Spirit Bomb might work if powerful enough. Depending of course on if Beerus had a pure heart or not.
But I know what you are doing here. The answer is no, Cell's Solar System busting Kamehameha would not kill Beerus. Wouldn't even scratch him if he were prepared for it. But DBZ has WAY different stats regarding ki based attacks and physical attacks
Originally posted by juggerman
Spirit Bomb might work if powerful enough. Depending of course on if Beerus had a pure heart or not.But I know what you are doing here. The answer is no, Cell's Solar System busting Kamehameha would not kill Beerus. Wouldn't even scratch him if he were prepared for it. But DBZ has WAY different stats regarding ki based attacks and physical attacks
😂 😂
Can Cell do a spirit bomb?
Also, conventional attacks doesn't seem to threaten Z fighters in any kind of way. Ki attacks are more powerful. Remember, Raditz said as a child, Goku should've been able to take over Earth and they were possessing Nukes and high caliber weapons during that time.
Let's also not forget Frieza dad words about a planets explosion. He didn't stress at all about it and basically called it petty. Ki attacks are greater than conventional attacks...this is well known...so disguising it as 'well, it's just a Ki attack' doesn't mean much when discussing it here because a casual blast from a Z fighter that wouldn't level a room>>>>any Nuke a human can muster in the DBZ verse.
Originally posted by carver9
😂 😂Can Cell do a spirit bomb?
Cell claimed he could and we have no real reason to assume he was lying
Originally posted by carver9
Also, conventional attacks doesn't seem to threaten Z fighters in any kind of way. Ki attacks are more powerful. Remember, Raditz said as a child, Goku should've been able to take over Earth and they were possessing Nukes and high caliber weapons during that time.
Not true at all. Goku defeated Piccolo with a flying headbutt.
Goku defeated Nappa with his fists hitting Nappa's back and crippling him.
Goku brought Recoome down with an elbow.
Final Form Frieza beat vegeta near to death with physical attacks.
Gohan killed all the Cell Jrs. with simple punches and kicks.
I can go on and on. But none of those physical attacks packed anywhere near as much power as their ki attacks. In fact the strongest punch we see in DB is SSJ3 Goku punching thru King Kai's planet which is smaller than a skyscraper.
Originally posted by carver9
Let's also not forget Frieza dad words about a planets explosion. He didn't stress at all about it and basically called it petty. Ki attacks are greater than conventional attacks...this is well known...so disguising it as 'well, it's just a Ki attack' doesn't mean much when discussing it here because a casual blast from a Z fighter that wouldn't level a room>>>>any Nuke a human can muster in the DBZ verse.
You can't really use Frieza to determine feats for Saiyans. Hell you can't use Cell or Buu either since they all are far and away from the normal in that universe. Frieza was cut in half and was still alive and able to function. Hell now with the new movie we know he can survive being cut into tiny pieces. He was only killed by Trunks' blast. No "normal" being in DB has that kind of endurance.
Raditz was killed by having a hole blasted thru him.
Zarbon too.
Burter was killed by Vegeta crushing his neck
Again I can go on. The major villians in DBZ were only killed by destroying every single part of them. That's not the case with everyone so you pretending like it is is pretty faulty
Originally posted by juggerman
Cell claimed he could and we have no real reason to assume he was lyingNot true at all. Goku defeated Piccolo with a flying headbutt.
Goku defeated Nappa with his fists hitting Nappa's back and crippling him.
Goku brought Recoome down with an elbow.
Final Form Frieza beat vegeta near to death with physical attacks.
Gohan killed all the Cell Jrs. with simple punches and kicks.I can go on and on. But none of those physical attacks packed anywhere near as much power as their ki attacks. In fact the strongest punch we see in DB is SSJ3 Goku punching thru King Kai's planet which is smaller than a skyscraper.
You can't really use Frieza to determine feats for Saiyans. Hell you can't use Cell or Buu either since they all are far and away from the normal in that universe. Frieza was cut in half and was still alive and able to function. Hell now with the new movie we know he can survive being cut into tiny pieces. He was only killed by Trunks' blast. No "normal" being in DB has that kind of endurance.
Raditz was killed by having a hole blasted thru him.
Zarbon too.
Burter was killed by Vegeta crushing his neckAgain I can go on. The major villians in DBZ were only killed by destroying every single part of them. That's not the case with everyone so you pretending like it is is pretty faulty
When I say conventional attacks, I mean EARTH based attacks. Attacks outside of what DBZ characters are dishing out.
Agree about cell and the spirit bomb.
What in the world. Why can't I include Frieza. Frieza living through being cut in half doesn't mean he is more DURABLE than Goku. Frieza durability withstood a planets explosion, not his healing properties or whatever you want to call it. That's like me saying Lizard (Spiderman villain) is more durable than Colossus due to the Lizard being able to survive without organs or being lopped in half, etc... durability is an entirely different case here and Goku IS more durable than Frieza.
This was proven when Goku Finger endured something that chopped Frieza body to pieces.
You keep mixing healing abilities with durability. Sigh.
Originally posted by carver9
When I say conventional attacks, I mean EARTH based attacks. Attacks outside of what DBZ characters are dishing out.Agree about cell and the spirit bomb.
What in the world. Why can't I include Frieza. Frieza living through being cut in half doesn't mean he is more DURABLE than Goku. Frieza durability withstood a planets explosion, not his healing properties or whatever you want to call it. That's like me saying Lizard (Spiderman villain) is more durable than Colossus due to the Lizard being able to survive without organs or being lopped in half, etc... durability is an entirely different case here and Goku IS more durable than Frieza.
This was proven when Goku Finger endured something that chopped Frieza body to pieces.
You keep mixing healing abilities with durability. Sigh.
We never really see what the Earth military is really capable of. (Assuming this is what you mean, if not correct me). We don't know that they have nukes and if they do are their nukes like ours. We do know that the way most Saiyans take a planet is by transforming. That's their ace. Goku could have still been defeated and killed in between full moons. Also Raditz had no idea of the weapons Earth had. He made that statement based on the fighters on the planet iirc
Frieza couldn't just heal tho. The only healing he did was when he transformed. But my point is that just because Frieza can do something doesn't mean more powerful people can. But I get what you are saying now. But my point still stands about the punches and kicks. Goku was KO'd by a chop from Vegeta that was several orders weaker than a planets busting in a severely weakened Frieza's face. Or Vegeta getting his arm broken by a kick that was weaker than Namek popping.
Originally posted by juggerman
We never really see what the Earth military is really capable of. (Assuming this is what you mean, if not correct me). We don't know that they have nukes and if they do are their nukes like ours. We do know that the way most Saiyans take a planet is by transforming. That's their ace. Goku could have still been defeated and killed in between full moons. Also Raditz had no idea of the weapons Earth had. He made that statement based on the fighters on the planet iircFrieza couldn't just heal tho. The only healing he did was when he transformed. But my point is that just because Frieza can do something doesn't mean more powerful people can. But I get what you are saying now. But my point still stands about the punches and kicks. Goku was KO'd by a chop from Vegeta that was several orders weaker than a planets busting in a severely weakened Frieza's face. Or Vegeta getting his arm broken by a kick that was weaker than Namek popping.
Probably. Kid Goku did endure a lot...can't imagine a way of them defeating him, even during his mortal form.
Lol...of course peers could hurt peers. Pretty sure everyone Odin fought has not hit him with Galaxy shaking punches. Especially when he fought against someone that is his equal. When it all boils down though, DBZ character have high end durability, extremely high end and I'm talking about on average. I think you have a different mindset/judging factor when you compare DBZ characters vs American comics. It's written all over your post. Surfer, Superman, and other top tiers are not always being hit with planet exploding punches. Hell, I can't think of one instance when they are...but on AVERAGE, DBZ characters can handle that kind of power on a consistent bases better than a top tier can. When a top tier survives something like that, hell, when a top tier tank Nukes, it's a high showing but when DBZ withstand a full powered attack (example, Frieza tanking the 20 times Kamehameha), it's meh. We already know he can endure something like this. Imagine the hype on the form if someone like Thor or Superman outright tanked an attack that was planetary plus in power.
Originally posted by juggerman
It never failed in canon. Probably because it's a cutting move and not a blast
But it was only ever ONCE used on someone that was a lot stronger than the user, and it was base Goku using it on Buutenks. Buu's skin is easy to penetrate, as it was even pierced by Dabura throwing a spear through him. That's one of the things that made him so hard to fight. His ability to scoff at conventional, or really any, attacks, because of his massive regen capabilities. So that instance doesn't really count, since Bills relies on massive durability, not regeneration.
Anyway, the feats that Bills is getting now in DB Super are ridiculous. He was sleeping on his planet, and sneezed in his sleep, and destroyed two stars. Whiss went back in time to fix it. With that kind of power, even while sleeping, I can guarantee that his durability would have been able to overcome a simple Kienzan from SPC, probably even while sleeping.
It seems that you're forgetting the simple fact that pretty much every villain HAD kienzan. If it was able to kill their enemies that easily, they would have USED it. Especially Cell. He could have teleported behind Gohan, as the Kamehameha wave got close to him, and hit him with a kienzan like it was nothing. So kienzan must have been a bad idea against Gohan. For what reason, it's unsure, but probably because it simply wouldn't have had much effect on him, even at the level that Cell was at.
Idk, I think that it's silly to assume that kienzan can beat anyone's durability, just because the attack it is.
That would make other threads, like Goku vs Superman, completely one-sided. Because no matter how strong you say he is, kienzan could cut him in half.
Now that I made that comparison, do you see how ridiculous that sounds?
Originally posted by carver9
Probably. Kid Goku did endure a lot...can't figure a way of them defeating him, even during his mortal form.Lol...of course peers could hurt peers. Pretty sure everyone Odin fought has not hit him with Galaxy shaking punches. Especially when he fought against someone that is his equal. When it all boils down though, DBZ character have high end durability, extremely high end and I'm rolling about on average. I think you have a different mindset/judging factor when you compare DBZ characters vs American comics. It's written all over your post. Surfer, Superman, and other top tiers are not always being hit with planet exploding punches. Hell, I can't think of one instance when they are...but on AVERAGE, DBZ characters can handle that kind of power on a consistent bases better than a top tier can. When a top tier survives something like that, hell, when a top tier tank Nukes, it's a high showing but when DBZ withstand a full powered attack (example, Frieza tanking the 20 times Kamehameha), it's meh. We already know he can endure something like this. Imagine the hype on the form if someone like Thor or Superman outright tanked an attack that was planetary plus in power.
But the 20x Kamehameha can destroy a planet. Not one thing points to them being able to punch and kick with the same kind of power. In your example, we know for a fact Kal and Thor have physical strength through the roof going in. How do we know? Because they do crazy things like lifting snakes that are big enough to wrap around the world, or bench the weight of the Earth.
Goku on the other hand has no strength feats on that level but even worse, neither do his foes. If Frieza cracked a planet in half with a punch and then Goku took several of his punches, you'd have a point. They best we have is SSJ3 Goku's punch on Kai's planet which is not anywhere near High Herald. Don't get me wrong, they have super duper high power output, but not physical strength
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
But it was only ever ONCE used on someone that was a lot stronger than the user, and it was base Goku using it on Buutenks. Buu's skin is easy to penetrate, as it was even pierced by Dabura throwing a spear through him. That's one of the things that made him so hard to fight. His ability to scoff at conventional, or really any, attacks, because of his massive regen capabilities. So that instance doesn't really count, since Bills relies on massive durability, not regeneration.Anyway, the feats that Bills is getting now in DB Super are ridiculous. He was sleeping on his planet, and sneezed in his sleep, and destroyed two stars. Whiss went back in time to fix it. With that kind of power, even while sleeping, I can guarantee that his durability would have been able to overcome a simple Kienzan from SPC, probably even while sleeping.
It seems that you're forgetting the simple fact that pretty much every villain HAD kienzan. If it was able to kill their enemies that easily, they would have USED it. Especially Cell. He could have teleported behind Gohan, as the Kamehameha wave got close to him, and hit him with a kienzan like it was nothing. So kienzan must have been a bad idea against Gohan. For what reason, it's unsure, but probably because it simply wouldn't have had much effect on him, even at the level that Cell was at.
Idk, I think that it's silly to assume that kienzan can beat anyone's durability, just because the attack it is.
That would make other threads, like Goku vs Superman, completely one-sided. Because no matter how strong you say he is, kienzan could cut him in half.
Now that I made that comparison, do you see how ridiculous that sounds?
In this scenario Beerus is standing there and letting Cell attack him without trying to dodge. I'm not saying the Disc is the end all be all of techniques but it hits well out of it's weight class. The issue with using it in battle is that it seems very easy to dodge and hard to control unlike most other moves. So in the middle of a fight makes using it much harder than being given a free shot.
Originally posted by juggerman
But the 20x Kamehameha can destroy a planet. Not one thing points to them being able to punch and kick with the same kind of power. In your example, we know for a fact Kal and Thor have physical strength through the roof going in. How do we know? Because they do crazy things like lifting snakes that are big enough to wrap around the world, or bench the weight of the Earth.Goku on the other hand has no strength feats on that level but even worse, neither do his foes. If Frieza cracked a planet in half with a punch and then Goku took several of his punches, you'd have a point. They best we have is SSJ3 Goku's punch on Kai's planet which is not anywhere near High Herald. Don't get me wrong, they have super duper high power output, but not physical strength
Actually, you're wrong. How many times in the series have DBZ characters batted away, or lifted, or tanked, planet busting attacks? Or even galaxy busting ones, now that Bills is a universe buster?
Imo, it seems like swatting away a planet busting+ attack should prove that you have ridiculous Superman level+ strength, given that you need a force of 110 quadrillion megatons. Which is the equivalent in force of 110 sextillion tons. Meaning that the blast, before exploding, would physically weigh that much, and after exploding, would produce a blast of that much force.
And it's even higher for the solar system, galaxy, and apparently universe, busting attacks we've seen. And btw, universe level has only been seen a handful of times by Superman, and every time, the universe level character has been capable of one-shotting him.
And Thor has even less impressive feats than Superman, so he doesn't even belong here.
Originally posted by juggerman
But the 20x Kamehameha can destroy a planet. Not one thing points to them being able to punch and kick with the same kind of power. In your example, we know for a fact Kal and Thor have physical strength through the roof going in. How do we know? Because they do crazy things like lifting snakes that are big enough to wrap around the world, or bench the weight of the Earth.Goku on the other hand has no strength feats on that level but even worse, neither do his foes. If Frieza cracked a planet in half with a punch and then Goku took several of his punches, you'd have a point. They best we have is SSJ3 Goku's punch on Kai's planet which is not anywhere near High Herald. Don't get me wrong, they have super duper high power output, but not physical strength
They have the strength imo, they just never had a reason to display it. Neither Thor nor Superman broke a planet with their fist. We can't sit here and say they can 'outside of hyperbole'...that's if we are going the ft route you are going.
Also, lol, Thor used a freaking fishing pole and a boat in the snake showing. Come on man. You gotta do better than that. Thor has better showings.
Goku strength fts are him wrecking someone with high end durability. Question, would you be impressed if Hulk punched a hole in Odin and please explain why.
Originally posted by juggerman
In this scenario Beerus is standing there and letting Cell attack him without trying to dodge. I'm not saying the Disc is the end all be all of techniques but it hits well out of it's weight class. The issue with using it in battle is that it seems very easy to dodge and hard to control unlike most other moves. So in the middle of a fight makes using it much harder than being given a free shot.
Okay, I DO understand what you're saying here.
But the simple fact of the matter is that there is 100% nothing Cell can do against Bills EXCLUDING the possibility of kienzan. His best attack, the spirit bomb, when used against Frieza, did barely anything. The only reason it worked so well against Kid Buu, is because he was pure evil. Bills is not pure evil, and even if he was pure evil at heart, he isn't MADE of evil, like Kid Buu was.
And while just standing there, Bills, like every other DBZ character, is able to use all of his ki that he would normally use for fighting, to further increase his durability.
We wouldn't even be having this argument though, if Krillin wasn't such a ***** in BOTG's, and actually tried protecting his wife, who Bills just ktfo. Because it probably would have just bounced off of him.
And btw, the special beam cannon thing was proven against too, when Buutenks used it against Mystic Gohan, and he blocked it. Or was that filler as well? I can't recall.