Originally posted by AncientPower
Assuming Meetra considers Nihilus strong in the Force despite believing and being told precisely the opposite for a year, even saying as much herself. Neither Meetra or Traya consider Nihilus genuinely powerful, they consider him a dead end and an abomination.
"To kill on such a scale... it's impossible. I don't understand - it would have taken several Republic cruisers to destroy the surface of Katarr."
―Meetra Surik (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)
"He speaks, his voice roaring, and the player should realize that Nihilus is FAR more powerful than they had believed."
―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords Dialog Files
Also note that right before that, the player learns that Darth Nihilus is about to destroy Telos and ripped his ships from Malachor.
So no, Meetra Surik regards Darth Nihilus as beyond impossibly powerful. 👆
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The truth is you're both pretty badly biased on the subject.
You have been one of the leading members for saying Darth Nihilus has limits in battle and his power. What's changed?
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, because Meetra wouldn't consider something impossible if Revan was more powerful than that level.
Like, seriously? 😬 😆
Just because she views Revan as more powerful doesn't mean she knew that such power could be capable of having so much impact on a world.
We know that Surik was not fully aware (at all) of how dark and corrupted Revan's powers had become.
No, I haven't.
Saying Zannah is Palpatine level or that Bane is above Revan/Wrath/Marr/Shan/Beniko/Shae/Jakorro/Theron is far worse.
Revan and Malak > Nihilus rocks the cock of bad ideas.
Basically, you use and wank character statements written by DK on books that retconned the original source material when you see fit, but then freely feel you can deny character statements written by DK on books that retconned the original source material when you don't like what's being said with the argument that it didn't give the original source material proper recognition.
Lol, u mad.
You used that quote to demonstrate Meetra's thoughts on power. It doesn't matter what she wasn't aware of, the whole thing comes from what she was aware of. She based that assessment of Revan on her knowledge of him prior to Nihilus, so she'd have the same assessment in mind when stating that it's impossible to do such a thing. Which is supported by the fact that it's laughable to consider Darth Revan having the power to destroy a village, let alone a planet.
Just admit you fvcked up because you're now seriously defending the idea that Malak > Nihilus which is a good way to become a justified target of ridicule.
Neph, he's not wrong when he says that you defend a lot of dumb ideas.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Not sure how it's bias if you recognize a quote from the Jedi Exile saying Revan is more powerful than Darth Nihilus. mmm
But Neph's not necessarily wrong here. The quote doesn't actually say Revan > Nihilus. All it says is that the Exile believes Revan to have a greater command of the Force than anyone she's ever encountered. Neph might contend that Nihilus is a greater master of the Force than someone like Revan, but no one sane would. That doesn't mean that Revan is functionally "more powerful" than Nihilus as we define it. I wouldn't claim that Starkiller is a more masterful practitioner of the Force than Darth Tyranus, but he's certainly more powerful.
That said, I don't subscribe to the notion that simply because Revan hasn't nom-nommed planets under the same ambiguous circumstances Nihilus has that he can't be "more powerful" either.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You have been one of the leading members for saying Darth Nihilus has limits in battle and his power. What's changed?
Strawman. Hesitating to agree with the notion that Revan is as "powerful" as Nihilus does not equate to the idea that Nihilus is limitless.
You used that quote to demonstrate Meetra's thoughts on power. It doesn't matter what she wasn't aware of, the whole thing comes from what she was aware of. She based that assessment of Revan on her knowledge of him prior to Nihilus, so she'd have the same assessment in mind when stating that it's impossible to do such a thing.
What she isn't aware of is important because she's clearly not aware that anyone is capable of destroying a world with the Force. Just because she views Revan as more powerful does not mean she is aware that he is capable of destroying worlds. We know for a fact Revan was concealing his dark side powers from the Jedi Order, and that could have influence over Surik's realization that beings as powerful as Nihilus / Revan are capable of performing feats on such a scale.
Which is supported by the fact that it's laughable to consider Darth Revan having the power to destroy a village, let alone a planet.
Just admit you fvcked up because you're now seriously defending the idea that Malak > Nihilus
which is a good way to become a justified target of ridicule.
All it says is that the Exile believes Revan to have a greater command of the Force than anyone she's ever encountered.
Would you consider intentional telekinesis as evidence of one's "command of the Force?"
If so, then she was gauging his "command of the Force" as more impressive than people hyping Nihilus to be capable of moving fleets and destroying worlds.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I think an argument can be made for either side, actually. I think Vitiate and Kun can fight with Sidious for an extensive period of time and either can defeat Krayt in about as easily as Vitiate beat Revan. Malak is inferior to Maul, but would he lose before or after Krayt would lose? And would it even matter? Could Maul actually contribute to a fight against Vitiate and Kun? Vitiate's mental abilities are also a potent factor to consider.Lastly, although we all prefer to just pair up everyone, the concept of teamwork could be considered. Team 2 is probably a more cohesive combination, but Vitiate would work well by spamming Force powers behind some meat shields.
Let's assume for the sake of argument that Vitiate/Kun are peers? of the Emperor and, therefore, can one-shot Maul. Couldn't the Emperor or even Krayt do the same with Malak, whom you regard as Maul's inferior?
Of course.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What she isn't aware of is important because she's clearly not aware that anyone is capable of destroying a world with the Force. Just because she views Revan as more powerful does not mean she is aware that he is capable of destroying worlds. We know for a fact Revan was concealing his dark side powers from the Jedi Order, and that could have influence over Surik's realization that beings as powerful as Nihilus / Revan are capable of performing feats on such a scale.
She never gained that awareness about Revan, because he never did anything remotely on that scale that she'd know about or that could possibly imply it. She isn't aware that he's capable of that, because he isn't. If she's comparing Revan to the power of others, it logically follows that she's basing it solely on things she knows or has reason to believe that he's actually capable of doing.
Meetra doesn't view Revan as more powerful, she's referring to mastery.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan's affected entire fleets with his dark powers on Malachor.
Using the power of Malachor. It's also not a direct feat of power. Bastila can affect fleets, who cares. Your bum-buddy Drew stated that Revan only "might" destroy a building. LOLOLOLOL!
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm defending Revan > Nihilus. I haven't really spoke of Malak in comparison to Nihilus this entire thread, to my memory. Only you have.
You championing Malak is merely the logical conclusion of your ideas.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I best take your word for it then. You know more about to become a justified target of ridicule than anyone else on KMC.
Blatantly untrue when Legend exists. Sorry, Legend.
She never gained that awareness about Revan, because he never did anything remotely on that scale that she'd know about or that could possibly imply it.
She isn't aware that he's capable of that, because he isn't.
If she's comparing Revan to the power of others, it logically follows that she's basing it solely on things she knows or has reason to believe that he's actually capable of doing.
The point of the quote is that she regards him as incredibly powerful.
She regards Revan as more incredibly powerful.
Bitching over that Revan can't be more powerful than that which is already "impossible" or blah blah is pretty pathetic.
Just because she didn't know Revan was capable of doing such a feat doesn't mean he can't.
She could have easily gauged his strength via his presence in the Force.
Even if we go by your train of logic and that they can't both mutually exist, then her quote considering it's impossible is retconned by the newer Revan novelization. 👆
That leaves us with Surik listening to stories of how Nihilus consumed worlds and moved fleets, yet still found him to be "far more powerful" than said legends in person.
Yet she regards Revan in greater praise. mmm
Meetra doesn't view Revan as more powerful, she's referring to mastery.
Personally, I would classify it as an indication of both - but mainly the former.
Using the power of Malachor. It's also not a direct feat of power.
He's harnessing the power capable of affecting fleets - which is either an incredible display of mental resistance and telepathy or tutaminis / drain.
Bastila can affect fleets, who cares.
Your bum-buddy Drew stated that Revan only "might" destroy a building.
You championing Malak is merely the [b]logical conclusion of your ideas.[/b]
Blatantly untrue when Legend exists. Sorry, Legend.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
mmmWhere is dis purported?
Another of Revan's feats I personally introduced to the world.
"Revan used the Trayus Academy to influence the battle above Malachor V, using its power to affect the tide of battle and corrupt others to the Sith. "
―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
"Revan is able to draw upon the dark side energies of the planet below and use it during the battle."
―Star Wars: Chronicles of the Old Republic
Ant, I didn't realize you posed that question to me since you didn't actually address me in the post. uhuh
To answer your question: I'm not sure. I've had this discussion with others in the past, but it's pretty hard at times to distinguish a feat as one that derives primarily from "raw power" and/or "mastery."
It becomes a semantics game. You'd think Anakin Skywalker, by dint of his unparalleled midichlorian count, would have a higher "command of the Force" than anybody in the sense that he can command it more easily and thoroughly than those of lesser attunement. Yet we know that's not true. And he's often outclassed in displays of "core" abilities {e.g. TK} by those who are, on-paper, weaker in the Force than he.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Another of Revan's feats I personally introduced to the world."Revan used the Trayus Academy to influence the battle above Malachor V, using its power to affect the tide of battle and corrupt others to the Sith. "
―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords"Revan is able to draw upon the dark side energies of the planet below and use it during the battle."
―Star Wars: Chronicles of the Old Republic
Intriguing. So he used the nexus to achieve that feat.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
mmmWhere is dis purported?
How so?
In Ants respect thread. I see he's posted some of it. Predictably, Ant is overstating things. It doesn't actually say "tipping the entire tide of the battle and corrupting many Jedi." It just says he corrupted some and that it affected the fight. Its more a feat for Malachor than anything.
Like I said, Sidious' fight would be inconclusive by the time Krayt loses to his opponent.
@Tempest: I was unaware one as great as yourself needed to be addressed. I figured you would simply know what I asked given your self-proclaimed god-like powers.
And, interesting. 👆 Then by the looks of it, it goes down to a matter of interpretation. Nephthys and I should both be able to have our separate opinions.
It doesn't actually say "tipping the entire tide of the battle and corrupting many Jedi." It just says he corrupted some and that if affected the fight.
We can logically conclude he corrupted all his Jedi under his command given they all left with him into the Unknown Regions loyally. To me that's "many." 👆
Another description says that "more and more Jedi" were corrupted. So it's clearly a lot.
And by the looks of it he did tip the entire tide of the battle because, before his arrival, Meetra Surik and her forces were being utterly creamed by the Mandalorians.