Originally posted by relentless1
i refer to the clone wars then, anakin and obi are great swordsman and savage manhandled them on his first encounter with them. Sidious kills savage while fighting him and maul with utter ease...that dude isn't going to lose a sword fight to mace unless he wants to.
Your ABC logic does not compute.
Mace never fought Anakin and Obi and (from what I know) he has never fought Maul or Opress.
So how Sids compares to Maul/Opress has no bearing to how he compares with Windu.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) Commentaries are not allowed man. I will refer to mod ruling.2) Pls refer me to a part of the movie/television where Vapaad was mentioned and explained so I can review its impact on the fight. Til then pls stop using it in your argument. Provide clips and timestamps pls. Also, Windu used his own skill (whether Vapaad is admissible or not), stop asserting that he didn't.
3) Or it can be argued that they got in his way as. You need to prove that they had any impact on the fight by the criteria I've presented in the thread (see: my debate with DT), all they might as well have been air or furniture. Cuz that's about as much impact to the fight as they contributed.
4) Stop saying "overwhelmed". That never happened. There was never an indicator that he was. Not one.
Calling BS on "sizing up opponent"???? Are you serious???? This is proof that you don't know a damned thing about fighting. Fighters size up their opponents all the time. In boxing, many fighters (including the best ones, especially the best ones) size up their opponents the first few -rounds- to determine, range, speed difference, timing, style (as opponents tend to make changes to their style every fight) and how well they defend or take a punch. This is on TOP of the months (for pro fights) they have studying every fight said opponent has done reviewing tapes and getting sparring partners with similar qualities. And they STILL take a few rounds to size each other up. Take some time and watch a few boxing matches on TV, I'm sure it'll open your mind.
Windu had seconds to figure out how to take on his opponent, fighting defensively was a good way to size him up and when he finally took his measure and when Sid's offense lost some steam, he parried, countered, tied him up and told him to his face "imma keel you, beetch!". The "oh sh!t" look on Palpy told the whole story.
And again, I already countered the "he had his saber to your chest" argument. Give me a rebuttal or stop using it, it's ignorant.
5) From your above posts, I can conclude that you have no knowledge of fighting. Even basic spectator-level knowledge (in this day and age, how is that even possible??). Thus, your analysis is worthless/meaningless/garbage. No offense.
6) You say "ok" but re-use the very same argument that I countered in argument (4). Please reread your arguments next time and edit if one of your arguments got addressed in a later point.
7) Burden is on you to prove help was effective. From my standpoint, they may as well have been air/furniture (see my debate with DT on why).
8) I don't know what you're talking about. Windu beat Sids in saber combat. Sids then used his lightning on Windu and got it deflected back to his face. I would call that force usage, wouldn't you? The battle was completely conclusive as that we were able to gauge how well Windu would do in saber combat and vs Sid's force powers. Tho I will admit Sids gave him an extremely hard time with his lightning, but still he threw it right back in Sid's face and disfigured him badly.
9) Until you can provide movie/tv reference to Vapaad, it is inadmissible in this forum as per rules and mod ruling. Next.
10) See above. No boost til you can reference it in the movie/tv series.
Yes, Yoda did disarm Sids. But he got disarmed himself. He also failed to capitalize on his small advantage and ended up drawing the fight. A momentary advantage in a fight is meaningless. What matters is the end result. Was the opponent defeated? Did you do damage?
Yoda did match Sid's force powers but did no damage whatsoever. Windu not only disarmed Sids but put him in a helpless position. Windu not only defended against Sid's force powers but threw it back into his face so hard, he was permanently disfigured by the feedback and was cooked medium rare.
There is no question who did better here.
1. I have seen the mod ruling on this one. GG.
2. https://youtu.be/YBLcxXR1PMw you're saying Windu competed with Sidious by his own skill without any boost, then tell me why at 0:42 he kills one of the Jedi and mace not lift a finger, if he was right next to him. That either says that Sidious was to fast for him to react, or he just wanted to let his teammate die for no apparent reason. 1:00-1:06 Sidious has him on his back foot, overwhelming him, then 1:06-1:08 Sidious flat out has his saber 1 inch away from Windu's chest and stays there for 2-3 seconds, but doesn't move, then Windu fights as his equal throughout the rest of the battle. You honestly think that Windu can go from complete loser to equals and putting Sidious on his butt, out of no where. A boost had to have occurred for him to do that. You don't just magically come out of no where and fight as someone's equal out of no where.
3. So he brings these three masters so they can get in his way. He brings the masters along, to help arrest him. Sidious kills them in a very short time. Sidious kills kolar first. We see Windu was right next to kolar. If he was greater or equal to Sidious just on his own skill, then why didn't he react when kolar was killed? This can again mean 2 things. Sidious was to fast for him to react, or Windu just let his partner die. So basically I'm saying they gave him time to get ready, as when he killed kolar Windu didn't react, right. We didn't see him react until he came to him and Fisto, and then Sidious killed Fisto, so even the combined might of Fisto and Windu couldn't save Fisto.
4) You saying he wasn't getting overwhelmed, doesn't change the fact he was. He clearly shows that he is being overwhelmed and then Sidious precedes to hold a blade to his chest and not kill him even though he could have as seen in the movie.
I don't know anything about fighting? I ask again, why would Windu need to size him up, after he just saw his 3 comrades, all three on the Jedi council, one of which who defeated the infamous Jedi hunter Grevious, all of which Windu thought were capable enough to do the task of arresting him, but look he just took them out in 10 seconds, without using the force. Not only that he fought you to a point he had a saber to his chest and didn't take the killing blow. So no the size up thing is just an excuse for you to use.
Again he wouldn't need to to size him up due to just seeing all your comrades taken down in 10 seconds.
Countered it? I'm pretty sure having a saber to someone's chest, and just standing there, seems pretty ominous. Don't you.
5) Well considering I've never been one for fighting, I've never even seen wrestling, boxing, any of that so yea. However you don't need any of that to know how to judge a Star Wars battle. Let me ask you a question, can you extend your arm as long as a lightsaber. Can you spin your arm like a lightsaber? While you may have fighting experience, which is useful you don't need to have any to judge this fight.
7) explained above.
8) The lightning part is irrelevant. We are discussing the saber fight. Both Yoda and Windu disamred Sidious. However my point is Vaapad if used, in any way shape or form, boosted him even a tiny bit. That right there shows he wasn't at natural level. He was at an elevated level. Yoda wasn't. That's the point here.
9) Look above.
10) Look above.
Not saying one did better than the other or anything like that. I'm debating the lightsaber duel.
5) Well considering I've never been one for fighting, I've never even seen wrestling, boxing, any of that so yea. However you don't need any of that to know how to judge a Star Wars battle. Let me ask you a question, can you extend your arm as long as a lightsaber. Can you spin your arm like a lightsaber? While you may have fighting experience, which is useful you don't need to have any to judge this fight. "
Not things are becoming clear
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
1. I have seen the mod ruling on this one. GG.2. https://youtu.be/YBLcxXR1PMw you're saying Windu competed with Sidious by his own skill without any boost, then tell me why at 0:42 he kills one of the Jedi and mace not lift a finger, if he was right next to him. That either says that Sidious was to fast for him to react, or he just wanted to let his teammate die for no apparent reason. 1:00-1:06 Sidious has him on his back foot, overwhelming him, then 1:06-1:08 Sidious flat out has his saber 1 inch away from Windu's chest and stays there for 2-3 seconds, but doesn't move, then Windu fights as his equal throughout the rest of the battle. You honestly think that Windu can go from complete loser to equals and putting Sidious on his butt, out of no where. A boost had to have occurred for him to do that. You don't just magically come out of no where and fight as someone's equal out of no where.
3. So he brings these three masters so they can get in his way. He brings the masters along, to help arrest him. Sidious kills them in a very short time. Sidious kills kolar first. We see Windu was right next to kolar. If he was greater or equal to Sidious just on his own skill, then why didn't he react when kolar was killed? This can again mean 2 things. Sidious was to fast for him to react, or Windu just let his partner die. So basically I'm saying they gave him time to get ready, as when he killed kolar Windu didn't react, right. We didn't see him react until he came to him and Fisto, and then Sidious killed Fisto, so even the combined might of Fisto and Windu couldn't save Fisto.
4) You saying he wasn't getting overwhelmed, doesn't change the fact he was. He clearly shows that he is being overwhelmed and then Sidious precedes to hold a blade to his chest and not kill him even though he could have as seen in the movie.
I don't know anything about fighting? I ask again, why would Windu need to size him up, after he just saw his 3 comrades, all three on the Jedi council, one of which who defeated the infamous Jedi hunter Grevious, all of which Windu thought were capable enough to do the task of arresting him, but look he just took them out in 10 seconds, without using the force. Not only that he fought you to a point he had a saber to his chest and didn't take the killing blow. So no the size up thing is just an excuse for you to use.
Again he wouldn't need to to size him up due to just seeing all your comrades taken down in 10 seconds.
Countered it? I'm pretty sure having a saber to someone's chest, and just standing there, seems pretty ominous. Don't you.
5) Well considering I've never been one for fighting, I've never even seen wrestling, boxing, any of that so yea. However you don't need any of that to know how to judge a Star Wars battle. Let me ask you a question, can you extend your arm as long as a lightsaber. Can you spin your arm like a lightsaber? While you may have fighting experience, which is useful you don't need to have any to judge this fight.
7) explained above.
8) The lightning part is irrelevant. We are discussing the saber fight. Both Yoda and Windu disamred Sidious. However my point is Vaapad if used, in any way shape or form, boosted him even a tiny bit. That right there shows he wasn't at natural level. He was at an elevated level. Yoda wasn't. That's the point here.
9) Look above.
10) Look above.
Not saying one did better than the other or anything like that. I'm debating the lightsaber duel.
1. Ok then.
2. Honestly? Because choreography sucks and it's like those chinese movies where one guy runs in the middle and beats ppl up and everyone hangs back while he takes em on one by one. If you want a movie canon justification for me then the first thing I would like to say is that anything I offer would be speculation.
I can say that this would "prove" that they got in his way and he really couldn't attack with them tied up with the opponent in front of him. But that would be disingenuous as I know the TRUTH is just that the choreography sucked.
However, everything you posted is speculation as well.
3. Like I said, the choreography at that point was shoddy. But if we were to accept what we see in the movies as canon fact, I would speculate that it is because they taken out too fast. Windu, would naturally trust his companions to defend himself and would prioritize protecting himself as his opponent is pretty dangerous and him protecting them as well as himself could get him killed along with them. They knew the risks, after all. The play was tactically sound. Again, this goes back to my "got in his way" line of logic.
Again, all this (as well as your theory) is just that, speculation.
Also, Windu reacted before Sids even started to engage the other Jedi, as per (0:41), he took a defensive stance. So your assertion that he was unable to react is false and he needed time to get ready, was false.
And I already explained why "sizing up" is just more than realizing someone is dangerous. Sizing up is about determining how to approach the fight itself. Why are you ignoring what I already posted?
4. Burden of proof is on you to prove that he was getting overwhelmed. There was nothing in the scene that showed that he was and YOU need to identify the factors on why you think he was being overwhelmed.
I already explained why fighting defensively does not mean one is getting overwhelmed.
It is a fact that "sizing up" isn't just about realizing your opponent is dangerous (that would be the least of the reasons why one would do it). It's about determining an opponent's speed, timing, reach, etc., all contributory to coming up with the proper tactic/strategy in defeating him.
Seriously, I mad a comment about how fighters do this all the time even when they've been studying their opponent for months via tapes/videos. Did you just ignore my point altogether?
I already explained the reasons why he was fighting defensively and it is corroborated by the flow of the fight.
I already explained that Sids pointing the saber at Windu's chest wasn't Windu being helpless at all. I'm going to repost my point and hopefully this time you'd read it and try to understand it:
Originally posted by Nibedicus
4) You've never taken any fighting sports have you? Me? 2 years of boxing, 6 years of various martial arts (combined, I dabbled a lot, my father was very much into self defense). This position at 1:06 is what we call a "neutral" position. Notice 2 things:1) Sids had his arm fully extended.
2) Mace had his full footing and had a lot of room to back out/sidestep and was balanced and fully prepared.This tells you that Mace was outside Sid's direct range of attack (without needing to take a step). And if Sids attacked, he would need to take a step forward (to put Mace back into range) w/c would allow Mace to sidestepped/back up/parry and counter. Anyone with any boxing knowledge would know this. I ask you to ask anyone if you don't believe me. Funny thing is, he actually DID take a step forward and Windu actually DID counter by tying up his hands (1:08-1:10). Seriously, the "oh shit!" look on Sid's face at 1:09 and the "Imma fukk you up, beetch!" look on Mace's face at 1:11 should tell you who actually won that exchange.
Seriously, take some boxing, take the same position (arm extended to max range vs prepared opponent) against any competent opponent and see if that position was in any way advantageous.
5. Actually, you do. There are many fundamental basics in fighting (such as stance, footwork, attack and defense as well as basic tactics, positioning) many that tells you the overall tone of a fight. Basic knowledge of this helps one analyze a fight and how its flow is going. You appear to lack even basic knowledge of this at all.... making your analysis worthless.
Oh, and I didn't only take boxing, I also took arnis (I think you'd know about it as Eskrima or Kali) in high school. Stick fighting that is used a lot in hollywood for knife or shortsword fighting choreography. Over here, it's our PE for Junior and Senior year. At the very least, I know the basics of weapons fighting. It might even be used in saber fighting as some moves are similar to arnis (especially 2-sword fighting).
Although, you're right, it really shouldn't take any deep understanding of fighting to understand how movie fights go. But your opinions on how the fight went is just so out there, I actually need to explain how badly they don't make sense not only in the light of what they were explicitly telling you in the movie, but in the light of how fighting actually works.
6), 7) Nope.
8), 9), 10) The lightning part is very much relevant, as you claimed:
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
When I say all out, I mean both saber and force are used.
Well, Sids used the force and he used saber. That is, by your definition, "all out".
Vapaad is inadmissible unless you can find it referenced in either the movie/tv series. So, as per forum rules, your whole Vapaad argument falls apart.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Yoda did match Sid's force powers but did no damage whatsoever. Windu not only disarmed Sids but put him in a helpless position. Windu not only defended against Sid's force powers but threw it back into his face so hard, he was permanently disfigured by the feedback and was cooked medium rare.There is no question who did better here.
Again what are you getting at here? At least Quanchi outright states Windu > Yoda/Sidious.
You seem to be saying everything proves he did the best, but you won't make the point of your argument clear. So make it clear now. Are you claiming Windu > Sidious/Yoda?
If not, then what exactly is the point of your argument. And quit beating around the bush.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
By "enough" evidence... what are you referring to?
I said Enough Material.
First TCW makes it perfectly clear the same combatants will fight more than once and get different results. That's because it's not only "styles that make fights" which is what you're always claiming, but "Environments" and "Peak performances" and "contextual factors even small ones leading to all sort of different results."
Next we don't need Lucas's comments to see Sidious was pretending to be weak, because it's perfectly clear in the scene. He just confirmed what most people already strongly suspected from the way the scene was directed.
So you have Mace beginning the fight with aid from 3 other Jedi, and you have the fight ending with Anakin entering and Sidious pretending to be weak.
So How anyone can compare that to a 1 v 1 of Yoda vs Sidious in an open environment where it was Force Powers that determined the fight, is beyond me. Because All the different fights make it perfectly clear you can't judge 1 fight like that, especially with the number of factors involved, and say that's it, that's what would happen every time.
Then there's the countless statements in the Prequels making it clear Yoda is the no.1 guy, the number 1 threat to the Sith. Not Mace.
So you guys(except Quanchi whose a confirmed Troll and lost cause) need to get this through your heads: Yoda is more Powerful than Mace. As is Sidious.
If you agree with this, then stop arguing to death that Mace Did Better against the Emperor than Yoda with Zero Factors involved, as if implying he's better than Yoda. If you don't agree with that, then bring proof that Mace is better than Yoda/Sidious to back up the One Contextual Fight, as it contradicts Everything we Know in the films. And One Off wins clearly happen all the time in TCW. Heck Grievous has beaten Kenobi ONCE.
What the Mace vs Sidious fight did prove however, which is what you guys should be arguing, is that he only needs a few small advantages/factors and he can come out on top against Yoda/Sidious level combatants, which shows just how good he is.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
1. Ok then.2. Honestly? Because choreography sucks and it's like those chinese movies where one guy runs in the middle and beats ppl up and everyone hangs back while he takes em on one by one. If you want a movie canon justification for me then the first thing I would like to say is that anything I offer would be speculation.
I can say that this would "prove" that they got in his way and he really couldn't attack with them tied up with the opponent in front of him. But that would be disingenuous as I know the TRUTH is just that the choreography sucked.
However, everything you posted is speculation as well.
3. Like I said, the choreography at that point was shoddy. But if we were to accept what we see in the movies as canon fact, I would speculate that it is because they taken out too fast. Windu, would naturally trust his companions to defend himself and would prioritize protecting himself as his opponent is pretty dangerous and him protecting them as well as himself could get him killed along with them. They knew the risks, after all. The play was tactically sound. Again, this goes back to my "got in his way" line of logic.
Again, all this (as well as your theory) is just that, speculation.
Also, Windu reacted before Sids even started to engage the other Jedi, as per (0:41), he took a defensive stance. So your assertion that he was unable to react is false and he needed time to get ready, was false.
And I already explained why "sizing up" is just more than realizing someone is dangerous. Sizing up is about determining how to approach the fight itself. Why are you ignoring what I already posted?
4. Burden of proof is on you to prove that he was getting overwhelmed. There was nothing in the scene that showed that he was and YOU need to identify the factors on why you think he was being overwhelmed.
I already explained why fighting defensively does not mean one is getting overwhelmed.
It is a fact that "sizing up" isn't just about realizing your opponent is dangerous (that would be the least of the reasons why one would do it). It's about determining an opponent's speed, timing, reach, etc., all contributory to coming up with the proper tactic/strategy in defeating him.
Seriously, I mad a comment about how fighters do this all the time even when they've been studying their opponent for months via tapes/videos. Did you just ignore my point altogether?
I already explained the reasons why he was fighting defensively and it is corroborated by the flow of the fight.
I already explained that Sids pointing the saber at Windu's chest wasn't Windu being helpless at all. I'm going to repost my point and hopefully this time you'd read it and try to understand it:
5. Actually, you do. There are many fundamental basics in fighting (such as stance, footwork, attack and defense as well as basic tactics, positioning) many that tells you the overall tone of a fight. Basic knowledge of this helps one analyze a fight and how its flow is going. You appear to lack even basic knowledge of this at all.... making your analysis worthless.
Oh, and I didn't only take boxing, I also took arnis (I think you'd know about it as Eskrima or Kali) in high school. Stick fighting that is used a lot in hollywood for knife or shortsword fighting choreography. Over here, it's our PE for Junior and Senior year. At the very least, I know the basics of weapons fighting. It might even be used in saber fighting as some moves are similar to arnis (especially 2-sword fighting).
Although, you're right, it really shouldn't take any deep understanding of fighting to understand how movie fights go. But your opinions on how the fight went is just so out there, I actually need to explain how badly they don't make sense not only in the light of what they were explicitly telling you in the movie, but in the light of how fighting actually works.
6), 7) Nope.
8), 9), 10) The lightning part is very much relevant, as you claimed:
Well, Sids used the force and he used saber. That is, by your definition, "all out".
Vapaad is inadmissible unless you can find it referenced in either the movie/tv series. So, as per forum rules, your whole Vapaad argument falls apart.
2) For this specific thing, lame excuse. If Windu were on his level then he woudl have reacted and at least end attempted to save kolar, but no he stands there and watches, as his entire team is taken down in 10 seconds. I'm not seeing how Windu is on his level. So does that mean you concede this?
3) I'm not sure how we proceed since you can't put forth any actual answer, and I can't do anything about that either. I understand your point and it's a good one, but why take any chances. This is the dark lord of the Sith, someone whose above count Dooku, a renowned swordsman whose bust is in the Jedi archives and was able to go toe to toe with Yoda and live, and take down Kenobi, and disarm Anakin on several occasions. Someone who did all of that I find it hard to beleive that he would expect them to just defend themselves no problem.
That would interest me, if the other masters didn't come into a defensive stance when they walked in. Then again why not help your comrades or even lift a finger? Why just stay there?
So Windu didn't get enough of his speed when he killed the three masters in 10 seconds?
4) Didn't I show you the comparison between Dooku and Windu, and there fight scenes? Shall I repost those?
I respect that. However again fighting defensively is one thing. Being overwhelmed is another. If that were the case than I would say that Obi wan and Dooku are overwhelmed when they aren't. Obi is a primalry defensive fighter, and Dooku has shown us that he uses his defense fairly often and gracefully.
2 points above.
And your reasons still don't answer the 3 Jedi masters dead in 10 seconds argument.
Did you see the scene. I get your point. Where they were positioned Mace was still not dead so he's out of range I get that part. However, this is the guy who can kill 3 Jedi masters in 10 seconds, run faster than qui Gon and Obi did in the phantom menace, match the whirlwind of destruction that is Yoda while in stationary position. He was 1 inch away. So even if he managed to sidestep Sidious woudl Pierce him straight or get some part of his body. Realisticly, come on, there is no way mace could have blocked, parried, or anything with the place his blade was, and distance form his chest the blade was, and the speed at which Sidious can move. Look at his movements throughout the fight, and ask yourself, could Windu realisticly parry, or sidestep that?
5) oh dear
7) oh dear
8.9.10 I'm referring to the saber battle for a sec. Answer me this. Did both of them disarm Sidious? Well I mean, it's not like Vaapad can be mentioned, since commentaries and novels aren't allowed so.
I give up. This is just no point. It's normally understood Vaapad is canon, and this is just I don't get it. It's understood Yoda is greater than Windu your asking me to prove something you yourself don't even doubt. You're taking away Vaapad even though it's an established thing. I give up.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Again what are you getting at here? At least Quanchi outright states Windu > Yoda/Sidious.You seem to be saying everything proves he did the best, but you won't make the point of your argument clear. So make it clear now. Are you claiming Windu > Sidious/Yoda?
If not, then what exactly is the point of your argument. And quit beating around the bush.
I said Enough Material.
First TCW makes it perfectly clear the same combatants will fight more than once and get different results. That's because it's not only "styles that make fights" which is what you're always claiming, but "Environments" and "Peak performances" and "contextual factors even small ones leading to all sort of different results."
Next we don't need Lucas's comments to see Sidious was pretending to be weak, because it's perfectly clear in the scene. He just confirmed what most people already strongly suspected from the way the scene was directed.
So you have Mace beginning the fight with aid from 3 other Jedi, and you have the fight ending with Anakin entering and Sidious pretending to be weak.
So How anyone can compare that to a 1 v 1 of Yoda vs Sidious in an open environment where it was Force Powers that determined the fight, is beyond me. Because All the different fights make it perfectly clear you can't judge 1 fight like that, especially with the number of factors involved, and say that's it, that's what would happen every time.
Then there's the countless statements in the Prequels making it clear Yoda is the no.1 guy, the number 1 threat to the Sith. Not Mace.
So you guys(except Quanchi whose a confirmed Troll and lost cause) need to get this through your heads: Yoda is more Powerful than Mace. As is Sidious.
If you agree with this, then stop arguing to death that Mace Did Better against the Emperor than Yoda with Zero Factors involved, as if implying he's better than Yoda. If you don't agree with that, then bring proof that Mace is better than Yoda/Sidious to back up the One Contextual Fight, as it contradicts Everything we Know in the films. And One Off wins clearly happen all the time in TCW. Heck Grievous has beaten Kenobi ONCE.
What the Mace vs Sidious fight did prove however, which is what you guys should be arguing, is that he only needs a few small advantages/factors and he can come out on top against Yoda/Sidious level combatants, which shows just how good he is.
Sorry bud, that's a big no on most of that.
Mace 100% did to better against Sids than Yoda did. That is indisputable really. The three Jedi there did make it any easier for Mace to not get his saber knocked from his hand with a lighting blast like it did Yoda. They also didn't help prevent Mace from getting Temp kO'd by another lighting blast... that never KO'd Mace.
The reality is, Mace simply did better. He had Sids in a position of extreme weakness, something Yoda could never produce. He also caused Sids more visible pain and damage. There can be no question who did better. That doesn't necessitate mace being above Yoda, I didn't make that claim, but he unquestionably did better.
Next, the commentary about feigning weakness has no real relevance. He was beaten, and beaten soundly in direct combat. Who cares if he tried to act weaker than he really was once he realized he couldn't continue his barrage. That's a big who cares. Lucas comments of how Mace overpowered Sids is vastly more important than he talking about Sids acting like he was spent when he wasn't.
More powerful doesn't mean better duelist anyways. Anakin is far more powerful than Kenobi yet he lost. Darth Thor's a troll who confuses greater power for greater combatant all the time. Even if someone is stronger than someone else that doesn't mean they can't be beaten or ko'd by a weaker opponent. Darth Thor's trollish ways won't ever change and he ignores canon all the time.
An expert swordsman with a grim nature, Mace kills Jango Fett in the Battle of Geonosis and defeats Darth Sidious in combat (until Anakin arrives…) — something that not even Yoda could accomplish.
http://www.starwars.com/news/the-starwars-com-10-best-jedi
This just confirms the obvious but he will dance away from Disney canon. He's a lost cause.
true enough whats been said above, if its strictly movie and tcw feats then there is no mention of Vaapad, meaning Mace got no boost, meaning Sidious had to be playing with Mace when he was able to cut down three Jedi before he could even properly react to Sidious' attacks.
Put that in line with Sids losing his saber right when Anakin walks in and feigning weakness explicitly after his lightning barrage its obvious he was playing Mace and Anakin to his own ends
Originally posted by relentless1Mace defeated him. Lucas agreed and he directed the scene. There's never been even the slightest proof he threw the fight and wanted his face scarred for life. Quit being idiotic.
true enough whats been said above, if its strictly movie and tcw feats then there is no mention of Vaapad, meaning Mace got no boost, meaning Sidious had to be playing with Mace when he was able to cut down three Jedi before he could even properly react to Sidious' attacks.Put that in line with Sids losing his saber right when Anakin walks in and feigning weakness explicitly after his lightning barrage its obvious he was playing Mace and Anakin to his own ends
Sidious screamed, you will die right after Anakin walked in. He only feigned weakness after mace sent back his lightning into his face because he needed help and was completely helpless to Windu. See what I say makes sense what you say is horseshit.
😂
Originally posted by Darth Thor
1) Again what are you getting at here? At least Quanchi outright states Windu > Yoda/Sidious.You seem to be saying everything proves he did the best, but you won't make the point of your argument clear. So make it clear now. Are you claiming Windu > Sidious/Yoda?
If not, then what exactly is the point of your argument. And quit beating around the bush.
I said Enough Material.
2) First TCW makes it perfectly clear the same combatants will fight more than once and get different results. That's because it's not only "styles that make fights" which is what you're always claiming, but "Environments" and "Peak performances" and "contextual factors even small ones leading to all sort of different results."
3) Next we don't need Lucas's comments to see Sidious was pretending to be weak, because it's perfectly clear in the scene. He just confirmed what most people already strongly suspected from the way the scene was directed.
So you have Mace beginning the fight with aid from 3 other Jedi, and you have the fight ending with Anakin entering and Sidious pretending to be weak.
4) So How anyone can compare that to a 1 v 1 of Yoda vs Sidious in an open environment where it was Force Powers that determined the fight, is beyond me. Because All the different fights make it perfectly clear you can't judge 1 fight like that, especially with the number of factors involved, and say that's it, that's what would happen every time.
5) Then there's the countless statements in the Prequels making it clear Yoda is the no.1 guy, the number 1 threat to the Sith. Not Mace.
6)So you guys(except Quanchi whose a confirmed Troll and lost cause) need to get this through your heads: Yoda is more Powerful than Mace. As is Sidious.
If you agree with this, then stop arguing to death that Mace Did Better against the Emperor than Yoda with Zero Factors involved, as if implying he's better than Yoda. If you don't agree with that, then bring proof that Mace is better than Yoda/Sidious to back up the One Contextual Fight, as it contradicts Everything we Know in the films. And One Off wins clearly happen all the time in TCW. Heck Grievous has beaten Kenobi ONCE.
What the Mace vs Sidious fight did prove however, which is what you guys should be arguing, is that he only needs a few small advantages/factors and he can come out on top against Yoda/Sidious level combatants, which shows just how good he is.
1) I was very clear with what my stance was. I have repeated it over and over.
-Sids did not throw the fight
-Sids lost to Mace
and more recently:
-Mace did better than Yoda in their actual fight against Sids
These stances are easily quantifiable and uses direct evidence with timestamps as proof. While I DO wish the debate to move forward, as long as the other side tries to create a false narrative to attempt and push their position, I will be there to disagree with it.
Once you guys concede to the above facts, I'm sure others can then move this debate forward as (strangely enough) having your positions on those matters unresolved is making this debate even more tedious than it already is.
2) Irrelevant to this discussion as that is not what I am arguing about.
3) The point he was "pretending" to be weak is supported by actual dialogue. It was at the end of the fight when he was already defeated. It was VERY specific as per dialogue. W/c I have provided timestamps for. The specific moment when he does this is very important as this determines if it was his primary plan all along at the very start of the fight (speculation, non sequitor, unsupported by proof, is a stupid/bad plan if you think about it) or just one of many plans on top of plans he had w/c was then dependent on what situation he found himself in (makes more sense, supported by dialogue timing, brilliant move on his part if true). Your subtle attempts to downplay Mace's win over Sids notwithstanding.
4) Not even debating these points yet. Stop bringing them up.
5) You know what would be nice? You posting clips and timestamps whenever you make claims like these. Yes, that would be very nice.
6) We're not at this point of the debate to be discussing this yet. First concession of the first 3 points above needs to be given to avoid a longer, more tedious (yet ultimately circular) debate (as we will just end up circling back to those 3 points and starting all over again).
Originally posted by relentless1
true enough whats been said above, if its strictly movie and tcw feats then there is no mention of Vaapad, meaning Mace got no boost, meaning Sidious had to be playing with Mace when he was able to cut down three Jedi before he could even properly react to Sidious' attacks.Put that in line with Sids losing his saber right when Anakin walks in and feigning weakness explicitly after his lightning barrage its obvious he was playing Mace and Anakin to his own ends
Leap of logic non sequitor speculation supported by no evidence whatsoever.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
2) For this specific thing, lame excuse. If Windu were on his level then he woudl have reacted and at least end attempted to save kolar, but no he stands there and watches, as his entire team is taken down in 10 seconds. I'm not seeing how Windu is on his level. So does that mean you concede this?3) I'm not sure how we proceed since you can't put forth any actual answer, and I can't do anything about that either. I understand your point and it's a good one, but why take any chances. This is the dark lord of the Sith, someone whose above count Dooku, a renowned swordsman whose bust is in the Jedi archives and was able to go toe to toe with Yoda and live, and take down Kenobi, and disarm Anakin on several occasions. Someone who did all of that I find it hard to beleive that he would expect them to just defend themselves no problem.
That would interest me, if the other masters didn't come into a defensive stance when they walked in. Then again why not help your comrades or even lift a finger? Why just stay there?
So Windu didn't get enough of his speed when he killed the three masters in 10 seconds?
4) Didn't I show you the comparison between Dooku and Windu, and there fight scenes? Shall I repost those?
I respect that. However again fighting defensively is one thing. Being overwhelmed is another. If that were the case than I would say that Obi wan and Dooku are overwhelmed when they aren't. Obi is a primalry defensive fighter, and Dooku has shown us that he uses his defense fairly often and gracefully.
2 points above.
And your reasons still don't answer the 3 Jedi masters dead in 10 seconds argument.
5) Did you see the scene. I get your point. Where they were positioned Mace was still not dead so he's out of range I get that part. However, this is the guy who can kill 3 Jedi masters in 10 seconds, run faster than qui Gon and Obi did in the phantom menace, match the whirlwind of destruction that is Yoda while in stationary position. He was 1 inch away. So even if he managed to sidestep Sidious woudl Pierce him straight or get some part of his body. Realisticly, come on, there is no way mace could have blocked, parried, or anything with the place his blade was, and distance form his chest the blade was, and the speed at which Sidious can move. Look at his movements throughout the fight, and ask yourself, could Windu realisticly parry, or sidestep that?
6) oh dear
7) oh dear
8.9.10 I'm referring to the saber battle for a sec. Answer me this. Did both of them disarm Sidious? Well I mean, it's not like Vaapad can be mentioned, since commentaries and novels aren't allowed so.
11) I give up. This is just no point. It's normally understood Vaapad is canon, and this is just I don't get it. It's understood Yoda is greater than Windu your asking me to prove something you yourself don't even doubt. You're taking away Vaapad even though it's an established thing. I give up.
2) Not an excuse, that is how the fight ran. Look at it again. And no, he wouldn't have reached the other Jedi. Again, trying to protect your companions against a peer swordsman can end up killing you as well.
3) What the heck are you talking about. I gave SPECIFIC answers in this post. Did you ignore all of them?
Why did the other Jedis die? Many possibilities:
a) They were in his way and he couldn't get to them in time (without risking himself) as they died so quickly.
b) He understood that they knew the risks, he understood that his opponent went on the offense and going on the offense at the same time would be very risky so he stood his ground and prepared to defend.
c) He also understood that protecting others in a fight to the death endangers yourself as well.
All speculation, of course. But they are ALL better explanations than your completely unsupported "overwhelm" theory.
4) I didn't see you post any fights that could be seen as a measurable comparison between Windu and Dooku. But if you did, sure, repost them (with clips and timestamps).
But if it was that irrelevant analysis about how Kenobi and Dooku fight "defensively", don't bother. Those were worthless analysis. How they fight has no bearing with the specific fight between Windu and Sids.
5) Oh but he did. Evidenced by (1:07-1:09), Sids DID attack from that position. Mace defended against it quite easily. How are you unable to see that part? I mean, seriously....
6) Oh yeah!
7) Oh yeah!
8,9,10) Meaningless criteria. Being disarmed does not make an opponent helpless for as long as they can still reposition themselves and fight. Yoda disarmed Sids but failed to take advantage. Windu disarmed Sids, knocked him on his ass and pretty much had him at his mercy.
At the end of the day "who did better?" is easily determined: Mace put Sids in a nigh-completely helpless position. Mace did far more visible damage.
This is a no brainer.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) I was very clear with what my stance was. I have repeated it over and over.
-Sids did not throw the fight
-Sids lost to Mace
and more recently:
-Mace did better than Yoda in their actual fight against SidsThese stances are easily quantifiable and uses direct evidence with timestamps as proof. While I DO wish the debate to move forward, as long as the other side tries to create a false narrative to attempt and push their position, I will be there to disagree with it.
Once you guys concede to the above facts, I'm sure others can then move this debate forward as (strangely enough) having your positions on those matters unresolved is making this debate even more tedious than it already is.
2) Irrelevant to this discussion as that is not what I am arguing about.
3) The point he was "pretending" to be weak is supported by actual dialogue. It was at the end of the fight when he was already defeated. It was VERY specific as per dialogue. W/c I have provided timestamps for. The specific moment when he does this is very important as this determines if it was his primary plan all along at the very start of the fight (speculation, non sequitor, unsupported by proof, is a stupid/bad plan if you think about it) or just one of many plans on top of plans he had w/c was then dependent on what situation he found himself in (makes more sense, supported by dialogue timing, brilliant move on his part if true). Your subtle attempts to downplay Mace's win over Sids notwithstanding.
4) Not even debating these points yet. Stop bringing them up.
5) You know what would be nice? You posting clips and timestamps whenever you make claims like these. Yes, that would be very nice.
6) We're not at this point of the debate to be discussing this yet. First concession of the first 3 points above needs to be given to avoid a longer, more tedious (yet ultimately circular) debate (as we will just end up circling back to those 3 points and starting all over again).
Firstly no there is no proof Sidious was already defeated once he started "pretending" to be weak. Because he could have carried on firing had he not "pretended." A Power Mace was clearly struggling with.
So it's a but funny you lecturing us on "conjecture" when you've just gone and turned pure speculation into fact.
Secondly there multiple lines in the Prequels claiming Yoda is the most powerful:
1)Obi-Wan to Qui-Gon in TPM "Not even Master Yoda has a Midi-Chlorian count that high," clearly implication Yoda has the highest Raw Power out of all the Jedi known to Obi-Wan. Not Windu.
2)Obi-Wan to Anakin AOTC "If you practiced your Saber skills as much as you did your wit you'd rival Master Yoda as a Swordsman"... Clear Implication- Yoda is the Best Jedi Swordsman Obi-Wan is aware of. Not Mace.
3) Palpatine to Anakin in AOTC "I see your becoming the most powerful of all the Jedi, even more powerful than Master Yoda".. This one can't be more clear. It's Yoda whose the Most Powerful Jedi, NOT Mace Windu.
4) Sidious to Yoda in ROTS "You will not stop me. Lord Vader will grow more powerful than either of us", Vader(The Chosen One) will grow More Powerful than the 2 Most Powerful Force users known- Yoda and Sidious.
Now since Out of Universe quotes are not allowed according to the rules, these will have to suffice and they're more than enough (Even Saber Prowess is mentioned in one of them). And the fact that they are repeated by both the Main Hero and the Main Villain of that Trilogy just makes them even more reliable.
So my main point which I specifically asked you not to beat around the bush and make your stance clear. Is Mace > Yoda/Sidious.
Because that's what your objective seems to be.
Answer the question, and then I'll know exactly what I'm arguing with you.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Sorry bud, that's a big no on most of that.
That's a big shame.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Mace 100% did to better against Sids than Yoda did. That is indisputable really.
In the "Saber" portion of the fight and in a very different fight, both contextually and environmentally, yes.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The three Jedi there did make it any easier for Mace to not get his saber knocked from his hand with a lighting blast like it did Yoda.
No the environment made those differences.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
They also didn't help prevent Mace from getting Temp kO'd by another lighting blast... that never KO'd Mace.
LOL Sidious was facing 4 JEDI with their Sabers out. And your saying that Made No Difference in Sidious Blasting and KOing 1 JEDI with his Saber NOT Ignited?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The reality is, Mace simply did better. He had Sids in a position of extreme weakness, something Yoda could never produce.
Now your claiming Yoda isn't even Capable of doing what Mace did?
KT I'm sorry bud but your way off. Waayyyyy Off.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
He also caused Sids more visible pain and damage.
Yeah he also redirected Sids Lightning without Screaming in Pain himself.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
There can be no question who did better. That doesn't necessitate mace being above Yoda, I didn't make that claim, but he unquestionably did better.
So I wonder why Mace did perform better then, if he's not actually better than Yoda? And is in fact his Inferior.
Could it be down to Contextual and Environmental factors?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Next, the commentary about feigning weakness has no real relevance.
Huh> Sidious Faking being weak doean't change Anything?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
He was beaten, and beaten soundly in direct combat.
How do you know he was Beaten, if he was pretending to be weak?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Who cares if he tried to act weaker than he really was once he realized he couldn't continue his barrage.
Now this your making up. There's no evidence anywhere that he couldn't continue his barrage. And since he stopped because he was pretending to be weak, there's no way to know what would have happened if he Did Not Pretend.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Lucas comments of how Mace overpowered Sids
In the Saber fight. No mention of him Overpowering Sidious in the FL Round.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
is vastly more important than he talking about Sids acting like he was spent when he wasn't.
I don't see how.
Originally posted by quanchi112
More powerful doesn't mean better duelist anyways. Anakin is far more powerful than Kenobi yet he lost. Darth Thor's a troll who confuses greater power for greater combatant all the time. Even if someone is stronger than someone else that doesn't mean they can't be beaten or ko'd by a weaker opponent. Darth Thor's trollish ways won't ever change and he ignores canon all the time.An expert swordsman with a grim nature, Mace kills Jango Fett in the Battle of Geonosis and defeats Darth Sidious in combat (until Anakin arrives…) — something that not even Yoda could accomplish.
http://www.starwars.com/news/the-st...om-10-best-jedi
This just confirms the obvious but he will dance away from Disney canon. He's a lost cause.
Why you posting Out of Film/Tv stuff when it's been declared by the Mod as not allowed? Anyway even that line says Mace beat Sidious UNTIL ANAKIN ARRIVES. So it's talking about the Saber portion of the fight, not the Lightning Exchange.
Kenobi beat Anakin Tactically. Because for the Less Powerful Combatant to beat the More Powerful one, there needs to be Contextual or Environmental Factors involved. Kenobi also trained Anakin, so has a natural Advantage over him anyway, which is a Clear Contextual Factor.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
1) Firstly no there is no proof Sidious was already defeated once he started "pretending" to be weak. Because he could have carried on firing had he not "pretended." A Power Mace was clearly struggling with.2) So it's a but funny you lecturing us on "conjecture" when you've just gone and turned pure speculation into fact.
3) Secondly there multiple lines in the Prequels claiming Yoda is the most powerful:
3.1)Obi-Wan to Qui-Gon in TPM "Not even Master Yoda has a Midi-Chlorian count that high," clearly implication Yoda has the highest Raw Power out of all the Jedi known to Obi-Wan. Not Windu.
3.2)Obi-Wan to Anakin AOTC "If you practiced your Saber skills as much as you did your wit you'd rival Master Yoda as a Swordsman"... Clear Implication- Yoda is the Best Jedi Swordsman Obi-Wan is aware of. Not Mace.
4.3) Palpatine to Anakin in AOTC "I see your becoming the most powerful of all the Jedi, even more powerful than Master Yoda".. This one can't be more clear. It's Yoda whose the Most Powerful Jedi, NOT Mace Windu.
4) Sidious to Yoda in ROTS "You will not stop me. Lord Vader will grow more powerful than either of us", Vader(The Chosen One) will grow More Powerful than the 2 Most Powerful Force users known- Yoda and Sidious.
Now since Out of Universe quotes are not allowed according to the rules, these will have to suffice and they're more than enough (Even Saber Prowess is mentioned in one of them). And the fact that they are repeated by both the Main Hero and the Main Villain of that Trilogy just makes them even more reliable.
5) So my main point which I specifically asked you not to beat around the bush and make your stance clear. Is Mace > Yoda/Sidious.
Because that's what your objective seems to be.
Answer the question, and then I'll know exactly what I'm arguing with you.
1) Of course there is absolutely proof that Sids was defeated.
-He was in a helpless position. Disarmed (2:01). On his back and at Mace's mercy. (2:04)
-His lightning attack proved ineffective and was reflected back at him. (2:59)
-He was suffering damage from his own attack (2:59-3:16) while his opponent was not. It doesn't take a genius to know that if your attack has your opponent taking no damage and while you are, that your attack is more of a detriment to you than him.
Now you need to prove that you have an argument that counters the above and supply proof. The only thing you have going for you is that he had some reserves left. But for as long as Mace had his saber, he couldn't really attack.
This has gone from using inadmissible proof to pure denial. Just literally pure denial.
2) Yes, conjecture is posting clips with timestamps with exact play-by-plays that ALL illustrate my point. While you have character statements and opinions. Essentially, nothing. But it seems that your "proof" is enough for you while the mountain of evidence I threw at you seems nothing but conjecture.
Nice.
3) Let me get this straight....
Me posting clips that show EXACTLY what happened in the fight, timestamp them and provide descriptions that is centered on what is actually happening EXACTLY as it is happening? = Conjecture.
BUT
midichlorian count = PROOF! YEAH!
Side comments = PROOFFFF!! YEAH!
FYI, midichlorian count describes how attuned you are with the force it doesn't show how strong you are in other aspects like saber skill and overall physicality. And everyone will agree that Yoda has the best force skills in the jedi order but that would be due to his "feats" (not his midi count).
But I will agree, I don't think anyone will argue that Yoda's skill with the force is top in the Jedi council. He has shown this via having the best force "feats" in the movies AND in the TV series. <--- maybe you should start with posting ACTUAL "feats" cuz character statements don't matter at all. Although, I don't think anyone was arguing his skills with the force here....
And a side comment that vaguely mentions ONE of the better swordsmen in the council (and where it doesn't really say anything at all), is just that, a vague side comment.
Can't believe you're using character statements as some type of proof. You know how bad that sounds? Character opinions at that.
Oh look Yoda says "at an end your rule is", maybe we should take it as some sort of indisputable proof. Cuz he def ended Sid's rule.
Oh wait. It didn't.
Better yet, let's take Sid's own words that YOU posted here:
"Lord Vader will grow more powerful than either of us." You know, the guy with the highest midi count evar!
Oh wait. He didn't.
Character statements are meaningless unless backed by "feats". They are opinions, they are all talk. The only thing that posting character statements/opinions prove is what the character's opinions are.
The sad thing is that you post character comments and opinions and feel like your proof is good and solid enough YET ignore ACTUAL showings with timestamps described EXACTLY as they happen.
Funny thing is, I don't disagree about Yoda's abilities. I just hate how you find certain proof "acceptable" and insulted that you would put your proof side by side with mine.
I would say double standards but that would be an understatement.
5) Are you freaking kidding me? YOU guys (relentless, Emp and you) bring in the false narratives of "Sids threw the fight" and "Yoda did as well as Mace". Not me. I didn't wanna even argue who was winning here, I just wanted to correct your misrepresentation of what happened so that the debate can flow using facts and not opinins. It is YOU (not just you, but you 3) that engaged me in this debate to try and push your false narrative down everyone's throats. It is YOU that used arguments and "proof" that broke the rules even though you were REPEATEDLY reasoned with and corrected with reasonable explanations/breakdowns of the rules. You repeatedly come here with double standards and meaningless speculation and just expect me to bend over and let you pass it off like some sort of
I respect EmpSids, at least he has kept his arguments fluid as the debate went on. You just planted your feet and won't even try to re-evaluate the evidence now that the conditions you were given in terms of proof have changed.
I have explained my position over and over and over. Yet you just ignore it as you do every reasonable thing throw your way.
Seriously.
Edit. You know what? I'll make a deal with you?
Stop saying Sids threw the fight (or that him faking weakness is the reason he lost). <---This is now baseless btw as we cannot use Lucas' comments now.
Stop saying that Yoda did as well as Mace in their fight with Sids.
Then this debate would be over. Done. Finito. This would prove my absolute intention, no?
But til then, I'll just keep coming back to correct you.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) Of course there is absolutely proof that Sids was defeated.
-He was in a helpless position. Disarmed (2:01). On his back and at Mace's mercy. (2:04)
-His lightning attack proved ineffective and was reflected back at him. (2:59)
-He was suffering damage from his own attack (2:59-3:16) while his opponent was not. It doesn't take a genius to know that if your attack has your opponent taking no damage and while you are, that your attack is more of a detriment to you than him.Now you need to prove that you have an argument that counters the above and supply proof. The only thing you have going for you is that he had some reserves left. But for as long as Mace had his saber, he couldn't really attack.
This has gone from using inadmissible proof to pure denial. Just literally pure denial.
First of all we've all seen the fight. Duh.
Posting a fight we've all seen claiming that's your evidence is a bit lame, when that's the fight we keep going over.
You claim Mace had Sidious completely at his mercy before the Lightning shots began. But did he? I guess Ventress had Obi-Wan completely at her mercy here then:
@1:37
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNiB1tk0wvo
Except she didn't. Because Obi-Wan still won that fight. Granted Sidious was on the floor, but then Obi-Wan couldn't simply shoot Force Lightning anytime he wanted either.
Next saying Sidious's Lightning proved ineffective against Mace just because he wasn't left with scars is pretty Retarded, considering how Mace was Screaming and Clearly Struggling to contain those Blasts.
I guess Palpatine's Lightning proved useless against Luke as well, since Luke was left with No scars. I guess it was useless against Yoda as well, because Yoda was left with no scare either.
And you keep talking about the damage Sidious took as if That's all that matters. Vader took a Lightsaber hit from Luke on the shoulder in ESB. Did that mean Vader was suddenly losing? No? Why? Because he could take it, despite his armour clearly having taken some damage.
So no I don't have to PROVE Anything at this point, Because You Haven't Proven anything substantial. Just taken the scene we've all seen, and we're all discussing, and made your own conclusions out of it. And Expect everyone else to ACCEPT YOUR Interpretation as Proof, despite many other things clearly going on in that scene.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
2) Yes, conjecture is posting clips with timestamps with exact play-by-plays that ALL illustrate my point. While you have character statements and opinions. Essentially, nothing. But it seems that your "proof" is enough for you while the mountain of evidence I threw at you seems nothing but conjecture.Nice.
See above. Your interpretation is full of conjecture. That because Sidious was "Visibly" damaged that automatically means he couldn't have carried on as long as Mace with the exchange.
Have you seen real fights before? You think the guy bleeding more is the one who will back down first? Or the guy with more bruises, or the guy just looking worse?
Astonishing you're actually presenting that as some kind of Actual Proof that Sidious would have backed down first. Especially when WE KNOW the kind of damage Sith Lords can take. From the Injuries Vader suffers later to Maul recovering from Bisecting.
Whilst the "damage" being done to Sidious didn't have him screaming, didn't even stop him talking, or heck EVEN SMILING!
Originally posted by Nibedicus
3) Let me get this straight....Me posting clips that show EXACTLY what happened in the fight, timestamp them and provide descriptions that is centered on what is actually happening EXACTLY as it is happening? = Conjecture.
BUT
midichlorian count = PROOF! YEAH!
Side comments = PROOFFFF!! YEAH!FYI, midichlorian count describes how attuned you are with the force it doesn't show how strong you are in other aspects like saber skill and overall physicality. And everyone will agree that Yoda has the best force skills in the jedi order but that would be due to his "feats" (not his midi count).
But I will agree, I don't think anyone will argue that Yoda's skill with the force is top in the Jedi council. He has shown this via having the best force "feats" in the movies AND in the TV series. <--- maybe you should start with posting ACTUAL "feats" cuz character statements don't matter at all. Although, I don't think anyone was arguing his skills with the force here....
Right so you to you it makes sense for you to present your own interpretation of a fight as FACT. But Actual FACTS told to us in the film like about the nature of Midi-Chlorians, are some kind of Conjecture.
Midi-Chlorian count determine one's Potential Force Power. The fact that we KNOW Yoda's is the highest, means the only way Mace could possibly be more Powerful than Yoda is if he either Yoda hadn't fulfilled his full potential, or Mace somehow was more experienced than the 870year old Jedi Master. Good luck proving that one.
And FYI, the Force is Used as much in Saber fights as it is in TK. It's just a different skill set. But considering Yoda's experience as a Teacher for Hundreds of years, you'd have to be Silly to claim Mace has Mastered one of the fundamental parts of Jedi Force training, to a better degree than Yoda.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
And a side comment that vaguely mentions ONE of the better swordsmen in the council (and where it doesn't really say anything at all), is just that, a vague side comment.Can't believe you're using character statements as some type of proof. You know how bad that sounds? Character opinions at that.
Oh look Yoda says "at an end your rule is", maybe we should take it as some sort of indisputable proof. Cuz he def ended Sid's rule.
Oh wait. It didn't.
Better yet, let's take Sid's own words that YOU posted here:
"Lord Vader will grow more powerful than either of us." You know, the guy with the highest midi count evar!
Oh wait. He didn't.
Character statements are meaningless unless backed by "feats". They are opinions, they are all talk. The only thing that posting character statements/opinions prove is what the character's opinions are.
The sad thing is that you post character comments and opinions and feel like your proof is good and solid enough YET ignore ACTUAL showings with timestamps described EXACTLY as they happen.
Funny thing is, I don't disagree about Yoda's abilities. I just hate how you find certain proof "acceptable" and insulted that you would put your proof side by side with mine.
I would say double standards but that would be an understatement.
So let's get this straight... You went to the Mod to make all Movie Commentary from the Movie audio commentary, through Source Books, and the Movie Novelisations (line edited by Lucas mind you), inadmissible as evidence... And now you want to write off the Massive Loads of Charater Accolades we're given IN the actual film.
If it was something said just Once I wouldn't bother. If it was something said Just by Sidious, then I also wouldn't bother with it. But it was a Point brought up again and again and again by both Obi-Wan and Palaptine. The Main Antagonist and Protagonist of the Trilogy. And it was something no one ever Objected to in the films! No, That is the movie simply establishing a rule of these films- that Yoda is the Most Powerful Combatant in the Jedi Order. Not Mace.
Also you're bringing examples up like Yoda saying "At an end your rule is" is pretty retarded, as that was Obviously a Threat, and one Palpatine straight away objected to.
Vader didn't become more Powerful than Yoda or Sidious because that was "A Predcition", and again One that Yoda straight away Objected to.
You need to differentiate between, Character Opinions, Prediction, Threats, and Characters Presenting Facts. Which is what I brought up (Especially in the Absence of Out of Universe Sources).
Otherwise you might as well just Ignore Everything said in the film. Palpatine said this Republic has stood for a Thousand Years- Oh we don't know that, because it's Palpatine's opinion! Anakin says "No one's ever Appointed to the Council without being appointed Master"= Yeah he's lying there too Obviously!
Guess what, Midi-Cholrians don't even exist! It's just the Jedi's opinion! LOL!
And yeah of course you'd feel insulted that YOUR Interpretation of the fight (which I've already broken down), isn't accepted as Fact whilst Established Truths given to us Over and over and Over in the films are.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
5) Are you freaking kidding me? YOU guys (relentless, Emp and you) bring in the false narratives of "Sids threw the fight" and "Yoda did as well as Mace". Not me. I didn't wanna even argue who was winning here, I just wanted to correct your misrepresentation of what happened so that the debate can flow using facts and not opinins. It is YOU (not just you, but you 3) that engaged me in this debate to try and push your false narrative down everyone's throats. It is YOU that used arguments and "proof" that broke the rules even though you were REPEATEDLY reasoned with and corrected with reasonable explanations/breakdowns of the rules. You repeatedly come here with double standards and meaningless speculation and just expect me to bend over and let you pass it off like some sort ofI respect EmpSids, at least he has kept his arguments fluid as the debate went on. You just planted your feet and won't even try to re-evaluate the evidence now that the conditions you were given in terms of proof have changed.
I have explained my position over and over and over. Yet you just ignore it as you do every reasonable thing throw your way.
Seriously.
Edit. You know what? I'll make a deal with you?
Stop saying Sids threw the fight (or that him faking weakness is the reason he lost). <---This is now baseless btw as we cannot use Lucas' comments now.
Stop saying that Yoda did as well as Mace in their fight with Sids.
Then this debate would be over. Done. Finito. This would prove my absolute intention, no?
But til then, I'll just keep coming back to correct you.
Firstly, I didn't say EITHER of the things your claiming I did.
I never claimed it's a Fact that Sidious threw the fight.
And the Yoda and Mace fights were COMPLETELY Different to Compare. It's Frankly Retarded to Compare them. And TCW Proves that. We've Had Grievous beating Kenobi ONE TIME. We've had Kenobi and Ventress losing to Maul and Opress one time, then another time Maul and Kenobi fighting to a Stalemate, then a Third time Kenobi actually Defeating Both Maul and Opress combined by himself!
That's because every fight has different factor involved.
Mace seems to have got a better result in the Saber fight, but that doesn't make him better than Yoda because it was a very different fight, starting in a different environment and with the 3 other Jedi.
I'm also claiming you can't say Mace "would have won" the FL exchange if Sidious wasn't pretending to be Weak. Because Sidious pretending is TOO BIG a Factor To Ignore. If the Novel was allowed, I'd say Sidious would definitely have won that. But without the novel, I'll leave it up in the air. But again to Completely Ignore that Huge Factor is Retarded.
Mace also didn't have to deal with the Full Force of Sidious's entire Force Arsenal like Yoda did- That's Direct TK AND Plenty of FL throughout the Fight, Not to mention All those frigging Senate Pods.
I'm saying that fight Mace has doesn't prove Mace > Sidious/Yoda. And he has already in fact been established as the SECOND Most Powerful Combatant in the Jedi Order AFTER Yoda. Which would also put him below Sidious.
And I see you spend this whole time trying to Prove Mace is > Yoda/Sidious, and yet still don't have the balls to make your stance clear.
You saying Mace > Yoda/Sidious or not?
Oh and don't expect my reply to your next response right away. Dealing with your trolling takes time, and I'm pretty busy. But I will respond to you a few more times before I've had enough of you repeating "BUT WE SAW MACE BEAT SIDIOUS" LOL