Goku vs Superman Death Battle-Discuss

Originally posted by RealityWarper
Well, please share your point of view on this forum.

Actually I did already multiple time, truth be told but it comes down to this:

DB chars powerlevels are based on chi, the stronger they are the more chi they have to use for shielding, striking, blasting, it's more or less like mana. Their attacks are then like spells or if physical, spell amped (not magic but chi spells). So they need to learn stronger attacks to overcome enemies with more chi quicker and if you attack someone with a let's say 500 pyhsical chi amped attack and he has 1000 mana at his disposal, he will only get hurt, if at all by the hysical part, the rest is tanked by the manashield. If he has 400 and he gets hit, 100 he has to tank with his body. That also means that spending mana for attacks might cost you later some for defense, you can get exhausted.

Now while this works pretty good to explain the controversal portrayals of the DB char powerlevels it leaves us with one insight. The DB chars are not that powerful without their chi. This is even proven on screen with Sayans being almost killed by a simple laser, having problems under water, in space, near vulcanos, in suns or being hurt by bullets. Sure Goku tanked this bullet with his skin but it still hurt him. Why? Because he didn't try to defleckt or block it with a spell.

Superman tanked recently an energy attack that channeled every source from the multiverse, magic, power batteries and and and, he also tanks physically superior attacks regularely. Sure lowballers would say that collateral damage was low but the same can be said about all fights on DB earth. The attack was directed at Supes and he stood and tanked it. So I know that he can take the best DB chars can offer from energy attacks.

However, since DB chars are very strong strikers and can tank those chi attacks with their own chi reserves it means they could hurt Supes to some degree but in turn would have very weak defenses against pure phyiscal strikes.

Example:
They amp their speed, durability and striking strength with chi, let's say the MA-chi-tech they developed for this amps it to supermans levels, if we are generous 😉. Now we say it's 10000 health, (9900 chi, 100 pure phys which is still leagues above humans), 1000 striking strength (990 chi, 10 phys) and 1000 speed (990 chi, 10 phys) and 1000 durability (990 chi, 10 phys). Superman has the same stats, all 10000 or 1000 but pure phys. Now he gets hit by an amped attack with 1000 strength, he loses 990 health (because we say he is weak to chi, else he would tank everything), has still 9010 to keep on fighting. Gokus spend 990 chi for this attack has only 8910 chi left to keep on fighting, def and attack. Now superman strikes him with a 1000 phys strike, since contrary to his normal chi based opponent attacks, this one is purely pyiscal, he has to tank the 1000 with his 10 phys durability and loses 990. So he has now 8910 chi and -890 health... you get the point.

This is just an example, the numbers if calculated would be much more different, I once calculated base Supermans strength as powerlevel for DB based on actual DB and Superman feats.

So this is my reasoning and from all i have read it's the best explanation on this matter I have seen yet.

Another thing, is Superman could win a lot easier if morals are off.

All he has to do is destroy the Earth's atmosphere, which the Phantom Zone Criminals did on an alternate Earth rather easily.

Goku would never even get to fight, he can't survive in a vacuum.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Actually I did already multiple time, truth be told but it comes down to this:

DB chars powerlevels are based on chi, the stronger they are the more chi they have to use for shielding, striking, blasting, it's more or less like mana. Their attacks are then like spells or if physical, spell amped (not magic but chi spells). So they need to learn stronger attacks to overcome enemies with more chi quicker and if you attack someone with a let's say 500 pyhsical chi amped attack and he has 1000 mana at his disposal, he will only get hurt, if at all by the hysical part, the rest is tanked by the manashield. If he has 400 and he gets hit, 100 he has to tank with his body. That also means that spending mana for attacks might cost you later some for defense, you can get exhausted.

Heeeey I'm not sure this works that way mate.

I think that the term of "spell" is not appropriate.

The Chi is the Life-Force / Spiritual Energy and it support the stats of the users. It's basically the more Chi the user has, the more powerful he is but not just that.

There is also the techniques that trump (Donald) the basic application of the Chi. The techniques aren't spells, they are just martial arts techniques that requires the user to focus his Chi in different ways.

I understand your point of view but I'm not sure that it make sense that way.

Moreover we see characters like Beerus using largely less energy than Frieza to one-shot a planet, when Frieza uses a Death Ball the size of a basketball to bust a planet, Beerus just use a sparkle of his Chi to atomize it so the expenditure of energy doesn't equal the damages, etc...

Now while this works pretty good to explain the controversal portrayals of the DB char powerlevels it leaves us with one insight. The DB chars are not that powerful without their chi.

Technically without Chi, everyone is dead, including Superman.

Superman isn't very powerful without his Solar Energy neither.

This is even proven on screen with Sayans being almost killed by a simple laser, having problems under water, in space, near vulcanos, in suns or being hurt by bullets. Sure Goku tanked this bullet with his skin but it still hurt him. Why? Because he didn't try to defleckt or block it with a spell.

That's pretty much the same thing for every weakened characters once their power-source is almost depleted.

Even us, humans, are weaker when we are running out of stamina, if you practice a sport regularly you know what I am talking about.

Superman tanked recently an energy attack that channeled every source from the multiverse, magic, power batteries and and and, he also tanks physically superior attacks regularely. Sure lowballers would say that collateral damage was low but the same can be said about all fights on DB earth. The attack was directed at Supes and he stood and tanked it. So I know that he can take the best DB chars can offer from energy attacks.

I would like to check that feat again.

Do you mind remembering me the issue please ?

However, since DB chars are very strong strikers and can tank those chi attacks with their own chi reserves it means they could hurt Supes to some degree but in turn would have very weak defenses against pure phyiscal strikes.

Technically they don't exhaust themselves more than anyone, they just operate at another power-level.

Example:
They amp their speed, durability and striking strength with chi, let's say the MA-chi-tech they developed for this amps it to supermans levels, if we are generous 😉. Now we say it's 10000 health, (9900 chi, 100 pure phys which is still leagues above humans), 1000 striking strength (990 chi, 10 phys) and 1000 speed (990 chi, 10 phys) and 1000 durability (990 chi, 10 phys). Superman has the same stats, all 10000 or 1000 but pure phys. Now he gets hit by an amped attack with 1000 strength, he loses 990 health (because we say he is weak to chi, else he would tank everything), has still 9010 to keep on fighting. Gokus spend 990 chi for this attack has only 8910 chi left to keep on fighting, def and attack. Now superman strikes him with a 1000 phys strike, since contrary to his normal chi based opponent attacks, this one is purely pyiscal, he has to tank the 1000 with his 10 phys durability and loses 990. So he has now 8910 chi and -890 health... you get the point.

This is just an example, the numbers if calculated would be much more different, I once calculated base Supermans strength as powerlevel for DB based on actual DB and Superman feats.

I'm not agreeing with this one ^^

We have two characters with two different power-sources but they doesn't equal each other.

You are still ignoring the fact that Chi-based attacks ignores Superman's defences and undermine his powers. 😛

So this is my reasoning and from all i have read it's the best explanation on this matter I have seen yet.

Well, that's one way to see it but I don't agree on the mechanics.

There is a more simple way to see it?

Honestly, my personal skepticism of Dragon Ball's ability to keep up with DC/Marvel in physical contests stems from early DB. I'd like to just equate the effectiveness of their physical abilities to their energy abilities like most others do, because that's simpler, but when you have someone who can deflect an island-busting energy blast but still be hurt by a punch that can barely crack stone tile, or be weighed down by 250 pounds of clothing, it's hard not to be suspicious.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Honestly, my personal skepticism of Dragon Ball's ability to keep up with DC/Marvel in physical contests stems from early DB. I'd like to just equate the effectiveness of their physical abilities to their energy abilities like most others do, because that's simpler, but when you have someone who can deflect an island-busting energy blast but still be hurt by a punch that can barely crack stone tile, or be weighed down by 250 pounds of clothing, it's hard not to be suspicious.

We have similar things in comics.

Superman can absorb different kind of energies but he still hurt by punches.

In DB the destructive capacity of the techniques varies a lot too.

The Kamehameha is a concentrated energy attack.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Honestly, my personal skepticism of Dragon Ball's ability to keep up with DC/Marvel in physical contests stems from early DB. I'd like to just equate the effectiveness of their physical abilities to their energy abilities like most others do, because that's simpler, but when you have someone who can deflect an island-busting energy blast but still be hurt by a punch that can barely crack stone tile, or be weighed down by 250 pounds of clothing, it's hard not to be suspicious.

Who was hurt by a punch that can barely crack stone?

Originally posted by RealityWarper
We have similar things in comics.

Superman can absorb different kind of energies but he still hurt by punches.

In DB the destructive capacity of the techniques varies a lot too.

The Kamehameha is a concentrated energy attack.

I just posted in this same thread Superman at full power being unable to lift 2 tons. New Guy is full of it.

Originally posted by carver9
I just posted in this same thread Superman at full power being unable to lift 2 tons. New Guy is full of it.

Haha ^^

When that happened ?

Originally posted by RealityWarper
We have similar things in comics.

In comics you deal with inconsistency between portrayals, largely because a massive number of content creators are involved with the storytelling. That's acknowledged by everybody, Superman has been portrayed as very weak and very strong by different authors. Dragon Ball has those sorts of inconsistencies too when you compare certain elements of the original manga to the movies/anime, but that's not what I'm talking about.

What I mean is that constantly throughout Dragon Ball, the physical feats of the characters have been totally underwhelming compared to their energy feats, the infamous 40-ton scene being one example. This is most obvious in early DB, where you have blasts that can blow away entire cities, but even their most intense brawls where they're slamming each other around doesn't even destroy the tiny fighting arena they're on.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
In comics you deal with inconsistency between portrayals, largely because a massive number of content creators are involved with the storytelling. That's acknowledged by everybody, Superman has been portrayed as very weak and very strong by different authors. Dragon Ball has those sorts of inconsistencies too when you compare certain elements of the original manga to the movies/anime, but that's not what I'm talking about.

What I mean is that constantly throughout Dragon Ball, the physical feats of the characters have been totally underwhelming compared to their energy feats, the infamous 40-ton scene being one example. This is most obvious in early DB, where you have blasts that can blow away entire cities, but even their most intense brawls where they're slamming each other around doesn't even destroy the tiny fighting arena they're on.

So show us the most damage Superman has done in a physical fight. The famous Doomsday vs Superman fight that killed him only laid waste to a city block.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
In comics you deal with inconsistency between portrayals, largely because a massive number of content creators are involved with the storytelling. That's acknowledged by everybody, Superman has been portrayed as very weak and very strong by different authors. Dragon Ball has those sorts of inconsistencies too when you compare certain elements of the original manga to the movies/anime, but that's not what I'm talking about.

What I mean is that constantly throughout Dragon Ball, the physical feats of the characters have been totally underwhelming compared to their energy feats, the infamous 40-ton scene being one example. This is most obvious in early DB, where you have blasts that can blow away entire cities, but even their most intense brawls where they're slamming each other around doesn't even destroy the tiny fighting arena they're on.

The reason is that they are martial arts practitioners, the purpose of their training is to increase the striking power, etc...

The energy blast have always been above the physical strikes but they are more predictable and by nature more expensive in energy that regular physical strikes.

Originally posted by carver9

MULLET SUPERMAN

lmao a feat from a thousand years ago.

Same Superman crushed Lobo and threw a ship the size of a continent. And Kenny used Kryptonite as a weapon, Superman was weakened.

Originally posted by carver9
So show us the most damage Superman has done in a physical fight. The famous Doomsday vs Superman fight that killed him only laid waste to a city block.

I'm comparing Dragon Ball's physical feats to it's energy feats, not Goku to Superman specifically.

The reason is that they are martial arts practitioners, the purpose of their training is to increase the striking power, etc...

The energy blast have always been above the physical strikes but they are more predictable and by nature more expensive in energy that regular physical strikes.

Right, but take the Goku vs Piccolo Jr. fight as an example. Piccolo unleashes a nuclear+++ level blast that levels the entire island, and Goku is barely fazed. Yet when Piccolo was slammed into the ground by Goku, an attack that didn't even have enough force to break the stone floor, that was able to deal damage? Do you have any panels of Superman throwing a planet-sized ship but then struggling with two tons in the same scene? I very much doubt it, and the fact that Dragon Ball does makes me think that their resilience against ki blasts is different than their resilience against physical attacks.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I'm comparing Dragon Ball's physical feats to it's energy feats, not Goku to Superman specifically.

Right, but take the Goku vs Piccolo Jr. fight as an example. Piccolo unleashes a nuclear+++ level blast that levels the entire island, and Goku is barely fazed. Yet when Piccolo was slammed into the ground by Goku, an attack that didn't even have enough force to break the stone floor, that was able to deal damage? Do you have any panels of Superman throwing a planet-sized ship but then struggling with two tons in the same scene? I very much doubt it, and the fact that Dragon Ball does makes me think that their resilience against ki blasts is different than their resilience against physical attacks.

Goku black and tank the attacks ^^

...I have no idea what that means, sorry.

blocked*

Originally posted by cdtm
lmao a feat from a thousand years ago.

Same Superman crushed Lobo and threw a ship the size of a continent. And Kenny used Kryptonite as a weapon, Superman was weakened.

And the ft he is talking about for Goku is older than that.

He threw a ship in space that doesn't have any gravity.

Because throwing a massive object in space is something a granny can do amiright? 😆

Hey, planets are in space too! Moving one is so unimpressive.

Do you think a lb of iron is lighter then a lb of feathers? 😂

Interesting opinion from one of our better posters on cosmic powers:

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
[B]Ii do agree that the likes of Goku, Hit, Vegeta, Frieza, etc aren't necessarily capable of destroying the universe.

Even post crisis Superman has survived universal scale attacks. 👆