Captain America vs Superman

In that first scan, last panel, states that Superman doesn't even want to fight WW, implying that he is holding back.

Originally posted by Star428
Yeah, he always does and I"m done taking his troll bait on this subject. Again, Superman wasn't thinking clearly when he said that. As for GL saying that, it doesn't mean much when Superman holds back far more than any other character in comics. Doubt he knows what Clark is really capable of when he lets loose. WHat we do know is that WW herself said she couldn't beat him. She had to sucker shothim JUST TO SLOW HIM DOWN and yet she didn't really even accomplish that. The true power-levels between those two characters is not comparable, by any means, and this has been shown over and over and over and over and over and over and over AGAIN. Only people who think otherwise are those who view the very few number of fights where WW had an advantage or got a "technical win" out-of-context.

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Originally posted by The Nuul
In that first scan, last panel, states that Superman doesn't even want to fight WW, implying that he is holding back.

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Lol...really Nuul. Really? So him not wanting to fight her means that his statement is incorrect? I'm done replying to you about this because you're not thinking right.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I was on topic. I said "Superman wins and there is nothing caps can do if superman decides to take the ring"

One line of your post being on topic doesn't excuse what was written before it.

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I'm only gonna say this one time:

Blue, Rao and Star, stop bashing.

Carver, quit lowballing.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol...really Nuul. Really? So him not wanting to fight her means that his statement is incorrect? I'm done replying to you about this because you're not thinking right.

The house of El invites you to read and debate this topic in here:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f48/t615889.html

Originally posted by -Pr-
One line of your post being on topic doesn't excuse what was written before it.

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I'm only gonna say this one time:

Blue, Rao and Star, stop bashing.

Carver, quit lowballing.

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Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
You people must be completely ignorant as to the character and the character of Captain America. There is a reason Superman deferred leadership to him and why Cap wasn't the least bit scared to fight him. Hell, Superman has his hands full with weak as Batman. Cap would give him one chance to stand down before he commenced to whoopin that boys ass.

That's a really, REALLY stupid argument, and I'm sure you don't actually know the context of any Superman/Batman fights you'd show in an attempt to back your claim.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet

This is one of the greatest examples of double standards lately. 😆 I'll get to it later.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wait.

So an unamped Cap (i.e. a normal Cap) takes out King Thor - and that is not PIS.

Supergirl, a Kryptonian (so a species known for their speed) steals a ring from Stewart (a human, with human level reactions) and....that's PIS?

OK.

IIRC, Cap was indeed amped, by magick. Not only that, but Balder had Thor's infant son hostage with a knife to the child's throat, so Thor couldn't fight back, had to just stand there. If someone can provide the issue reference I'll get the scans.

And on top of that, as far as I know, Marvel officially designated this as an alternate universe. Far different from the example BAV and others tried to dismiss for Superman because it was an ALTERED(not alternate) timeline, that was fixed, and not to my knowledge designated as an alternate universe, for Superman.

But if BAV is going to pimp that example then he shall have to accept Superman doing this.

Superman one-shot killed Uncle Sam with a GL Power Ring. I'm not sure what Uncle Sam's norm is, but he did ok against Black Adam and Cheetah simultaneously in a brief fight(before Sinestro BFRed him), taking both their attacks pretty well and knocking away Adam. That would make me think Sam is quite a bit above Cap physically, and Superman one-shot killed him despite the auto-shields of the Power Ring(wasn't an insta kill, but Uncle Sam did die).

Originally posted by carver9
The Supergirl look alike where she takes John ring was a nice scan, too bad that scan doesn't apply to Cap since John speed is boo boo in comparison to someone like Cap. How fast was Supergirl going there?

Originally posted by carver9
Lol...nope, not what I am going to say. Cap speed is boo boo compared to Supes but this all depends on how Supes approach the fight. Also, with the ring, if Cap has any kind of common sense, he can increase his physical stats along with his speed. That's IF he is smart at all and taking everything he's done into consideration, the guy is pretty smart. Both have basic knowledge of each other...Cap is well aware of Superman's speed and I'm pretty sure he will prepare himself for a blitz.

Cap still lose this 10/10 but Superman isn't taking his ring.

Originally posted by carver9
Which is the reason I gave Superman the win. I'm not saying he will lose, what I am saying is, Superman isn't taking Cap's ring, at all. I'm pretty sure he will conjure his shields during the onset of the battle.

Your argument is stupid. Superman is taking that Power Ring if he wants.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
He didn't take out King Thor, King Thor blew his skin off his bones with a blast, no PIS involved. I was illustrating his fighting prowess against a near skyfather level opponent.

And will you stop talking about reactions with the GLs losing their rings? They lost them due to PIS: Plot Induced Stupidity. Why the hell would they allow that to happen? If is was this easy, the GLs would be completely worthless against heralds.

Prove it's PIS. Burden of proof is on you. We have two examples of them simply not being fast enough to someone who can move faster than they can see.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Unless Cap one shots the shit outta him. That shield would **** Kal's bloated head up.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
LOL, okay. But it ain't PIS, right? 🙄 So why don't villains with super speed do this all the time? An auto shield should be instantaneous or else it would be useless. Maybe GLs are useless in your book.

So why exactly is it "PIS?" Do you have multiple examples to counter this, or is it you only know a little about GLs and someone else made the argument that Cap can use the Power Ring to boost his speed, and you want it to be true both because you hate Superman/dickride Marvel, and again leech off the arguments of others? The examples Deadline showed weren't exactly speed being boosted.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
That's not my understanding of how the ring works. As far as the example of SG stealing the ring, that's one instance. The Batman showing is unrelated, he stole it while Hal wasn't paying attention and said such on panel. One instance is not a trend. So while it's a fact that it happened, it's not a fact that stealing a GL ring is a common practice among DC heralds.

Supergirl and Flash(although it was Mr. Element in the driver's seat) have been shown. Your argument against the Batman example actually backfires on you. Hal couldn't stop it because he wasn't aware. Superman can move too fast for Cap to be aware of what he's doing. Unless you can provide proof that the Power Ring boosts reaction time/time perceptions?

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
I think it's funny that people argued vigorously for GL against Blue Marvel by citing feat after feat. Now the GL and the Superset character are from the opposite universes and not ONE of the DC fan posters who fought tooth and nail in favor of GL then are even saying a positive word about Cap GL now. Then aren't even considering his capabilities. What an incredible coincidence.

I don't recall that debate(either didn't see it, or it just wasn't memorable), but One: You're just whining. Two: Maybe, just maybe, it has something to do with Superman's performances against GLs and other Lanterns? Oh, but this would mean Superman>Blue Marvel which you will go into a meltdown over.

Originally posted by carver9
Sigh...dude, give up. Those were Superman own words. Those were Lantern own words. I can do better though.

Those weren't Superman's own words. For once you didn't just look at the pretty pictures and STILL you get it wrong? Didn't read the storyline?

Superman being mind controlled, that isn't evidence that he made an inaccurate statement regarding how his power compares to WW. It's also not evidence that he wasn't thinking "clearly."

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Superman being mind controlled, that isn't evidence that he made an inaccurate statement regarding how his power compares to WW. It's also not evidence that he wasn't thinking "clearly."

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Superman being mind controlled, that isn't evidence that he made an inaccurate statement regarding how his power compares to WW. It's also not evidence that he wasn't thinking "clearly."

So, if someone has you under mind control and makes you say that you are as strong as a 2 year old. Will that be an accurate statement?

Yes or no?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I have proof that Cap is slower than Superman.

When a GL is too slow to react, their auto shields kick in. I have proof of that.

I then have proof that Kryptonians are either faster than these shields , or they just are too strong and smash them.

So...no, not rhetorical.

Cap is faster than John, Hal, etc. No question. But his reactions are not faster than Supes.

His willpower may well be stronger. But willpower means diddly when the autoshields kick in, as they are dependent on the ring not the user.

I also showed proof that they dont't always need auto shields. BAV you're not helping, sorry.

Originally posted by Deadline
I also showed proof that they dont't always need auto shields. BAV you're not helping, sorry.

And what proof did you show?

The feat were John attacked Superman and had the same attack speed as the Flash. Hal grabbing Zoom, Kyle grabbing Flash.

Originally posted by Deadline
The feat were John attacked Superman and had the same attack speed as the Flash. Hal grabbing Zoom, Kyle grabbing Flash.

You mean what the Power Ring did and not his own reaction time/time perception? Or, if you're convinced that the Power Ring actually makes them that fast instead of the Power Ring doing the work itself, where was that here?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Oh, OK.

The scan you posted showed a bloodlusted John taking advantage of Superman, and attempting to attack him.

Now, do you know what is happening here?

That's a slower Kryptonian, taking John's (the guy who's training Cap here) ring.

Can you tell me what's happening here?

My take on it is that even though Cap > John in reactions, Superman > Supergirl.

I reckon Superman has a new piece of jewelry.

Or here?

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Also lets say for the sake of the argument that Superman is only 1% as fast as the Flash which is not.

You're assuming that the Power Ring is actually making THEM fast instead of doing the work. Burden of proof falls on you. Superman, Dark Kara and Flash(with the mind of Mr. Element) have all gone too fast for a GL to react.

Originally posted by Delta1938
You mean what the Power Ring did and not his own reaction time/time perception? Or, if you're convinced that the Power Ring actually makes them that fast instead of the Power Ring doing the work itself, where was that here?

Or here?

You're assuming that the Power Ring is actually making THEM fast instead of doing the work. Burden of proof falls on you. Superman, Dark Kara and Flash(with the mind of Mr. Element) have all gone too fast for a GL to react.

No actually you need to prove it. Sometimes the ring does it sometimes GLs will it to happen unless it's specifically stated we can assume that the GL willed it.

Yea I can make that assumption because in The John and Flash example it couldn't have been an auto command because he wouldn't have been able to match Flashes speed, because by the time he would have commanded the ring The Flash would have been long gone.

I'm not ignoring those feats but they don't neccesarily prove anything. You have showings that indicate that GLs can react to fast characters and sometimes you don't. I've seen scans of Superman having problems with street levelers, doesn't mean its going to happen all the time.

By the John was trying to talk to Supergirl it looks like and wasn't expecting her to attack him, so that doesn't count.

Originally posted by Deadline
No actually you need to prove it. Sometimes the ring does it sometimes GLs will it to happen unless it's specifically stated we can assume that the GL willed it.

Yea I can make that assumption because in The John and Flash example it couldn't have been an auto command because he wouldn't have been able to match Flashes speed, because by the time he would have commanded the ring The Flash would have been long gone.

I'm not ignoring those feats but they don't neccesarily prove anything. You have showings that indicate that GLs can react to fast characters and sometimes you don't. I've seen scans of Superman having problems with street levelers, doesn't mean its going to happen all the time.

By the John was trying to talk to Supergirl it looks like and wasn't expecting her to attack him, so that doesn't count.

Tell me again what examples actually say that the Power Rings increase their reaction time/time perceptions instead of you assuming?

Originally posted by Delta1938
Tell me again what examples actually say that the Power Rings increase their reaction time/time perceptions instead of you assuming?

No you don't get it. Unless it's stated you can't assume that the ring did it for them, otherwise you could assume every single example is The ring doing it. As I explained in the John and Flash example it couldn't have been an auto command.

Plus theres no reason to think that Gls can't do that when they can do 100s of other things.

Originally posted by Deadline
No you don't get it. Unless it's stated you can't assume that the ring did it for them, otherwise you could assume every single example is The ring doing it. As I explained in the John and Flash example it couldn't have been an auto command.

Ya know, maybe you should take another look at the scan that has been the crux of your argument that Cap's speed will keep up.

It says Superman goes for Wally next, that it's WHAT THEY'D EXPECT. And Wally gets out of the way fine, as John's field comes up from behind Superman. Then it says John is faster on the draw. And then we see that Superman is setting things up.

Your entire argument has been a circular one that John out-reacted Superman, yet Wally is reacting defensively, since, ya know, Superman is coming after him, and John is firing from behind. Tell me again what proves that John out-reacted Wally?

Originally posted by Deadline
Plus theres no reason to think that Gls can't do that when they can do 100s of other things.

So for all intents and purposes, you're arguing the No Limits Fallacy? If the Power Ring can do what you're trying to argue, then post a scan that definitively proves it. Not your interpretation. Why are you trying to say the burden of proof lies on me when you've asserted without definitive proof that Cap will be fast enough, when better evidence contradicting your claim has been given? More examples than you've shown, actually(unless you disregard Sinestro).

No, the burden of proof lies on you.

Originally posted by Delta1938

Your entire argument has been a circular one that John out-reacted Superman,

You're wasting my time. That's not what I said ever, in fact I've explicitly said that's NOT what I was saying.

Originally posted by Deadline
You're wasting my time. That's not what I said ever, in fact I've explicitly said that's NOT what I was saying.

So, no examples that their reaction time/time perception actually gets boosted?

https://i.imgur.com/nGUyGXv.png
http://i.imgur.com/18kYgQ1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/mq7W79N.jpg