the only thing I continued to respond. If you admit to this, we have no argument. I find no reason to argue about how common/rampant the numbers are (the subversive racist white people). There's no need. This was my fundamental issue with what you've been posting: the words you incorrectly said I stated and the seeming denial of the subversive racist white "progressives." I see no reason for us to disagree anymore, really. My interest was in actual help. Meaningful work for the black community to help with the racism they still face WITHOUT becoming one of the subversive racist white people.
Originally posted by Newjak
Your problem though continues to be that based on your posts you present them as numerous, ton of them, and a serious problem without any evidence to back that up. You're rebuttal to not having evidence is for me to feel with my heart to know it is true. You also continue to tell me to talk to actual black people because you somehow believe this will confirm what you want. Like you know who I know and have talked to.That's not presenting evidence that is you trying to make something a problem without it being known if it is one.
Perhaps I am biased because I'm surrounded by these types of white people? That is possible and I wiling admit that. Maybe where you're from, people are more genuine. But, around me, these affluent white people who preach progressive messages and then say things that clearly indicates they are closeted racists tells me that this is a much bigger problem than Progressive Americans are willing to admit.
Originally posted by Newjak
So you're trying to solve a problem that may not even be a problem, and most likely isn't.
Man, I don't know. I don't think it is a problem that needs to directly be solved because it is an indirect problem (subtle racism will be nearly impossible to really solve). But some people in the black community see it is a problem (such as their protests about the "slow genocide"😉. For them, it is a problem that needs solving.
Originally posted by Newjak
So let me ask you this why should I concern myself with the people you describe?
Yes. You should be critical of abortion programs that seem to go out of their way to target minorities. You should be critical of social programs that make minorities dependent upon the state. Things like that should grab your attention. There are definitely progressive racists that disguise their racism with benevolence.
Originally posted by Newjak
Why do you keep using terms like cuddling black people in your posts if it is not to say that you feel that any sort of benefit to them is a disservice?
The word I used was "coddling." And that word is not my own. It came from a black professor who was tired of seeing subversively racist white people who are trying coddle black people (which, obviously, is insulting to some). Also, let me be clear that this idea is not my own idea. This is not some sort of dadudemon-ism.
Originally posted by Newjak
Why do you keep rebutting everything with talk to a black person...
Because it is difficult to genuinely understand the issue of being patronized by "white saviors" when you're white. Also, it is because this idea is something I actually had never heard of until recently and I heard it from several black men who like to talk about these things with me. It is more common than you think. People don't like to be thought of as, "Incapable of succeeding on their own", "they can't succeed without my help and money", or "I'm too dumb, due to my race, to succeed without special programs that make education easier (this one is a rather specific issue)".
Originally posted by Newjak
On that front why what would you hope it would change?
Sometimes, the only way to convince someone that an idea is offensive to a certain group of people is to talk directly to that group of people (this is an idea that is often discussed when trying to understand what it is like to be transgender: dealing with transphobia. But it also applies to this situation). It seemed like I was talking to a brick wall. My life experiences do lend a hand in helping me understand this issue...but I'm not really qualified to speak directly on it nor would I ever claim to be. I'm like a secondary or even tertiary source on this. It would be 10x more effective if you spoke to an actual black man or 10 to get an idea of what I'm talking about.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, it looks like you have sufficiently moved from your initial ridiculous point to what we said from the beginning. It's sad that you can't admit you were wrong, but at least you realized it in the end, even if we now have to watch you write an essay pretending you didn't completely change from what started this conversation. But I guess theres nothing to argue about now
You can keep posting shit like this but it just isn't true. My position has never changed. I still think many liberal Americans are just subversive racists. And that their patronizing words, ideas, and actions can be boiled down to, "ohhhh, poor black people! They are so savage and helpless! They need me to rescue them."
Just because you are hung up on words games (because you want to have an argument over closeted racists and subversive racism) doesn't mean my position has changed. All it means is you want to argue about something else, not that my point has changed.
More on topic, I think initiatives like these are pretty good:
Originally posted by dadudemon
You can keep posting shit like this but it just isn't true. My position has never changed. I still think many liberal Americans are just subversive racists. And that their patronizing words, ideas, and actions can be boiled down to, "ohhhh, poor black people! They are so savage and helpless! They need me to rescue them."Just because you are hung up on words games (because you want to have an argument over closeted racists and subversive racism) doesn't mean my position has changed. All it means is you want to argue about something else, not that my point has changed.
It is silly to pretend that there is not a difference between secret racism and benevolent racism. You treating them as the same thing is why this whole argument happened.
Originally posted by Bardock42
It is silly to pretend that there is not a difference between secret racism and benevolent racism.
I'll help you understand. The benevolent racist is secretly racist...sometimes. I'd say that some people think that they are just being helpful but don't realized that they are patronizing.
Originally posted by Bardock42
You treating them as the same thing is why this whole argument happened.
No, this whole argument happened because you injected a red herring into the discussion because you mostly agree with my point but don't like it. So, like you usually do, you try to turn it into a word game about a tangential topic just to be right about something. That's what you do and have done for years. And I argue about anything, am stubborn as f*ck, and can be obstinate. 😐
This is what we do. Now let's move on.
Okay, regardless of who we think is to blame for the tangent. The crux of our disagreement seems to be that you think "subversive racists" are common amongst people who are for civil rights, and I think they are uncommon (disregarding that we haven't defined common and uncommon yet). Would you agree with that?
Originally posted by Bardock42
...you think "subversive racists" are common amongst people who are for civil rights,
I would not take such a strong stance as "common." Stick to my words. Don't use your own. This avoids strawman issues.
Originally posted by Bardock42
...and I think they are uncommon (disregarding that we haven't defined common and uncommon yet). Would you agree with that?
Oh, I see what you're doing. You're shifting the argument/discussion to something absurdly ambiguous and untenable. The only thing I need from our discussion is:
1. These people I describe exist. <-If you agree that they do exist, regardless of their percentages in American Progressives, then we are good.
2. That we should be careful not to patronize the black community and to avoid self-righteous back pats for shit that actually makes us subversively racist.
If you agree with 1 and 2, we have nothing to argue about.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I would not take such a strong stance as "common." Stick to my words. Don't use your own. This avoids strawman issues.Oh, I see what you're doing. You're shifting the argument/discussion to something absurdly ambiguous and untenable. The only thing I need from our discussion is:
1. These people I describe exist. <-If you agree that they do exist, regardless of their percentages in American Progressives, then we are good.
2. That we should be careful not to patronize the black community and to avoid self-righteous back pats for shit that actually makes us subversively racist.If you agree with 1 and 2, we have nothing to argue about.
I was asking whether you would agree with the summary, surely not even you can call that a strawman.
I agree with 1 and 2.
I just don't agree that quite a bit of the American liberal sentiment boils down to the kind of racism you described. And I think the differences that both Newjak and me have explained are valid.