Originally posted by Aurbere
[B]Fortunately I'm almost done with it. Should be posted either this weekend or the weekend of the 7th.
Oh awesome! That reminds me that i need to get you the Force abilities from Yoda's entry in the Sourcebook
I hadn't even thought of that, haha! 😛
I've got the memory of an elephant 😛(occasionally)
These were not mere Sith Apprentices.
If only you hadn't gone on for three paragraphs literally proving that they're Sith Apprentices... an apprentice is an apprentice. If you have any sort of proof that these Sith Apprentice's perceptions are greater than those of a Magnaguard then perhaps I'd concede this, but your argument is astoundingly baseless. These Magnaguards were designed to keep up with the fastest Jedi, one almost felling Kenobi, whose speed was described as blinding by Count Dooku.
And I did notice that there’s a quote from the beginning of Bane and Kas’im’s fight that is very similar to the quote you provided as evidence for Shaak Ti being faster than Marek.
Kas'im sighed. "Then your life ends here." And be leapt in, his weapon moving with far more speed than he had ever shown during their practice sessions. Parrying the first sequence Bane realized his former Master had always been holding something in reserve . . . just as Bane himself had done in the early stages of his battle against Sirak. Only now was he seeing Kas'im's true ability, and he was barely able to defend himself. Barely, but still able.-POD
Bane could defend against Kas'im with typical dueling. Marek had to barrage her with Lightning and Sarlacc teeth just to keep her from decapitating him. How are the two comparable again? mmm
Marek is 1.85 meters tall and Juno described him as “thin as a whip”, while Bane is 2 meters tall, has been described as “a mountain of muscle” and a “heavily muscled giant”, and was the most heavily muscled cortosis miner on apatros ("Whoever worked the mines on Apatros got big-and Des just happened to become the biggest of them all.”-POD), so I’m really not seeing how Marek’s physicality rival’s Bane’s in regards to strength. I also haven’t seen any feats of physical augmentation from Marek that suggest he could match Bane’s strength.
Perhaps, it's true Marek lacks a multitude of Strength feats, although what he does have aren't anything to suggest he is significantly weaker than Bane. Starkiller's force reserves are significantly larger than Bane's, and he kept up with the likes of Darth Vader, someone who's far and away Bane's superior.
Actual physical muscle rarely actually matters, when judging Force Users. Obi-Wan wasn't much to look at, yet he quite happily contended with Darth Maul. Shaak Ti's mostly skin and bone, yet she round house kicked a 3 tonne Steel door 20m into the air: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-5065446 (credit to Ant)
Though since technical skill isn’t everything, let’s take a look at practical application of dueling abilities in combat. Shaak Ti’s feat of fighting a dozen magna guards is no doubt incredibly impressive, and I personally view it as probably her best dueling feat given the skill of the magna guards and the sheer number of them she was facing.Bane actually has a very similar feat, defeating an entire pack of 12 Tuk’ata with only his lightsaber skills.
"The second attack had been far bloodier. While exploring one of the most recent tombs he'd found himself surrounded by a dozen tuk'ata: a pack twice the size of the first. He'd unleashed his lightsaber on them, slicing through flesh and bone. When the pack finally broke and fled, only four of the twelve tuk'ata still lived.”-POD
Really? Tuk'ata are the same as Magnaguards?
Tuk'ata vary in size astronomically. They can be anything from the size of a dog, to the size of small cars. It's been shown how much they vary in numerous different sources, since plenty of people have managed to fare better against Tuk'ata than those you listed, who are their superiors. The Exile faced packs on a Dark Side Nexus, killing far more than a dozen in total. Darth Talon managed to kill Nihl's personally trained Tuk'ata in the middle of their fight, despite the fact Nihl should be for all intents and purposes her superior, however slightly.
Fighting 12 Tuk'ata also means you fight a maximum of 2-3 at a time, given their size and how easy they are to manipulate on the battlefield. They don't work in unison, they physically can't. Magnaguards are designed to, her feat is miles better.
I'm also not understanding why you're using feats from Kas'im's superior, in an attempt to show Kas'im could replicate them despite losing to the individual who performed them?
It is a fair point that Kas’im only blocked the focal point of the wave, rather than the entire thing, but even the portion Kas’im blocked was incredibly powerful, as evidenced by it containing enough power to shatter every bone in Kas’im’s body and liquidate his flesh.In any case, waves with less power have actually broken telekinetic barriers. Savage Opress’s force wave on Dooku’s ship threw back Anakin and Obi-Wan, though some of the droids also caught in the wave were able to get back up afterwards, and on Oba Diah, Count Dooku’s force wave shoved Anakin and Obi-wan back a few feet, though the vast majority of the Pykes hit by the very same wave managed to get back on their feet seconds later with no sign of injury.
So no, I don’t view the feat of blocking a telekinetic blast with enough power to shatter every bone in a person’s body and literally liquidate their flesh to be not that impressive. On the contrary, given that notable force users have been overcome by telekinetic blasts of less power than that, I believe Kas’im’s force barrier showing to be pretty damn impressive all things considered.
Shattering bones and liquidating flesh are pretty ****ing standard for Force Users. Darth Nyriss' lightning had the power to turn individuals to ash, Sidious' lightning does the same even if people put up Force Barriers. Galen Marek's lightning brought down AT-ST's, and yet Shaak Ti was deflecting it casually...
Savage also cannot be compared to Bane, as he attacked individuals who didn't put up a barrier, and if they did, that literally already puts Savage's feat above Bane's. He was quite obviously not trying to destroy the bridge he was standing on, and kill himself, now was he?
Kas’im is no stranger to recognizing manipulation. He recognized Qordis’s manipulations as well as Qordis’s failures at manipulation that he tried to cover up with manipulation through subtle details. As a Sith Master, seeing manipulation amongst the Sith masters is something he’s probably quite accustomed to, so I don’t think he’d be blind to it in a lightsaber duel, his area of passion and expertise. Likewise, on neutral terrain I’m not sure how much Ti can really do to manipulate him. Feigning weakness or a level below one’s actual capabilities is a tactic Kas’im is quite familiar with, through his own application of it and seeing others apply it. Feigning or trying to trick him into overextending or leaving an opening or something isn’t likely to work either, given the time Kas’im has spent perfecting all of his moves, his view that there should be no margin for error in a lightsaber duel, and the fact that he avoids leaving openings. Possessing two lightsaber blades also provides him with greater coverage in this regard.
Neutral terrain does not mean barren, simply neutral. There will be areas of their battlefield that she can manipulate him with, and suggesting that seeing the schemes of Sith, and the manipulations in a duel are the same thing, is ridiculous.
Your entire argument is based off supposition, you have no evidence to prove any of this. Obi-Wan Kenobi dueled Jedi hundreds of times, dueled Anakin Skywalker (one of the most cunning Jedi alive) for thousands of hours, and was still taught tricks by Shaak Ti. Experience isn't a counter for ingenuity, that's why it's called ingenuity.
And I maintain that Kas’im is Shaak Ti’s superior as a duelist. I believe that while Shaak Ti can put up a great fight with her own immense skills, well thought out fighting style and well as her offensive force abilities, Kas’im is capable of overcoming her in lightsaber combat and persevering through her force attacks with his defensive application of the Force.
But you've still yet to prove how? You suggest the singular advantage of Kas'im's skill advantage (That I do not agree with, for the record) is that he can use forms to counter her forms... yet there isn't a single form that does this. You concede that she is stronger than him, but that this is somehow irrelevant. You concede that she is probably slightly faster than him, but this is also irrelevant. You concede that she has stronger Force showings, greater barriers and greater offensive showings... but that this is also irrelevant.
Any one of these advantages could be overlooked, perhaps, but all of them in a single duel? I cannot see how having acknowledged all of the above, how you can still declare Kas'im the victor. Enough with the supposition and hyperbole, prove it 😬
I have to commend you Sel, I actually respect Shaak Ti more after reading and replying to your post, as well as after reading your respect thread, and I’m giving serious consideration to making a Shaak Ti Fighting Style Post. If you know of any sources other than OCW and TFU that showcase Shaak Ti’s fighting style, could you please give me a heads up?
All in all, I've got to say the same. I've never really given Kas'im any mind, but you've proven he's actually a decent combatant.
Still can't beat Shaak, though 😉
PS: If you're still looking to make that post, let me know.