It's also worth mentioning that Darth Sion and Nihilus, who presumably where also exposed to the teachings of the Trayus Academy, did not share Kreia's opinions, and in fact overthrew her because of her teachings.
Of course, its possible they didn't read the Sith hermetica, but then again if it has some kind of mental domination powers one would of thought Kreia would have simply made them read it to ensure their unwavering loyalty. Guess she missed a pip there.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66Well given that a mere brush against Scourge's mind sent him on the ground crying like a *****...
That's nice and all, but Scourge saw visions of Vitiate lying defeated at the hands of Revan. So unless you think Revan and Meetra can solo Scourge and Vitiate...there's something wrong there.
[/b]
I'm not talking about the Hero's Strike Team. I'm talking about the Sixth Line.
Featless, not really comparable to anyone on this team.
[/b]
Resisting Malachor V (which ****ed over Kreia), resisting Nathema (which ****ed over the Exile), and resisting the Star Forge (which ****ed over the Rakata) >>>[/b]
Prove he resisted. Bro he was corrupted by all of them which culminated in his mind ****ing by Vitiate, I'm pretty sure it's even stated that by the time Revan and Malak reached Vitiate they were already pretty much DS warriors.
Well Talzin does everything with rituals and spells, so that shouldn't be much of a surprise.And what, she couldn't have ****ed over Dooku off Dathomir? 😬 What's the support of that claim? [/B]
Prove she could have.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Prove considerably. We know she was weakened, we hardly know to what extent. Also is there even any proof that the entirety of Droumund Kaas is a nexus?
Oh I'm sorry, nitpicking terminology now are we? Well I'm not going to repeat myself, though you apparently can't so much as read the last few pages so I shall make it simple for you:
Jaina Solo, Kyle Katarn and Ben Skywalker suffered migraines, total Dark Side corruption, and loss of a connection to the Force respectively whilst on a Dromund Kaas that had become far less potent after thousands of years.
Now considering Revan, a far stronger Force User than Surik was unable to use even basic Force Sense to it's full capacity on Dromund Kaas then Surik would be even worse off than him.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
First of all a charged force storm is not comparable to a casual burst of lightning such as what Dooku has shown. Second, even if that's true Dooku has clashed evenly with Yoda himself. Meetra does not compare.
No, it's a far greater offensive display of power than Dooku has ever shown, also one arc of Nyriss' casual one-handed lightning instantaneously husked two prison guards, they didn't even register her attack before being charred to a husk.
Am I missing something or are you accidentally proving Dooku's inferiority to Nyriss?
As others have proved Dooku was nothing like even with Yoda, nor comparable for that matter.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Lol you've been a user for a year. I've been around here way longer than you, and it's not noteworthy. We use the Lucasarts canon policy around here.
I was a user from 2004 - 2006 as well, but I am not here to measure dicks, no one but you so far has a problem with using unmodified cut content.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Being the finest warriors amongst the nightsisters of dathomir is actually a pretty good accolade considering nightsisters>nightbrothers and an unarmed nightbrother was able to match Ventress in H2H.
Still have absolutely no way to defend themselves in the slightest agaimst Dooku's Force attacks. They are what you would really call fodder in this kind of comparison.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Again. A charged force storm is not comparable to a casual burst.
No it is not, Nyriss' casual burst charred two men to a husk and would do the same to powerful Force Users unless successfully defended against.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
She intercepted a bolt meant for Vos, why would her defenses be down?
Because no mention of any defensive action is even implied.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Oh yes he was.
"The two engaged in a titanic struggle of Force powers, neither besting the other."
"The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched."
As proven earlier those sources have been outdated and contradicted for a long time, considering Yoda is as powerful as Sidious himself, someone who effortlessly choked out Dooku via hologram.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
I'll take your concession in this thread, although if you want to do it more intimately in private you can shoot me a PM. 😉
Concession? Is this a personal admission deflected towards me or am I missing something because both you and Carthage (whom I will address shortly) have both failed to prove Dooku is even Traya or Amped!Nyriss' equal in Force prowess.
If I'm suffering brain damage you must be completely brain dead because not once have I claimed the Exile beats Dooku in Force or sabers, I am disputing the claim that he is considerably stronger than her in the Force if at all.
Also, that wasn't my logic at all, Stark claimed Dooku was an even for or comparable to Yoda in the Force which as proven is blatantly incorrect. Yoda is far above his tier.
Unless you have another feat that Dooku has, making him an equal for Traya or Nyriss then wait your turn, your previous reply to me will be dealt with.
(P.S. Making a list of people that Traya and Nyriss could solidly defeat in a Force contest isn't a valid debating tactic.)
Originally posted by carthage
His lightning only needs to knock her down, it doesn't have to incinerate her but nice red herring . That also doesn't mean his telekinesis wouldn't affect her either , which you haven't refuted and Dooku has better telekinetic showings than Nyriss. His combination of telekinesis/lightning is enough to keep her on edge, and she has nothing in her showings to suggest she doesn't get blasted back as what happened with Nyriss.
Except for the blatant fact that Meetra Surik was not at full strength and hastily threw up a Force barrier, in a neutal setting she almost certainly would have blocked that barrage outright.
Originally posted by carthage
[B]A barrier feat where she gets blown back and which says nothing about her ability to soak up superior telekinesis doesn't make her more powerful. The feats you listed don't put her above Kenobi let alone Dooku. As for her augmentative abilities that's nice, but as she's more of a support force user none of them are of any use against a duelist/offensive force user on Dookus's level. And no Revan besting Malak in spite of being hindered and Malak being one of the most powerful Sith lords of all time is a feat beyond Meetra.
A barrier feat blocking more offensive power than Dooku has ever summoned you mean?
The Exile cutting down a legion of elite Sith before cutting down Sion thrice followed by Darth Traya on a geyser of Dark Side force energy amping all of them which simultaneously made Meetra severely physically and mentally ill is a greater collection of feats than Dooku or Kenobi can compare to.
The above feat at the very least equals the Revan Starforge feat.
Originally posted by carthage
When has she used Sever force in combat, or on an individual on par with Dooku?
Chris Avellone states she could temporarily deafen Revan to the Force, a far more powerful Force user than Count Dooku:
"...unless the Exile pulled some strange Force deafening move, but even that wouldn’t keep Revan down for long."Source: Chris Avellone
Originally posted by carthage
The only person that even compares to Dooku is Lucien Draay, and his showings in the force surpass Meetra's as well😬
LOL he barely compares, he's got nothing on Meetra's Malachor V marathon.
Originally posted by carthage
How am I "lowballing them" when escaping Darth Sion, surviving the Mandalorian wars, and being "very powerful" have nothing to do with their [b]actual showings in the force 😂[/B]
Another poor excuse for an exposure card? Come on Carth, they all have feats, Kavar blitzing Vaklu soldiers is one, Vrook Lamar being capable of stunning Surik and her party is another.
Originally posted by carthage
Canon begs to differ 👆
With your outdated and retconned sources.
Originally posted by carthage
None of what you listed is comparable to Dooku's accolades:-Credit to ShootingNova
Yes he does have very good accolades, meanwhile Meetra has this:
[Meetra Surik] should be a powerhouse of destruction.
-Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide
Average beings stand no chance of stopping these ultra-powerful monsters of the dark side. Only the greatest heroes may ultimately defeat them.Source: Power Beyond Belief: Using Ultra Powerful Sith Lords in Saga Edition
Thanks to ShootingNova.
Originally posted by carthage
Considering fighting evenly with Yoda in the force surpasses anything a loser like the Exile could ever accomplish your bravado is amusing 👆
That would be true.. if it was true, which as we all now know it blatantly isn't.
A master of the Force like Meetra is certainly not a 'loser':
"This form is considered the pinnacle of Force Mastery."
Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
The esoteric Force forms are the domain of the Jedi Master and Sith Lord. [Meetra Surik] gains supreme mastery with Force powers.Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide
"This is among one of the greatest techniques of the Jedi Master - yet when one has seen all that you have, it is such a simple thing, you may wonder why you did not notice it before."
Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
Originally posted by carthage
I haven't had a chance to post anything for Mace or Maul yet lol. I think I've already proved the point for Dooku though 👆
You have proven nothing but your continuous tendency to ignore context, you have however failed to prove Dooku is on Traya or Nyriss tier.
Except for the blatant fact that Meetra Surik was not at full strength and hastily threw up a Force barrier, in a neutal setting she almost certainly would have blocked that barrage outright.
You mean to tell me the person who can withstand a "colossal" geyser of energy and beat someone who is supposedly more powerful than Dooku- can't even fully withstand the brunt of lightning on a less powerful nexus? I think that's what you're trying to tell me. If she can't even withstand lightning while on a weaker nexus than Malachor, and Nyriss isn't even as powerful as someone who can choke/torment Anakin with lightning/challenge Yoda's deflection with lightning than you've got no case.
A barrier feat blocking more offensive power than Dooku has ever summoned you mean?
The Exile cutting down a legion of elite Sith before cutting down Sion thrice followed by Darth Traya on a geyser of Dark Side force energy amping all of them which simultaneously made Meetra severely physically and mentally ill is a greater collection of feats than Dooku or Kenobi can compare to.
Lesser duelists like Ben Skywalker or Anakin Solo can kill entire hordes of fodder. There is nothing great about killing weaklings, Dooku has repeatedly bested the greatest Jedi of his era from Kenobi, to Bulq, to fighting evenly with Anakin to even besting Mace Windu in sparring. He could easily slaughter anyone from The Exile's era in a duel, whereas, Meetra has no feats in skill putting her above Bulq, Kenobi, or even Qui Gon Jinn
And no you haven't proved that Dooku's lightning wouldn't put her on her ass.
Chris Avellone states she could temporarily deafen Revan to the Force, a far more powerful Force user than Count Dooku:
😂
Considering Revan's vastly more powerful and skilled than she is, I'll take that as a hyperbolic claim.
Another poor excuse for an exposure card? Come on Carth, they all have feats, Kavar blitzing Vaklu soldiers is one, Vrook Lamar being capable of stunning Surik and her party is another.
Your original claim was that Traya draining them was somehow better than anything Dooku has done, and when pressed to show feats that these featless Jedi above Anakin/Kenobi/Bulq or anyone Dooku has bested with the force- you posted irrelevant nonsense about Mandalorians or vague accolades. So what he used stun on The Exile, I guess that makes her even less powerful considering that's another slap on her barrier feats 👆. Even Ventress a force user whom Dooku has ragdolled/sent flying multiple times could use force stun Kenobi. Try harder.
With your outdated and retconned sources.
Prove they are outdated/or retconned. And DMB's quotes don't prove anything other than Dooku lost the lightsaber duel and even they are in conflict with the movie, where it shows Dooku performing much better than in any secondary source 👆
That would be true.. if it was true, which as we all now know it blatantly isn't.A master of the Force like Meetra is certainly not a 'loser':[/qiuote]
Appeal to a majority lmao, and multiple quotes prove you wrong. Unless you've got something that contradicts them, concede the point. Even the novelization states that Yoda had difficulty deflecting his lightning, and that falls in line with the quotes I posted (which you haven't refuted):
[quote]Dooku gave a little growl and thrust forth his hand, loosing a line of blue lightning at the diminutive Master. Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily.
Source: Attack of the Clones
You have proven nothing but your continuous tendency to ignore context, you have however failed to prove Dooku is on Traya or Nyriss tier.
The day Traya or Nyriss have anything else other nexus feats, ragdoll trash tier force users whom Dooku would stomp, or have an accolade calling them one of the most powerful Force users in History/one of the most powerful Jedi we'll talk. Nyriss has no lightning feats off nexus to support being more powerful than Dooku, and no TK feats, deflection feats, or accolades to match Tyranus anywhere. Traya likewise has nothing on what I've posted either.
Originally posted by AncientPowerNo, it's a far greater offensive display of power than Dooku has ever shown, also one arc of Nyriss' casual one-handed lightning instantaneously husked two prison guards, they didn't even register her attack before being charred to a husk.
And it occurred on a darkside nexus which calls into question if she could even replicate the feat off nexus. Moreover to the point the lightning still put Meetra on her ass, in spite of the fact she can "supposedly" compete with Traya on a more powerful Nexus. I smell inconsistent bullshit for her supposedly "invincible barriers", and Dooku has superior force feats to Nyriss overall so her lightning's potency is irrelevant.
Am I missing something or are you accidentally proving Dooku's inferiority to Nyriss?
She sent Scourge flying, Dooku has choked/tortured Anakin with lightning/blasted him back and didn't need a nexus to do it. Anakin has vastly superior force feats to Meetra as well
As others have proved Dooku was nothing like even with Yoda, nor comparable for that matter.
By showcasing sources that depict the lightsaber fight and not the force duel at the beginning of their encounter 👆. Nothing contradicts the quotes.
Still have absolutely no way to defend themselves in the slightest agaimst Dooku's Force attacks. They are what you would really call fodder in this kind of comparison.
He was in a weakened state when he blasted the nightsisters, poisoned and drugged and he still took them out. Meetra hasn't even got a single offensive force feat you've shown against a comparable force user.
No it is not, Nyriss' casual burst charred two men to a husk and would do the same to powerful Force Users unless successfully defended against.
Which occurred on a darkside nexus, and there is no proof she can do it of her own power
As proven earlier those sources have been outdated and contradicted for a long time, considering Yoda is as powerful as Sidious himself, someone who effortlessly choked out Dooku via hologram.
Yoda isn't as powerful as Sidious, so using a quote where a more powerful can KO Dooku isn't an adequate response for canon sources you can't disprove
All I can hear is desperate lowballing from you, you clearly have no decent argument that puts Dooku on the tier of Sith that Meetra can match or defeat.
Your argument is essentially, "All these PT characters godstomp KOTOR era characters" using your own benign biased logic to downplay anything with less exposure.
Vitiate TP mindrapes these tier-8-at-best PT characters, if he by some miracle fails to do that he destroys them with an FLS.
Originally posted by AncientPower
I didn't concede troglodyte, but your hilarious logic isn't worth wasting my time debating.Dooku >>>>> Traya/Nyriss/Surik, clearly he is Revan tier.
😂
You haven't shown a single feat of Meetra's that put her above Kenobi's level of the force, and I never claimed Dooku was as powerful as Revan in this debate I said he was approaching. Which is easily supported by feats/accolades as opposed to anything you posted. Keep up the bravado though, its entertaining 👆
Originally posted by Sinious
I think a better discussion could b held if Vitiate is not allowed to use his TP. I believe there are people who think he would still win and some people think he would lose even with his TP attack so I'd enjoy seeing how that would go.
Let's make it into two rounds then:
Round 1: Vitiate cannot use his TP.
Round 2: Vitiate can use his TP.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Also who has Vitiate mind controlled remotely on the level of Maul, Dooku and Mace.
In-fact, Revan and Malak simultaneously.
The legendary Jedi Revan and Malak confront the Sith Emperor in his throne room on Dromund Kaas. In mere moments, the Jedi lay defeated and consumed by the dark side of the Force. (SWTOR - E)
In-fact, Vitiate went as far as to outright destroy the minds of some Jedi who attempted to assassinate him.
He was a living embodiment of the dark side of the Force who delighted in destroying the minds and spirits of those Jedi who came too close to him. (SWTOR - E)
As for the capability:
The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side. (SWTOR)
---
E = Encyclopedia
SWTOR = Star Wars: The Old Republic
Originally posted by AncientPower
Oh I'm sorry, nitpicking terminology now are we? Well I'm not going to repeat myself, though you apparently can't so much as read the last few pages so I shall make it simple for you:
Do you have a source?
Now considering Revan, a far stronger Force User than Surik was unable to use even basic Force Sense to it's full capacity on Dromund Kaas then Surik would be even worse off than him.
Surik is a hole in the force, you don't even have proof she is affected by nexuses at all.
No, it's a far greater offensive display of power than Dooku has ever shown, also one arc of Nyriss' casual one-handed lightning instantaneously husked two prison guards, they didn't even register her attack before being charred to a husk.
Lol no its not. Not only is Dooku's lightning capable of killing someone of Ventress' calibre in one short burst. It's capable of killing someone as powerful as Vos with a single blast.
Am I missing something or are you accidentally proving Dooku's inferiority to Nyriss?As others have proved Dooku was nothing like even with Yoda, nor comparable for that matter.
Oh boy, here we go. I suppose you also think Mace Windu wasn't even with Sidious or comparable to him?
I was a user from 2004 - 2006 as well, but I am not here to measure dicks, no one but you so far has a problem with using unmodified cut content.
Its n-canon, I'm not the only one who believes that, namely the Lucasarts team. Not that defeating one more mook matters.
Still have absolutely no way to defend themselves in the slightest agaimst Dooku's Force attacks. They are what you would really call fodder in this kind of comparison.
No it is not, Nyriss' casual burst charred two men to a husk and would do the same to powerful Force Users unless successfully defended against.
Prove it. She husked two defenseless guards, that does not mean she can husk powerful force users.
Because no mention of any defensive action is even implied.
Are you serious? It takes half a second to raise a force barrier. Why would she not when she's eating a lightning bolt. Also you're using a ridiculous double standard considering you're saying Dooku would have had his guard up talking to Sidious and Ventress wouldn't when literally blocking his lightning with her body.
As proven earlier those sources have been outdated and contradicted for a long time, considering Yoda is as powerful as Sidious himself, someone who effortlessly choked out Dooku via hologram.
Prove his guard was up or stop referencing this. You can't say Ventress didn't have her guard up in a combatant situation, then turn around and say Dooku must have had his guard up cuz he's Dooku. Stupid logic.
Concession? Is this a personal admission deflected towards me or am I missing something because both you and Carthage (whom I will address shortly) have both failed to prove Dooku is even Traya or Amped!Nyriss' equal in Force prowess. [/B]
Lol alright I'll just go ahead and outline exactly why Dooku is more powerful than either of them. Both of them only have feats on nexuses, so allow me to post Dooku's nexus feats.
"Her face went pale. Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain.“Please,” she said. “Don’t.”
“It doesn’t feel very good, does it? Like sharp stones in your throat and chest.”
Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor.
“It’s the blood vessels I hate,” Dooku said. “The way they stretch inside, like balloons about to pop.”
“P-p-p-please…”
“But worse than anything is the memories,” he said, more softly still. “They crowd around, like flies on meat. Every despicable thing, every petty vice, every little act of spite.”
Ventress, who is easily at the level of a Jedi Council member by this point, and was blitzing Kit Fisto is demolished by the Count lifting a finger
As Yoda released Whirry from his mind’s hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku’s lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count’s blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.
This is above anything either of them have shown, unless you want to argue Nyriss and Traya who are 'infinitely' weaker than Vitiate can land a blow on someone who is his superior.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Do you have a source?Surik is a hole in the force, you don't even have proof she is affected by nexuses at all.
Lol no its not. Not only is Dooku's lightning capable of killing someone of Ventress' calibre in one short burst. It's capable of killing someone as powerful as Vos with a single blast.
Oh boy, here we go. I suppose you also think Mace Windu wasn't even with Sidious or comparable to him?
Its n-canon, I'm not the only one who believes that, namely the Lucasarts team. Not that defeating one more mook matters.
Prove it. She husked two defenseless guards, that does not mean she can husk powerful force users.
Are you serious? It takes half a second to raise a force barrier. Why would she not when she's eating a lightning bolt. Also you're using a ridiculous double standard considering you're saying Dooku would have had his guard up talking to Sidious and Ventress wouldn't when literally blocking his lightning with her body.
Prove his guard was up or stop referencing this. You can't say Ventress didn't have her guard up in a combatant situation, then turn around and say Dooku must have had his guard up cuz he's Dooku. Stupid logic.
Lol alright I'll just go ahead and outline exactly why Dooku is more powerful than either of them. Both of them only have feats on nexuses, so allow me to post Dooku's nexus feats.
Ventress, who is easily at the level of a Jedi Council member by this point, and was blitzing Kit Fisto is demolished by the Count lifting a finger
This is above anything either of them have shown, unless you want to argue Nyriss and Traya who are 'infinitely' weaker than Vitiate can land a blow on someone who is his superior.
*do you have a source for Meetra being significantly weakened.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
- Revan
- Hero of Tython
- Surro
- Malak
- Tol BragaIn-fact, Revan and Malak simultaneously.
Tol Braga, Malak, and Revan all broke his hold, and even so there's really no evidence that any of them are Maul-level. I don't know who Surro is.
Revan and Malak arguably have greater willpower than Maul and they broke his control after a considerable amount of time and didn't do so completely, they had to warp their own thoughts and were still under his partial control. Tol Braga is the only one to fully break his control after some time and even then he was broken mentally.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan and Malak arguably have greater willpower than Maul and they broke his control after a considerable amount of time and didn't do so completely, they had to warp their own thoughts and were still under his partial control. Tol Braga is the only one to fully break his control after some time and even then he was broken mentally.
They had already been corrupted by the Dark Side, making them more susceptible to corruption though...also is there even a source to him doing this without prep?