Vitiate/Kun/Malak v. Sidious/Krayt/Maul

He incapacitated him in stasis if that is what you mean

EDIT: Or are you talking about his presence feat?

Maul has humiliated Kenobi on multiple instances

took out small armies

and has proven himself to be very capable with TK.

but to suggest that Malak is far superior to Maul is ridiculous.

Malak lost to Revan twice

I'm mainly referencing his duel against Darth Revan where he pushed the Dark Lord into desperation.

I would put that incarnation above Revan above Maul or Kenobi. You wouldn't? 😬

and mentioning Bastila when comparing someone to Maul is an insult.

Bastila Shan is one of the most powerful Jedi of her age with incredible telepathy and healing Force powers, and is also a high-end master of her lightsaber form according to KotORCG. Some sources even place her directly on tier with the likes of Obi-Wan Kenobi himself. She's not one of the best duelists in the mythos, but given the nature of how easily Malak bested her, it's enormously impressive. 👆

Darth Malak beat her in like twenty seconds. 😐

Bastilla in that same source was even said to be in the same tier as Count Dooku of all people. Not saying she;s on par with him or that Malak can beat someone on Dooku's caliber in the same amount of time, but that's something to think about.

Team 1 in a good fight.

@TheMerchant - That same source suggested that Malak's cybernetics might have made him far more powerful than Nadd and Kun, which is beyond laughable. Instant loss of credibility.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

Yeah, overcoming and incapacitating a Force-user through the Force is defined as one-shot. He did it with a gesture too.

LMFAO WHAT? Telekinesis is not combat applicable?

EDIT: Or are you talking about his presence feat?

I don't recall any instances where he "humiliated" him besides the time Kenobi was extremely injured and barely could stand.
Maul has used the Force on him mid-fight when Kenobi had two blades, sure, but if anything it only further aided Kenobi's victory.

With the aid of a figure who is TKing Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi combined.

... and Malak hasn't?

Darth Maul has used TK to gain advantage in combat on multiple occasions against both Kenobi and others, not just when he caught Kenobi before he killed Satine if that is what you are referring to.

Savage is not as powerful as Maul unless he is enraged and even if he were enraged there, taking out half the army they took care of is still more impressive than anything Malak has done in combat and therefor trying to lowball the feat cause of Savage is illogical.

I think only Nai thinks he is "far superior." And even then, it's not as ridiculous as you make it out.

And gave him a brutal battle both fights. 👆

Just look at Savage Oppress' feats as even they outshine Malak's yet look how easily Maul disarms Savage in close combat. Imagine what he could do to Malak once the gap is closed.

I'm mainly referencing his duel against Darth Revan where he pushed the Dark Lord into desperation.

I would put that incarnation above Revan above Maul or Kenobi. You wouldn't? 😬

Definitely not in sabers.

Maul has been challenged by Pre Viszla. 😐

Bastila Shan is one of the most powerful Jedi of her age with incredible telepathy and healing Force powers, and is also a high-end master of her lightsaber form according to KotORCG. Some sources even place her directly on tier with the likes of Obi-Wan Kenobi himself. She's not one of the best duelists in the mythos, but given the nature of how easily Malak bested her, it's enormously impressive. 👆

Darth Malak beat her in like twenty seconds. 😐

Various explanations can be made for the Pre Viszla vs Maul fight. Are you seriously gonna use that to try to lowball Maul? 😘

Disarming Savage in 2 seconds is a lot more impressive.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm mainly referencing his duel against Darth Revan where he pushed the Dark Lord into desperation.

Just because the fight was described as desperate doesn't mean Revan was desperate. When used in this context, the term merely suggests extreme intensity or passion.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@TheMerchant - That same source suggested that Malak's cybernetics might have made him far more powerful than Nadd and Kun, which is beyond laughable. Instant loss of credibility.

👆

Also, anybody who actually believes Bastila's on the same tier as Dooku in combat has some serious issues in determining and comparing feats, or some severe bias. Sure, quotes are one thing, but a brain is also necessary to decipher information, otherwise we could be settling for Dooku is more powerful than Sidious. Some things just aren't logical in the slightest - and the WotC quote is one of those things. Malak being "far superior" to Maul not being ridiculous is another.

To be fair, Malak is more powerful than Nihilus though.

?

Meetra said that Mando Wars Revan was more powerful than anyone she'd ever met, which would include Nihilus. Darth Malak was able to Darth Revan totally shit his pants in terror in a "desperate" fight and Darth Revan was more powerful than his renegade Jedi incarnation. Thus Malak is far more powerful than Nihilus, Sadow and Kun.

Ant:

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Heh. Well thing with Malak is, like I said yesterday, you should accept implication, hype, and authorial intent when factoring him into a debate to properly assess his character given his limited showings. You don't need to, of course, and what you got then is someone like Nephthys. Nephthys isn't necessary wrong in his assessments of Darth Malak since he looks everything at direct face-value without taking into consideration anything else, but even besides the fact that in doing such is enormous double-standards, it's not really fair and clearly not what Darth Malak was worked out to be when creating his character.

That's fine, you just need to remember to provide "implications" that genuinely imply something, hype that is genuinely meaningful, and authorial intent that well.. is authorial intent and not just you suggesting it might be.

Darth Malak was designed as someone who is clearly able to challenge beings on the playing field of Revan, and is even a better duelist than Revan Reborn (novel Revan incarnation). I sincerely doubt you could say the same for Darth Maul

Depends on what Revan you're referring to, but I really don't care for your assessment that Malak is a Revan villain and therefore he's by necessity above Maul - especially when you consider that Malak has had his jaw taken off by Darth Revan and lost to KotoR!Revan while he himself was enormously amped and had some Jedi lunchboxes to draw on, opposed to Revan who was massively weakened (and by your own admission, not even able to draw on the Force too effectively due to the nexus hindering his ability to use Force powers).

It's just a faulty argument.

unless we are purely factoring in technical skill with a lightsaber.

Which most certainly goes in favour of the guy who performs hundreds of thousands of lightsaber maneuvers every day just as training.

He has Force powers that has labeled him as one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history and is believed by many to have even surpassed Darth Revan - who is enormously powerful in his own right.

If your argument is that Malak has a "best in history" accolade and Maul doesn't, so Malak is superior; concede immediately that both Malak, Revan and anyone else who lacks a "best of history" lightsaber accolade, is below Maul by necessity, because he has plenty of them.

That said that's pretty stupid. Most people can be considered the most powerful in history; there tends to be a ****ton of competition.

Explain to me why Malak is more powerful than Darth Revan off of the Star Forge.

I have a hard time believing Darth Maul is going to be able to defend against Darth Malak's telekinetic assaults that are instantly overcoming midgame!Revan, the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy, or his Force Stasis fields which are also ridiculously powerful. He also has considerable Force Drain and Force Lightning that should be able to tip the tide as well.

Make your argument for Malak being powerful enough to subdue Maul. Is "midgame!Revan" more powerful than Maul?

Also, explain to me why I should care about his lightning or drain.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Meetra said that Mando Wars Revan was more powerful than anyone she'd ever met, which would include Nihilus. Darth Malak was able to Darth Revan totally shit his pants in terror in a "desperate" fight and Darth Revan was more powerful than his renegade Jedi incarnation. Thus Malak is far more powerful than Nihilus, Sadow and Kun.

I see.

Also, Malak has a metal jaw.

Well that would help.

So where do you stand on this fight, Neph?

I think an argument can be made for either side, actually. I think Vitiate and Kun can fight with Sidious for an extensive period of time and either can defeat Krayt in about as easily as Vitiate beat Revan. Malak is inferior to Maul, but would he lose before or after Krayt would lose? And would it even matter? Could Maul actually contribute to a fight against Vitiate and Kun? Vitiate's mental abilities are also a potent factor to consider.

Lastly, although we all prefer to just pair up everyone, the concept of teamwork could be considered. Team 2 is probably a more cohesive combination, but Vitiate would work well by spamming Force powers behind some meat shields.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Meetra said that Mando Wars Revan was more powerful than anyone she'd ever met, which would include Nihilus. Darth Malak was able to Darth Revan totally shit his pants in terror in a "desperate" fight and Darth Revan was more powerful than his renegade Jedi incarnation. Thus Malak is far more powerful than Nihilus, Sadow and Kun.

Assuming Meetra considers Nihilus strong in the Force despite believing and being told precisely the opposite for a year, even saying as much herself. Neither Meetra or Traya consider Nihilus genuinely powerful, they consider him a dead end and an abomination.

Nai-

Help yourself for Kun. Vitiate? Seriously? The guy leveled a strike team consisting of some of the most powerful Jedi in the Galaxy - including the HoT and turned the likes of Revan and Malak into his personal slaves with his mind domination. Maul is going to do what exactly? I'm not even sure that Sidious can shrug that off, but Maul...? Pff.

I'm not going to respond to a short essay, just make your argument.

For the strike team, correct me if I'm wrong here; but didn't Vitiate increase in power after the Revan novel?

For turning Revan and Malak; I recall that happened on a large dark side nexus, which Vitiate would be considerably amped by while Revan and Malak [who IIRC were already leaning toward the dark side due to their actions in the war] would be considerably affected by it.

I'm basically asking you: what can Vitiate as of the Revan novel do off of a dark side nexus. When you do that I'll either agree with you or put up a case for Maul.

Malak has force choked and electrocuted several Jedi at once - and he was capable of holding up Revan for a brief period of time, even if he finally was defeated by his former comrade.

I believe the showings you're referring to took place on/near the Star Forge, which by Ant's admission in his Malak respect thread would have amplified Malak; and presumably weakened those Jedi as well. Add that to onto this query - are the Jedi even of considerable power? - and I'd say it's not something that puts Malak above Maul; the guy who has repeatedly handed a powerful Jedi like Obi-Wan Kenobi his ass with telekinesis.

And as I said to Ant; Malak lost his jaw to Darth Revan in a good fight and lost to KotoR!Revan with massive advantages on his side and massive disadvantages on Revan's side. That doesn't equate to them being particularly close in my book.

I wonder how you translated my "I'm not certain[...]" regarding Malak's chance to win a lightsaber fight against Maul into "We agree that he has no chance." Again: He was capable of keeping up with Revan over a certain period of time, even if he happily admits he is inferior to his former comrade, after being defeated by him.

I just don't understand how repeatedly losing to Revan is meant to compete with:

--Being accoladed as one of the most skilled, highly trained and dangerous Sith Warriors in all of history.
--Being highly regarded by Darths Sidious and Plagueis for both his speed and swordsmanship.
--Comfortably defeating one of the most skilled swordmasters the Jedi have produced in 25,000 years twice, the second time while he had the aid of his apprentice.
--Fighting evenly with and even at times defeating CW!Obi-Wan Kenobi; the Jedi's foremost master of Soresu who has defeated numerous powerful duelists himself.
--Curbstomping Savage Opress, who in turn has defeated highly skilled combatants such as Asajj Ventress and Plo Koon.

Then add in Maul's better proven physicality as a fighter in terms of strength, speed, endurance etc, superior technical skill with a lightsaber, superior tactical abilities, superior versatility.. I'm not seeing how Malak really compares.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Assuming Meetra considers Nihilus strong in the Force despite believing and being told precisely the opposite for a year, even saying as much herself. Neither Meetra or Traya consider Nihilus genuinely powerful, they consider him a dead end and an abomination.

Indeed. The phrase used was also that Revan's "command of the Force" was better than any she'd met, which is equally as likely to refer to his Force Mastery. And considering that Darth Revan has never demonstrated anything even close to Nihilus' level, that's certainly the better interpretation.

It's just that Ant is really dumb and biased.

Being on par to or better than Revan isn't somehow a ticket to equating Darth Maul in lightsaber skill.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Indeed. The phrase used was also that Revan's "command of the Force" was better than any she'd met, which is equally as likely to refer to his Force Mastery. And considering that Darth Revan has never demonstrated anything even close to Nihilus' level, that's certainly the better interpretation.

It's just that Ant is really dumb and biased.

That assumes that Revan has to have certain feats for that claim to be true. Which is faulty.

The truth is you're both pretty badly biased on the subject.

That said, it does seem to point more towards Force mastery than raw power.