Originally posted by ares834
Nah, you're wrong. You're treating infinity to simply.Cantor basically proved that their are more numbers between 0 and 1 then their are integers. Since there are infinite integers, there are effectively some infinities are "bigger" than others. And no, this doesn't have to do with "∞ + 1 = ∞".
No, YOU'RE wrong. You're treating infinity too complexly.
Cantor only proved that there can't be bijection between all integers, and numbers between 0 and 1 in a set. However, this doesn't prove that there are less numbers in the set of integers, as it does not rule out the possibility that the former are sub-countable.
FURTHER, it raises paradox's in the attempt to further the argument, such as demonstrable through Russell's paradox.
There are plenty of other assertions to debunk this argument, but the existence of a paradox in Cantor's argument flaws it from the ground up.
Essentially, your definition of the term, "infinity", is too reliant on integers being limited, which is not the case. 👆
So again, infinity = infinity.
Originally posted by juggerman
The writer's intention was clear. Why are people trying to "debunk" it? The only reason is because it hurts the Goku camp.The better stance is that while he may have infinite lifting strength, he doesn't seem to have infinite punching power or infinite durability.
The writers intention doesn't matter.
If he makes the characters unable to do something on their own, then they cannot do something on their own.
And since Shazam and Superman BOTH lifted the book, it proves that the book did not weight infinite weight, as NO MATTER HOW YOU SLICE IT, INFINITY DIVIDED BY 2, IS INFINITY.
Meaning that Shazam is either as strong as Superman, and they both lifted infinite weight, or Shazam was strong enough to assist Superman, and neither lifted infinite weight. WHICH IS THE OBVIOUS CASE. 👆
Regardless of the writer's intention, he/she should have read up on their facts before trying to suggest that infinity can be divided to become smaller.
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Ultraman, a version of Superman lifted it by himself.The writer stated that it has infinite pages, so Superman lifted infinity, deal with it. What the writer intended and showed on panel is a fact, while your opinion is just the butthurt carried over to kmc because of the latest Deathbattle. But keep on deluding yourself, just stop lying and pretending you can change the canon facts of comics.
Do you have the scan, first off?
Secondly, even if Ultraman lifted it himself, it proves nothing, other than the weight of the book is finite.
If Shazam lifted 1% of it's weight, and provided enough strength for Superman to lift the weight, it means that NOT ONLY was Superman not lifting at full strength, which means that since infinite weight can only be lifted by infinite strength that the weight was not infinite, but ALSO that Shazam lifted a PERCENTAGE of the weight. And since any percentage of infinity is infinity, it means that the weight was finite, since Shazam does not have infinite strength. Meaning that Superman doesn't either. 👆
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
No, YOU'RE wrong. You're treating infinity too complexly.Cantor only proved that there can't be bijection between all integers, and numbers between 0 and 1 in a set. However, this doesn't prove that there are less numbers in the set of integers, as it does not rule out the possibility that the former are sub-countable.
FURTHER, it raises paradox's in the attempt to further the argument, such as demonstrable through Russell's paradox.
There are plenty of other assertions to debunk this argument, but the existence of a paradox in Cantor's argument flaws it from the ground up.
Essentially, your definition of the term, "infinity", is too reliant on integers being limited, which is not the case. 👆
So again, infinity = infinity.
Lol
You clearly have no clue what you are talking about. Not only are you pretty much quoting wiki verbatim at times, but you are completely misunderstanding what the paradox is. It is not a paradox in Cantor's diagonal proof (proof not argument) but rather a paradox formed in a similar manner. And everything after that I has nothing to do with anything I said. Integers being limited? Wut? I never said or implied that.
Originally posted by ares834
LolYou clearly have no clue what you are talking about. Not only are you pretty much quoting wiki verbatim at times, but you are completely misunderstanding what the paradox is. It is not a paradox in Cantor's diagonal proof (proof not argument) but rather a paradox formed in a similar manner. And everything after that I has nothing to do with anything I said. Integers being limited? Wut? I never said or implied that.
You're relying solely on Cantor's argument(Yes, it is an ARGUMENT, as in, it is a theory, nothing more), which is based on integers being limited.
And the paradox is formed in Cantor's argument.
"The proof of Cantor's theorem is straightforwardly adapted to show that assuming a set of all sets U exists, then considering its Russell set RU leads to the contradiction:
"This argument is known as Russell's paradox.[1] As a point of subtlety, the version of Russell's paradox we have presented here is actually a theorem of Zermelo;[5] we can conclude from the contradiction obtained that we must reject the hypothesis that RU∈U, thus disproving the existence of a set containing all sets. This was possible because we have used restricted comprehension (as featured in ZFC) in the definition of RA above, which in turn entailed that-"
^Funny Mr. Google vs Mr. Wiki *grabspopcorn* .
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Do you have the scan, first off?Secondly, even if Ultraman lifted it himself, it proves nothing, other than the weight of the book is finite.
If Shazam lifted 1% of it's weight, and provided enough strength for Superman to lift the weight, it means that NOT ONLY was Superman not lifting at full strength, which means that since infinite weight can only be lifted by infinite strength that the weight was not infinite, but ALSO that Shazam lifted a PERCENTAGE of the weight. And since any percentage of infinity is infinity, it means that the weight was finite, since Shazam does not have infinite strength. Meaning that Superman doesn't either. 👆
Regardless of the writer's intention, he/she should have read up on their facts before trying to suggest that infinity can be divided to become smaller.
😂 It proofs that it's finite? Lol, you are talking out of your ass in desperation now. The writer clearly told us that the books has infinite pages and as such is infinite heavy, the intention was clear.
Ok, first Superman as a good guy doesn't takes risks, he takes help if it lowers those risks, and the risk was the whole creation. Second, taken ON PANEL feats and WRITER FACTS, you can make an argument for one of the two cases, with which I have no problem at all:
a) Shazam and Superman are peers, they both have infinite strength and each one lifted half of infinity which is still infinity.
b) Shazam lifted as much as he could, his max limit, let's say it is 200 Septillion tons. Either he has infinite strength or he doesn't, if he doesn't he has to have a max strength, so we can take any number as it won't matter at all as you will see. So we now need the percentage of infinity he lifted, this would be (200 Septillion tons)/infinity, which is? See, the rest was lifted by Superman.
In both cases, which are the only options you have in order to argue with the ON PANEL STATEMENT, WRITER STATEMENT, FACT, you have still an infinite weight and infinite strength of Superman, Ultraman (alternate version of Superman) and maybe Shazam.
The writer can do whatever he wants in comics, if you take the RL argument into account you can dump any comic/manga/fiction. If the writer wants to have infinity divided by two and still require infinite strength it is not up to you to decide if it is canon or not, writer > you. Got it? Especially since infinity is a concept/theory and can be approached in differen't ways, especially in fiction (comis).
Something to educate you further on the Final Crisis:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/85444/2653971-final_crisis_07_page_028_029.jpg
Morrison took all the heroes who were inspired by Superman (copies of Superman) in his Supermen of the Multiverse "team". This is the reason why Billy is also there and can be seen also as an alternate version of Superman.
To further show you the place Superman has in the DC Verse:
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff492/twinzeeto/Supes/InfiniteCrisis0523_zps1e098ad6.jpg~original
Everything comes from Superman, on panel.
I know you can't stand that they let Superman win again and that Goku will never be able to beat him, ok, but don't go around spilling lies and pretending you know better what the writer wanted to say, even though it is clear as day what he told us, in order to "prove" that this DB was wrong on all accounts and Goku wins.
Again, the writers intention was to show that Superman can do the impossible, succeed even against impossible odds, containing the uncontainable, lifting the infinite weight. Infinity is only a mean to show the limits of something and that's why it was chosen by Morrision to show that there is no limit to Superman (the good, the story) if it's required to beat the evil.
Originally posted by yungz22
that literally makes no senseinfinity doesn't have a size it goes on forever
a) You beginn to count from 1 till infinity, how many numbers do you have?
b) You go from 1 backwards, to 0, -1 till -infinity AND forward as in a, how many numbers do you have?
c) You go in between 1 and 2, - 1,1 - 1,01 - 1,001 - etc. till infinity, how many number do you have bewteen 1 and 2?
Now what is the "bigger" infinity? a (1 ; infinity) is part o b (-infinity ; infinity+), c ( ]1;2[ ) is part of a and b.
😉
😛
Originally posted by ares834
LolYou clearly have no clue what you are talking about. Not only are you pretty much quoting wiki verbatim at times, but you are completely misunderstanding what the paradox is. It is not a paradox in Cantor's diagonal proof (proof not argument) but rather a paradox formed in a similar manner. And everything after that I has nothing to do with anything I said. Integers being limited? Wut? I never said or implied that.
I knew Gogeta was a complete troll, he's been regurgitating shitapedia for a while, glad someone else caught on.
What a loser.
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
^Funny Mr. Google vs Mr. Wiki *grabspopcorn* .😂 It proofs that it's finite? Lol, you are talking out of your ass in desperation now. The writer clearly told us that the books has infinite pages and as such is infinite heavy, the intention was clear.
Ok, first Superman as a good guy doesn't takes risks, he takes help if it lowers those risks, and the risk was the whole creation. Second, taken ON PANEL feats and WRITER FACTS, you can make an argument for one of the two cases, with which I have no problem at all:
a) Shazam and Superman are peers, they both have infinite strength and each one lifted half of infinity which is still infinity.
b) Shazam lifted as much as he could, his max limit, let's say it is 200 Septillion tons. Either he has infinite strength or he doesn't, if he doesn't he has to have a max strength, so we can take any number as it won't matter at all as you will see. So we now need the percentage of infinity he lifted, this would be (200 Septillion tons)/infinity, which is? See, the rest was lifted by Superman.
In both cases, which are the only options you have in order to argue with the ON PANEL STATEMENT, WRITER STATEMENT, FACT, you have still an infinite weight and infinite strength of Superman, Ultraman (alternate version of Superman) and maybe Shazam.
The writer can do whatever he wants in comics, if you take the RL argument into account you can dump any comic/manga/fiction. If the writer wants to have infinity divided by two and still require infinite strength it is not up to you to decide if it is canon or not, writer > you. Got it? Especially since infinity is a concept/theory and can be approached in differen't ways, especially in fiction (comis).
Something to educate you further on the Final Crisis:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/85444/2653971-final_crisis_07_page_028_029.jpgMorrison took all the heroes who were inspired by Superman (copies of Superman) in his Supermen of the Multiverse "team". This is the reason why Billy is also there and can be seen also as an alternate version of Superman.
To further show you the place Superman has in the DC Verse:
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff492/twinzeeto/Supes/InfiniteCrisis0523_zps1e098ad6.jpg~originalEverything comes from Superman, on panel.
I know you can't stand that they let Superman win again and that Goku will never be able to beat him, ok, but don't go around spilling lies and pretending you know better what the writer wanted to say, even though it is clear as day what he told us, in order to "prove" that this DB was wrong on all accounts and Goku wins.
Again, the writers intention was to show that Superman can do the impossible, succeed even against impossible odds, containing the uncontainable, lifting the infinite weight. Infinity is only a mean to show the limits of something and that's why it was chosen by Morrision to show that there is no limit to Superman (the good, the story) if it's required to beat the evil.
How do you read the end of an infinite book?
Originally posted by cdtm
How do you read the [b]end of an infinite book? [/B]
This was one of the points of FC, Ultraman and Mandrakk have both read it, but evil only sees what it wants to see, they had every book possible in their possesion and read only that parts (chapters) that had their "ending" the evil ending. This was the point of the machine with the infinite memory, this was the way for superman to find the "good" ending, the perfect ending against all odds, that the evil didn't see.
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
^Funny Mr. Google vs Mr. Wiki *grabspopcorn* .😂 It proofs that it's finite? Lol, you are talking out of your ass in desperation now. The writer clearly told us that the books has infinite pages and as such is infinite heavy, the intention was clear.
Ok, first Superman as a good guy doesn't takes risks, he takes help if it lowers those risks, and the risk was the whole creation. Second, taken ON PANEL feats and WRITER FACTS, you can make an argument for one of the two cases, with which I have no problem at all:
a) Shazam and Superman are peers, they both have infinite strength and each one lifted half of infinity which is still infinity.
b) Shazam lifted as much as he could, his max limit, let's say it is 200 Septillion tons. Either he has infinite strength or he doesn't, if he doesn't he has to have a max strength, so we can take any number as it won't matter at all as you will see. So we now need the percentage of infinity he lifted, this would be (200 Septillion tons)/infinity, which is? See, the rest was lifted by Superman.
In both cases, which are the only options you have in order to argue with the ON PANEL STATEMENT, WRITER STATEMENT, FACT, you have still an infinite weight and infinite strength of Superman, Ultraman (alternate version of Superman) and maybe Shazam.
The writer can do whatever he wants in comics, if you take the RL argument into account you can dump any comic/manga/fiction. If the writer wants to have infinity divided by two and still require infinite strength it is not up to you to decide if it is canon or not, writer > you. Got it? Especially since infinity is a concept/theory and can be approached in differen't ways, especially in fiction (comis).
Something to educate you further on the Final Crisis:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/85444/2653971-final_crisis_07_page_028_029.jpgMorrison took all the heroes who were inspired by Superman (copies of Superman) in his Supermen of the Multiverse "team". This is the reason why Billy is also there and can be seen also as an alternate version of Superman.
To further show you the place Superman has in the DC Verse:
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff492/twinzeeto/Supes/InfiniteCrisis0523_zps1e098ad6.jpg~originalEverything comes from Superman, on panel.
I know you can't stand that they let Superman win again and that Goku will never be able to beat him, ok, but don't go around spilling lies and pretending you know better what the writer wanted to say, even though it is clear as day what he told us, in order to "prove" that this DB was wrong on all accounts and Goku wins.
Again, the writers intention was to show that Superman can do the impossible, succeed even against impossible odds, containing the uncontainable, lifting the infinite weight. Infinity is only a mean to show the limits of something and that's why it was chosen by Morrision to show that there is no limit to Superman (the good, the story) if it's required to beat the evil.
That whole scan you just posted PROVES that I'm right. If the book was infinite, THERE WOULDN'T BE AN END TO IT. 👆
The entire argument you just posted is an argument that argues MY point, lol. If everyone reads a different book INSIDE the book of infinity, then only ONE book exists in it at a time. This follows cannon, since limbo is where "matter and memory cease to exist", meaning that it might have infinite books, but only one exists at a time. Good job, genius. You pretty much just proved my whole argument right. 😆
And fyi, here's Merryman even stating that there is only one book in it at a time.
First, Superman has taken risks PLENTY of times. He takes a risk every time he lets a bad guy walk away, without killing them.
Secondly, YES, those ARE the two arguments you can make. So I'll show you AGAIN why BOTH are wrong. 👆
1. If Shazam and Superman are both infinitely powerful, then what does that make Wonder Woman? Shazam has the strength of Hercules, and Wonder Woman is EXPLICITLY STRONGER than Hercules. You can NOT be stronger than an infinite strength. It just doesn't work that way. So this argument is clearly bogus, as Shazam is weaker than Wonder Woman, who couldn't even move the War World.
2. This argument is EQUALLY silly, lol. Shazam RELIEVED the strain from Superman, AS SUPERMAN EVEN STATED. Meaning that if Shazam was lifting even just a tiny 0.00000000000000000000001% of the book, he was STILL lifting infinity.
So in both cases, the weight HAS to be finite, otherwise, Shazam's help wouldn't have mattered. And Superman would have told him to stay away, since Shazam was dying just from holding it. His skull started ringing the second they picked it up, for christ sake. So Superman obviously NEEDED his help, or he wouldn't have put the ten year old Billy Batson in danger of dying, now would he?
Originally posted by yungz22
Gogeta your literally arguing against the english language at this point. you cant chagr the definition of infinity just because you dont like it.your famboyism knows no bounds.
If that's what you think, then you clearly don't know what the definition of infinity is.
"The state or quality of being infinite.", that is the definition of the word infinity. Meaning that if the book WAS infinite, there would BE no end to it, meaning that Ultraman himself proved that it was FINITE.
I don't know why I'm explaining this to the short bus driver anyway, I'm just wasting my time with you.
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
a) You beginn to count from 1 till infinity, how many numbers do you have?b) You go from 1 backwards, to 0, -1 till -infinity AND forward as in a, how many numbers do you have?
c) You go in between 1 and 2, - 1,1 - 1,01 - 1,001 - etc. till infinity, how many number do you have bewteen 1 and 2?
Now what is the "bigger" infinity? a (1 ; infinity) is part o b (-infinity ; infinity+), c ( ]1;2[ ) is part of a and b.
😉
😛
NONE ARE BIGGER. They are all three INFINITE.
That is your problem. You're imagining infinity as a set of finite numbers, when it is STRICTLY LIMITLESS BY DEFINITION.
In all three of the settings you just brought up, the numbers would go on until infinity, and be INFINITE. There is no upper limit to infinity, AS IT IS ENDLESS, BY DEFINITION.
I've already proven you wrong on this, so there's no point in furthering this ridiculous, third grade interpretation of a word, just so you can make your favorite character look like a badass. 👇
