Darth Malak vs Karness Muur

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
> Lists reasonable evidence suggesting Malak might be able to use drain in combat to a degree where suggesting it is out of the equation is pretty stupid.
> Ignores reasonable evidence suggesting Malak might be able to use drain in combat to a degree where suggesting it is out of the equation is pretty stupid.
> Continues to believe Malak cannot use drain in combat and that suggesting he can is out of the equation - yet saw examples that suggests he indeed can.

The fact there is evidence at all makes your "hasn't [b]ever" point mute.

Unless you have something else worthwhile to add to this discussion, I think we are done here in regards to where this debate ended up. [/B]

lol

So this sums up your Drain argument:

1. Malak knows Drain - Good for him. Bane did too - he still found it nearly impossible to use the power in combat. And I doubt you'd argue that Malak's knowledge and mastery of the Force transcends Bane's. Knowing Drain =/= being able to use it on a whim in combat.

2. Game mechanics - Non-canonical, and if you want it that way, the Exile can use Crush and Choke on Traya in the Trayus Core and even against Nihilus on the Ravager - and win purely because of that.

3. Malak used Drain on the Jedi captives - Oh, please. On a potent nexus and with the Jedi being utterly incapable of resisting in the slightest - not to mention they were in machines that, by Malak's own admission, were already transferring those energies to him. That's totally inapplicable to this circumstance.

Malak doesn't enjoy the benefits of a nexus here (which, if he's anything like Bane, would be a pre-requisite in order for him to effectively use the power in combat), and he's not up against some helpless fodder Jedi in machines that make it easy for Malak to siphon their life force - he's up against an ancient Sith Lord who knows the technique himself and has demonstrable proof of using it on a whim in combat, without requiring favorable circumstances (if anything, the circumstances were against him).

mmm You just conceded to me the entire point I was arguing.

No, I didn't. I was making it clear that whilst Malak knows Drain, like Bane, he isn't capable of just using it on a whim under normal circumstances, and nothing implies such. Muur, on the other hand, has already shown he can use it on a whim under neutral (or negative) circumstances. Thus, he's the one that you'd argue using Drain in this debate.

Good cop-out and attempt to save face, though.

Originally posted by SunRazer
he isn't capable of just using it on a whim under normal circumstances

Issue is, that wasn't what you were debating.

You resorted to that to prove your mute point.

And in thus, came an automatic concession.

My stance has always been that Malak can't just use it in combat. That was the whole basis for this debate. The point about him never demonstrably using it in combat before was my way of expressing that. Regardless, I don't have to prove a negative - it's up to you to show that Malak has ever demonstrated the power in combat in normal circumstances. That's what I was saying. If you can do that, I'll admit he can use Drain in this fight too.

Oh, and even regarding the debate about whether or not Malak has used it in combat before, my post above is still not a concession to it, lol. It's very clear all these "concession" arguments you make are attempts to save face.

Besides, you were actually arguing that Malak could use Drain in combat. So, as you like to say... "concession accepted".

No, your argument was that his drain "hasn't ever been used in combat before."

Your argument wasn't that he "can't just use it in combat."

You changed arguments. In such comes with a concession since you admit Malak can given circumstances.

Circumstances / environment advantages or not, he still has used it in combat. Your point is mute. 👆
---
You have since made new points, but I don't really have interest in them.

I have greater enjoyment playing this little game then trying to get a point across with... someone like you.

Move along, move along.

He still hasn't ever used it in combat before.

And as I said, if you knew my stance on Malak, you'd realize I always supported the notion of him not being able to use it in combat.

This is my central point:

"It's safe to say that Malak is similar to Bane and finds it virtually impossible to employ Drain in combat."

Which hasn't been refuted. You're dancing around semantics to try and save face, but you're ignoring the greater picture and the point that is ultimately more relevant to this debate.

EDIT: Obviously I was referring to neutral ground in that comment, because there's no point bringing up nexus/favorable showings in a neutral fight. And just for the sake of clarity, by "in combat", I don't mean using it while fighting, but rather using it against somebody you're fighting, not some helpless fodder.

I wasn't debating your central point then, I was debating another point. That was made clear a while ago. Keep with the show.

@ EDIT: You obviously weren't. Otherwise you would have said "excluding them," or removed "ever" - which would apply to nexus fights.

1. Then it's irrelevant to the debate at hand.

2. This isn't a nexus fight, so there's no reason for me to refer to nexus showings. By default, I'm always referring to neutral circumstances, lol.

That feat is so utterly inapplicable to normal fights that it doesn't even need to be mentioned or specified that I'm not referring to it.

It's remarkably petty that you're dancing around on these semantics in an attempt to pursue a trivial victory instead of debating the topic at hand, all the while trying to save face. Not worth my time.

1.) Since when did I say it was?

2 and beyond.) Already addressed.

We are done here.

1. You didn't. I didn't say you said anything - all I'm saying is that it's completely irrelevant to the thread and thus not worth being discussed any further other than to be pursued for your trivial victory list.

2. Indeed. We're done.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. No, the point is that Ajunta Pall probably wouldn't possess the same degree of power in the Force/influence with it. Most Sith spirits lack the same degree of power they had in life.

I'm aware

What bearing does it hold on him measuring the power of another person, being able to recall how powerful he felt in life, being able to feel the densest concentration of energy he left behind in his tomb a la Nadd, etc?

2. Well, the others were technically his Shadow Hands, which would suggest Pall's greater strength in the Force. I can concede that,

That's fair then.

but then, Ajunta Pall sensing Revan's power as "blinding" doesn't mean it's a direct comparison to his own power.

How so? If there was parity between Pall and Revan's power, what about Revan would Pall find blinding that he'd otherwise see gauging himself/his followers?

Plagueis was astonished by Maul's speed and skill, too.

This point would hold merit if Plagueis was speaking in terms of Maul's power in the Force.

3. Actually, it's more that when character X senses the raw power of character Y, it can easily be them sensing their potential. When it came to Plagueis sensing an untrained Palpatine's power, or various beings sensing a young Anakin's power, or even Palpatine recognizing Maul's power - it's obvious that it wouldn't be overwhelming if it was just them as kids. The way I see it, your "potential" is just your natural power, but it's unlocked over time as your mastery of the Force increases through training and whatever other means allow you to influence the Force better.

I mean, I get why you think that, but I don't really see that as the full picture

Though that may just be an incomplete understanding of shit

So, correct me if I'm wrong/missing something

KOTOR in general seems written in a way that supports Revan and Malak's connections just continuing to grow

I mean you've got Darth Revan already having mastery over his power which I'd interpret as "he's able to chuck his energy into whatever the hell he wants and it'll have comparable effect/energy". The council worries about Malak eventually surpassing Revan... who's already supposed to have mastered his power? Yet apparently not seeing as he fights nigh evenly with an amped Malak who's now much stronger than when the pair previously had a "desperate final battle" when he was still Darth Revan?

And that's just KOTOR. He splits his soul in half and it's one of, if not totally, his strongest incarnations?

Despite Darth Revan having already supposedly mastered his powers, which KOTOR Revan proceded to eclipse despite being light sided and lacking that generic evil power boost the Sith seem to get upon falling?

4. That's not really how I debate.

By this I meant I'd just whip out that Wizards of the Coast accolade that compares him to Nadd and Kun that I've failed to find any contradictory narrative evidence too. That's what I'd normally bother to draw on.

Do their feats match?

**** no, but I'd remind you I come from a style of debate that doesn't care about conservation of energy and generally uses accolades for powerscaling when they're not contradicted by the story.

Remember, if you've ever read Dragon Ball's manga, Yamcha has shit feats. His best is blowing up a 10 meter section of a concrete wall way back in the 22nd World Tournament.

By accolades/power level he's stronger than a ****er that vaporized a Mountain (Roshi), nuked a City (Piccolo Daimao), leveled an island (Piccolo Jr 23rd WT), blew up the moon (Piccolo Jr Saiyan Saga), and could potentially destroy earth (Goku Saiyan Saga)

Not saying you should commit to that school of thought, just explaining where the thoughts come from at all. *shrugs*

5. He hasn't ever shown Drain against an opponent, and he's only demonstrated it against helpless enemies under very favorable circumstances. I think it's fair to say that Malak is like Bane (I doubt he's more masterful in the Force than Bane is, too), and finds Drain nearly impossible to use in combat.

He's clearly able to use it in the middle combat... or Revan's just kind of a dumbass for letting him slip away to drain that Jedi at all.

I'll respond later.

No rush

You're on an internet forum discussing one of the most subjective forms of debate that can pretend to be objective

This is essentially just for shits and giggles, no one's rushing you dude :maybe

lol

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
What bearing does it hold on him measuring the power of another person, being able to recall how powerful he felt in life, being able to feel the densest concentration of energy he left behind in his tomb a la Nadd, etc?

It would suggest he wasn't in peak condition, and again, Sith spirits generally aren't as powerful as they were in life.

How so? If there was parity between Pall and Revan's power, what about Revan would Pall find blinding that he'd otherwise see gauging himself/his followers?

It just means Revan's power was very considerable, not that it necessarily superseded his own. Though the word "blinding" would suggest that.

This point would hold merit if Plagueis was speaking in terms of Maul's power in the Force.

It's an example of astonishment regarding another character's ability. There's other examples - again, Sidious and Anakin are good examples. Even at a young age, their power was great and "blinding" to others - for instance, Sidious to Plagueis, but he was ultimately no match for Plagueis because his training and mastery in the Force was very limited in comparison.

I mean, I get why you think that, but I don't really see that as the full picture

Though that may just be an incomplete understanding of shit

So, correct me if I'm wrong/missing something

KOTOR in general seems written in a way that supports Revan and Malak's connections just continuing to grow

I mean you've got Darth Revan already having mastery over his power which I'd interpret as "he's able to chuck his energy into whatever the hell he wants and it'll have comparable effect/energy". The council worries about Malak eventually surpassing Revan... who's already supposed to have mastered his power? Yet apparently not seeing as he fights nigh evenly with an amped Malak who's now much stronger than when the pair previously had a "desperate final battle" when he was still Darth Revan?

And that's just KOTOR. He splits his soul in half and it's one of, if not totally, his strongest incarnations?

Despite Darth Revan having already supposedly mastered his powers, which KOTOR Revan proceded to eclipse despite being light sided and lacking that generic evil power boost the Sith seem to get upon falling?

I think KotOR's just written in a way to accommodate the RPG-like gameplay of leveling up. It doesn't set Revan apart from the examples I listed - he's a prodigy like Anakin and Sidious, only to a lesser extent. And it just so happens virtually every time in history, when a character senses another's power and is surprised, it's about sensing their potential.

By this I meant I'd just whip out that Wizards of the Coast accolade that compares him to Nadd and Kun that I've failed to find any contradictory narrative evidence too. That's what I'd normally bother to draw on.

Accolades are one of the few reliable sources of direct comparison between characters, so I'm all for using them, but I'd just prefer not to go overboard with them.

And Wizards of the Coast has a history of making absolutely stupid remarks, so I place virtually zero credibility in it when it comes to WotC comparing the power levels of various characters.

He's clearly able to use it in the middle combat... or Revan's just kind of a dumbass for letting him slip away to drain that Jedi at all.

As I said:

"And just for the sake of clarity, by "in combat", I don't mean using it while fighting, but rather using it against somebody you're fighting, not some helpless fodder."

Sorry for any misconceptions, though.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It would suggest he wasn't in peak condition, and again, Sith spirits generally aren't as powerful as they were in life.

Maybe I'm not following because I just tend to stray to thinking about other series where sensing ki/magic/etc is common place, but why does he need to be at peak condition to feel Revan's power and compare it to his own/feel his own persisting in the tomb or remember what his was like for said comparison?

It just means Revan's power was very considerable, not that it necessarily superseded his own. Though the word "blinding" would suggest that.

So... we agreeing or disagreeing here?

You sort of seem to be just weighing pros and cons :hmm

It's an example of astonishment regarding another character's ability.

I know

I was just noting the context isn't exactly similar so you'd probably want to bring up a cogent example.

There's other examples - again, Sidious and Anakin are good examples. Even at a young age, their power was great and "blinding" to others - for instance, Sidious to Plagueis, but he was ultimately no match for Plagueis because his training and mastery in the Force was very limited in comparison.

Those are better, but I'm still not of the mind that Force power isn't just a fixed power you learn to use better as you train.

Are some ****ers born with more? That's obvious

Are they limited to that reserve?

Not what I'd conclude with every bit of canon available.

Plenty of other series out there with Star Wars set up and all

I think KotOR's just written in a way to accommodate the RPG-like gameplay of leveling up.

Could be, but that's kind of edging towards things akin to authorial intent

Not my kind of thing to discuss, but I get why different forums do even if I find it too subjective even for this stupid hobby. :lmao

It doesn't set Revan apart from the examples I listed - he's a prodigy like Anakin and Sidious, only to a lesser extent. And it just so happens virtually every time in history, when a character senses another's power and is surprised, it's about sensing their potential.

Suppose on this point we're going to end up agreeing to disagree :hmm

I see where you're coming from, but if it requires speculation on how the story was molded for a given part of canon to fit your position, I'm not exactly sold on the entire foundation.

Accolades are one of the few reliable sources of direct comparison between characters, so I'm all for using them, but I'd just prefer not to go overboard with them.

Depends on what you call overboard I guess.

And Wizards of the Coast has a history of making absolutely stupid remarks, so I place virtually zero credibility in it when it comes to WotC comparing the power levels of various characters.

Only Accolades I'm aware of are the Bastila Shan and Malak one's tbh

Neither of which generally contradict how I'm accommodated to evaluating the verse

Suppose the Shan one is more dicey with you depending on how a given group compares Mace and Dooku, but eh.

Granted, I imagine what Wizards was doing there was more a nod to Lucas' commentary in RotS, but as I've said, not really one to guess at authorial intent.

I'm aware of this stance though, which is why I didn't bother bringing the accolade up here.

Though I'd argue taking a case by case basis with any source is how you should tackle something as opposed to just writing them all off. *shrugs*

As I said:

"And just for the sake of clarity, by "in combat", I don't mean using it while fighting, but rather using it against somebody you're fighting, not some helpless fodder."

Sorry for any misconceptions, though.

Ah, that's fair

Wasn't really hedging anything in this thread on Malak using Drain anyway

It's really not too much different mechanically from any generic JRPG Drain magic in function tbh

WoC evidently claimed Malak was far stronger than Exar Kun.
I wouldn't trust them.

http://www.comicvine.com/darth-malak/4005-47892/forums/darth-malak-respect-thread-1549693/

Not that wild of a claim, tbh.

They have a lot worse though.

Originally posted by Kosmos Supreme
WoC evidently claimed Malak was far stronger than Exar Kun.
I wouldn't trust them.

Funnily enough?

Sans argument from belief (fallacy), nothing really contradicts it as an accolade

Or Yamcha in Dragon Ball's only wall level

Different series, same principle on accolades

Compliments the admittedly wide tier of "most powerful Sith Lords" they listed between Revan, Caedus, and Sidious