Windu & Yoda vs Tyranus & Sidious

Originally posted by Darth Thor
He won the Saber fight. You can't claim it's a Fact he won the Lightning Exchange when We Know Sidious was faking being weak. You can theorize yes. Otherwise you should call the guys at Lucasfilm "Sid Apologists" as well.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He did win the Lightning exchange because Palpatine was scarred while Windu was fine.

It never ended so you don't know. Could have lead to a Sidious/Yoda type Force explosion or anything. You just don't know.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He feigned weakness because he realized he couldn't kill Windu on his own which is why he went from you will die to Anakin help me. Use some damn common sense. 🤣

Speculation.

LMAO @ you lecturing me on common sense.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
It never ended so you don't know. Could have lead to a Sidious/Yoda type Force explosion or anything. You just don't know.

Speculation.

LMAO @ you lecturing me on common sense.

That's logical due to his words whereas your theory isn't logical based off his actions or words prior to feigning weakness. 😂

Originally posted by quanchi112
I know what I saw but you and es want to debate what ifs. That's always the sign of a weak debater. Argue what happened not what might have happened.

Except you are giving "what if's" since your claiming Mace would have won IF Sidious didn't fake being weak.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That's logical due to his words whereas your theory isn't logical based off his actions or words prior to feigning weakness. 😂

Ah now you want to take his words as facts, or enough evidence to make a reasonable conclusion out of but when he repeats over and over Yoda is the most powerful, then "it's a character statement and doesn't mean anything."

We didn't see their FL Exchange end, so we don't know. Deal with it.

What we do know is that Sidious is as Powerful as Yoda, and Yoda is more Powerful than Mace. Fact.

Mace < Sidious. They are not peers.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Except you are giving "what if's" since your claiming Mace would have won IF Sidious didn't fake being weak.

Ah now you want to take his words as facts, or enough evidence to make a reasonable conclusion out of but when he repeats over and over Yoda is the most powerful, then "it's a character statement and doesn't mean anything."

We didn't see their FL Exchange end, so we don't know. Deal with it.

What we do know is that Sidious is as Powerful as Yoda, and Yoda is more Powerful than Mace. Fact.

Mace < Sidious. They are not peers.

Yoda is more powerful but less powerful guys beat more powerful guys all the time, dummy. Your obsession with power while ignoring styles, advantages, speed, aggression, etc. shows you lack any real understanding of what a fight entails.

Windu won and Yoda lost. Yoda's power meant shit because he lost while Windu prevailed. Facts.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Windu did win already. I explained why it made sense to feign weakness to win over sympathy from Anakin.

Yep and it's YOUR speculation.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yoda is more powerful but less powerful guys beat more powerful guys all the time, dummy.

Only when there's contextual or environmental factors involved.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Your obsession with power while ignoring styles, advantages, speed, aggression, etc. shows you lack any real understanding of what a fight entails.

All advantages which belong to Yoda. Because he's More Powerful, and more Experienced.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Windu won and Yoda lost. Yoda's power meant shit because he lost while Windu prevailed. Facts.

Yoda's more Powerful than Windu. Sidious's more Powerful than Windu. Stop crying about it 😂

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yep and it's YOUR speculation.

Only when there's contextual or environmental factors involved.

All advantages which belong to Yoda. Because he's More Powerful, and more Experienced.

Yoda's more Powerful than Windu. Sidious's more Powerful than Windu. Stop crying about it 😂

Incorrect. Power is only one variable while you ignore the rest.

Incorrect. Those are only two variables as well. He's also well out of his prime and quite older and run down. Watch him walk for crying out loud.

I agree they are both more powerful but Windu won which completely destroys your theory of more power always winning. You just sank your own battleship.

Movie versions, team 1 wins.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That is the only logical assessment due to his previous words and actions.

In other words it's Speculation 😂

Originally posted by quanchi112
Incorrect. Power is only one variable while you ignore the rest.

Nope, on Neutral Ground without Contextual factors involved, the more Powerful Combatant wins. End of.

You Lose.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
In other words it's Speculation 😂

Nope, on Neutral Ground without Contextual factors involved, the more Powerful Combatant wins. End of.

You Lose.

No, that isn't proven at all. That doesn't take into account speed, skill, etc. you need to prove these ridiculous theories.

I won a long time ago.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
1) Hmm, so on your butt means there's nothing you can do right?

2) Except he DID do something from that position. He fired Force Lightning which held Windu's Saber back.

3) Just for the record examplpes of people on their butt and under someone Saber yet NOT defeated:

@2:37 (actually in a worse position), and @ 2:54

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xP3fI7yn5s

And here @1:18-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx4m6lvpgKY

And before you shout "BUT THEY HAD THEIR SABERS", you just claimed there's No Room for maneuvering out of that poisiton. These are also combatants with only equal or inferior TK to their opponents, unlike Palpatine who clearly has superior Force Powers.

4) Not to mention the evidence suggests he had a 2nd Saber on him.

But even for arguments sake let's say his 2nd Saber wasn't on him when he knew he had multiple Jedi coming to arrest/kill him...

5) Then that would of course be another of multiple contextual factors that lead to Mace coming out on top in that particular fight.

6) Addressed.

7) Which is YOUR Opinion since we Never Saw the conclusion of their FL Exchange, as Palpatine STOPPED it, Faking being weak.

8) Point was "NO SCARS" does not mean your "fine."

9) And again, Yoda and Sidious Finished their FL exchange. Mace and Palpatine DID NOT.

10) I find it amusing you are honestly arguing that "Screaming in Pain" means the combatant is quite comfortable and can carry on all day 😂

11) Yeah except usually when somebody gets stabbed they're not in a position to SMILE as soon as the something they like happens.

12) You tell me, you stab a guy and he gets the knife out smiling, and you yourself are screaming in pain from a slash you got, you'd be comfortable you're going to get out of that situation on top? LOL

13) First of, No. All you had to do was go back to see how Our Debate began.

It began on Page 6, where I asserted that Mace is NOT a Peer of Sidious and is in fact below him, no matter what happened in that particular fight.

And everything I've been arguing since has been in defense of that idea.

Next I've since that very page asserted my belief that Mace did Win the Saber portion of the fight, but the FL Exchange is up in the air. With the novel included I'm of the opinion Sidious "would have won". With the novel Not Included, I'll just leave it as up in the air.

However Fact Is we did not see the end of that exchange due to the Anakin factor, and Sidious preferring to use the situation to sway Anakin onto his side.

14) So let's get this straight, there's no "Evidence" of the End result of the FL Exchange either way, because it Never Happened. All that's clear is both sides were struggling, with one side shouting in pain more, but with no visible damage and the other side getting scarred up.

LOL So you dismiss Shouting in Pain, but take "Breathing" into account. Brilliant. Let me know how Palpatine's breathing after you timestamp that.

15) Already showed it wasn't necessarily an unwinnable position. Of course I won't lie and say it was a normal or good position either. But the "possibility" of a win, or a stalemate, was definitely there.

16) Kind of an important factor.

17) Just the fact that Sidious Wasn't Screaming suggests he wasn't finding the exchange as difficult as you let on. Scarring alone is meaningless to the fight, It's about How much Pain he can handle.

18) Mace screaming suggests Pain on Mace's side as well. Because Not All Pain is Visible.

19) Oh excuse me for bringing up Facts about the kind of Punishment Weaker Sith can take, let alone the Ultimate Sith Master. Of course Palpatine can take more punishment than his much weaker and less experienced Sith Apprentices.

20) Feats are Exchangeable to that extent. For example, we see the Super Sprint Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon do at the beginning of TPM. To say Yoda can't sprint that fast because we've not seen it would be Pretty Retarded.

21) Yes we should Ignore the Plot, the Story, the Accolades given, and just go by "TIME STAMPS" LMAO

22) FYI, Windu was Only Advancing as Palpatine began faking his weakness.

23) It means Yoda is inherently the more force user powerful combatant. We already know he's the more experienced force user and combatant.

24) But yes again, I'm sure bringing up evidences, accolades, story, plot and context means nothing. All that matters is THE TIMESTAMPS!

25) Not when those character statements are constantly repeated by different people. That's just establishing factual information in the Universe. But of course doesn't compare to TIME STAMPS.

26) Feats alone can actually be misleading, as I've already proven with the Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan super sprint.

27) Fights and TIME STAMPS alone can also be misleading due to differing contexts of each fight, as proven by Kenobi beating Maul+Opress combined. But that's especially so when considering Character Motivations in a scene where a Master Manipulator is clearly trying to manipulate some DURING a fight. The result of That Particular scene could easily be considered as subjective as character statements.

28) Accolades and established rules/facts within a Universe are also evidences.

29) And no I haven't rejected any "evidence." Problem is what your calling Evidence is simply Your Own interpretation of a scene, with assumptions attached.

30) And even in fights Characters can be manipulating each other, and we don't know what their intentions are.

So going by that, you can't include any of the film as evidence except for the opening crawl.

31) So AGAIN when a statement is made over and over again, not objected by anyone, and told to us by different characters, it's safe to take that as an established fact in the Universe.

What does Obi-Wan not know who Mace is? If Mace was the best Jedi Swordsman do you not think he would have brought up his name?

You think Obi-Wan just mentioned Any Good Jedi Swordsman in that scene? LOL

gain, the idea that Yoda is the Best Jedi Combatant, is an idea repeated by Both Obi-Wan and Palpatine again and again. It's clearly the movies establishing a Fact known to everyone in the Universe.

We don't know what cells they were looking at. The whole Midi-Chlorians connecting people to the Force could be a completely made up thing by the Jedi (according to your own rules of what's accepted as evidence and what's not).

But The FACT, that it's something that's repeated again and again throughout the saga with no one objecting to the notion, is what establishes it as an IN UNIVERSE FACT.

32) And Only one of us has given evidence from throughout the films, and other fights, and established facts and rules in the SW Movies and Tv series, to make his argument.

Whilst the other one thinks HIS TIME STAMPS Proves all.

It's a Wonder that this is the most debated result of all the fights in Star Wars, and that even the people at Lucasfilm state the end result of that fight is a deabateable one, when all they needed was Nibedicus's TIMESTAMPS to end it. LMAO

1) I actually had a list that pointed out more than just him being "on his butt". Selective reading?

2) Yes. And it failed and did more damage to him than his opponent. Why do you keep ignoring this fact?

3) Except that they were NOT in the same position. NOT even the same person ("feats" are not interchangeable. Debating 101) and the FACT that they DID escape actually proves that said positions doesn't make one as helpless as you're trying to make it seem.

This actually helps my argument.

4) Onus on you to prove that he did. I say he didn't have it. I don't have to prove a negative.

5) Irrelevant. The debate is not about contextual factors that led to the win. The debate is about whether Mace won or not and if Sids threw the fight or not (and since you already admitted about the saber battle so this whole "contextual" BS is meaningless. Since any "contextual factors" that could be contributed by the 3 useless masters would only apply to that part of the fight).

6) Not really. 😂

7) Moving the goalposts now? Their FL exchange ended when he stopped it, stop making up false criteria. Geez.

8) He was undamaged unless you can prove he was. Onus on you. Visual evidence (3:24) would disagree with you.

9) Irrelevant to my argument. Yoda and Sids ending their force battle has no bearing on whether Mace beat Sids or if Sids threw the fight or not or if Yoda did as well as Mace.

10) You say "screaming in pain", I say "giving his all and struggling (and winning)". Both conjecture. End of the day, the only provable fact is that the exchange ended up worse for Palpatine than Windu (as evidenced by my previous posts).

11) This is such a dumb/irrelevant comment that I don't know if I should even dignify it with a response. Are you implying that Sids was better off than Mace in their exchange? Because he was gloating after Anakin disarmed Mace? Seriously?

12) False analogy. A better one would be: "I was screaming because I was struggling against him (and winning) with the knife. I, however, didn't get stabbed, he did." <---- more accurate.

13) Actually (other than saying "Team 1" in page 1, w/c was a simple opinion based on no argument/evidence), this is my first real post in this thread:

Originally posted by Nibedicus
My interpretation of some of the things being argued here from watching the movie?

Yoda did not hold back against Dooku. They fought, Dooku knew he was losing ground, so he retreated.

Windu beat Sidious. Sidious did not hold back. He is not a moron, he's not about to have a jedi disarm him when he knows full well he could get killed if he did. He had plans on top of plans, however. Had he beat Windu, he would have turned Anakin some other way (probably from a position of strength). He lost, so he turned Anakin that way. He may well have had a 2nd saber, but I am wagering to bet that the surest way to get killed would be to draw on a peer swordsman who has an overwhelming positional advantage. He knew that, so he played possum instead.

This is my take. All opinions tho, so take of it what you will.

Page 6 was about me disagreeing with YOUR interpretation of what Lucas said about Yoda/Mace/Sids (now inadmissible, thus irrelevant). And me arguing about commentaries being inadmissible. And me vaguely commenting about Windu only needing his saber "skills" to defend against Sid's force powers.

I then debated against relentless about his use of conjecture as evidence and how it didn't stack up to the evidence saying otherwise. You then defended him. And then I said this:

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Sure, he was struggling, it's there on screen for all to see.

Did he struggle enough for ppl to throw around crazy notions like "Sids could have beat Mace with lightning at any time by bending his light saber"?

No. Not really.

Edit. As for Sid's lightning being "beyond Mace's abilities", sure didn't look like it when he deflected Sid's lightning back to his face. Unless you think Sids allowed himself to be cooked medium well on purpose. Essentially: prove it.

In which case we then engaged on a multi-paragraph debate of you insisting that the novel is admissible evidence in this forum. With like this:

Originally posted by Darth Thor
He did the same in the novel. But it was beyond Mace to keep it up.

Proof's in the novel.

And let's not forget this was Sidious shooting Lightning from a position of being on his Ass and right under Mace's blade.

So yes Sidious definitely could have won by going all out with his Force Powers. And there's even the possibility Sidious would win a Saber rematch.

You seem to have a skewed memory of how this debate began and how it escalated. That is the problem with confirmation bias. Everything suddenly becomes proof for your argument. Even tho they aren't.

14) Bull. Nice attempt at moving the goalposts tho. But the exchange ended when he stopped the barrage (duh). Then we assess who won based on the results. An exchange doesn't have to reach an ultimate conclusion for us to determine that one had got the better of it over the other (thus "winning"😉. The "motivation" behind him stopping his barrage is speculative (as you have no proof of why he did) and irrelevant. He stopped the barrage and there was no indicator that he'd have won it had he continued.

Injury would indicate damage. Heavy/labored breathing hard would indicate being tired (I will admit that Windu did need to catch his breath for about 1 second at 3:29) . The fact he was neither points to him neither being damage nor exhausted. Don't you know how indicators as evidence work?

15) Your entire argument comes down to an old man on his back who was being damaged by his own attack outlasting the younger (also powerful, arguably peer-level) jedi who was struggling but was not getting tired nor being damaged.

Not even just damaged. The exchange MELTED HIS FACE to the point that it ended up looking like he was planning to give Snow White a poisoned apple.

It is almost unbelievable that you cannot see the foolishness of your position.

You are implying that I am being dismissive of Sid's ability to ignore pain/damage and get out of the situation when I think you are the one completely downplaying Windu's ability to press the HUGE advantage he had at the time. All because you feel that Sids pretended to be weak and allowed himself to lose because of no proof whatsoever.

16) You imply that he lost (but could have won) because he pretended to be weak. I say he pretended to be weak because he was losing (to get pity/help out of Anakin). Your assertion requires that he be stupidly taking risks with his life (what if Anakin didn't help him or was too slow/indecisive?)

17) Are you kidding me? DAMAGE in a fight PROVES that someone is getting DAMAGED. If you don't think that DAMAGE is relevant in a fight, then I think it's YOU that's never been in one.

18) Except you have to PROVE, yes PROVE that there was damage/injury on Windu. I say no injury due to clips/timestamps. Prove otherwise or concede the fact that you are just speculating.

19) ORLY? Please show me a clip of Sidius getting burned like Anakin or getting cut in half like Maul. Because, at this point, this is all BS.

20) No they are not. You do not know how debating or proof works. Force powers is one thing. Sids, however, has NO "feats" that indicate that he would survive getting cut in half like Maul. This is ridiculous. Do you want a mod ruling about interchanging "feats" now?

21) Yes. Timestamped clips as evidence is what is called "direct evidence". Characters giving QUANTIFIABLE statements (like explaining how midichlorians work as exactly how they work) is called "direct evidence". Vague character accolades/opinions are what is called "circumstantial evidence" (very weak one at that). Maybe you should google a bit and learn how proof works.

Wait. Mace said quantifiable and unambiguous statements like: "You have lost" at (2:30) or "I'm going to end this once and for all" (3:26) yet you seem to be disregarding all this and yet seem to be extremely insistent with vague non-conclusive statements from Obi Wan as long as they hint at your own argument? Double standards? Biased idea of proof?

22) The problem with confirmation bias is that everything starts to look like proof even tho it is not.

Sids blasted Mace at (2:36), Mace started advancing at (2:40) when he was slowly pushing himself forward. 4 seconds into the barrage. This whole assertion is pure bull.

You have no proof that Sids even started faking his weakness at this point at all. If you have proof that he started "faking" his weakness prior to (2:40), please provide timestamps. Otherwise, I'll just call BS on this entire assertion.

The fight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBLcxXR1PMw

23) You are basically stating things that I did not dispute.

This is not relevant to my points at all.... (My points being: Mace won the fight/Sids did not throw the fight/Mace did better than Yoda)

24) See (21)

25) You know my issue here is your willingness to accept shoddy evidence as proof yet seem to do everything in your power to downplay direct evidence staring you in the face, right? It's not about who is more powerful between Yoda/Windu or Sids?

26) Except "feats" and clips are the best evidence we have in a movie forum. Unless contradicted by superior evidence, they always take precedence. If you don't like that, you're in the wrong place to debate.

27) It is the best evidence we can get (Direct evidence) in a movie. It is also 100% NOT misleading if we're just trying to determine who won the fight. Jeezus. What part of "I'm not arguing who is more powerful between Mace/Sids/Yoda" is too hard to understand?? Seriously.

28) You presented no rules/facts. You presented accolades, tho. Opinions. It's evidence, yes. Circumstantial evidence. Direc > Cirumstantial. Know your proof and please see (25).

29) O'rly? Please point out where I presented timestamps that were purely opinion based. Else, I call BS on this attempt at projection. The only opnion debater here is you.

30) The effect and existence of motivation relevant to a scene is speculative unless you can prove what this motivation is, then what its intention was and finally what it's effect was. Otherwise, we take each scene as-is as they are shown on screen. Seriously, if you don't know this, you need to learn how to assess proof. We don't start making up theories and presenting them as proof in a debate.

31) More attempts of deflection to try and move the debate to another direction. See (25).

32) Lol you're delusional if you think your presenting 3 different VAGUE character opinions and irrelevant fights with different characters in different circumstances is you presenting evidence that proves your point. The only thing you did was try and toss in unrelated data to pad your arguments when everything you presented were inconclusive/vague/irrelevant. You must be awesome at faking your thesis.

I mean you pile on speculation on top of speculation to PROVE a speculation. While attempting to undermine DIRECT proof (w/c only really makes you look stupid) and continuously attempt to divert the debate to another direction even tho you are REPEATEDLY told that this is not the case. Seriously, pages of "that is not what I'm arguing about". Like pages of "novelizations are not allowed in a movie forum". Repeating something just doesn't seem to work with you. I mean, how dense can you be?

Despite the Sids apologists carrying this on longer than needed, and barely making any relevant points.... at least we can all agree Team 1 wins 🙂

Originally posted by quanchi112
My speculation makes sense yours doesn't. You make various leaps in logic which is why I mock you.

So yeah Speculation.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, that isn't proven at all. That doesn't take into account speed, skill, etc. you need to prove these ridiculous theories.

Speed and Skill contributes to Power Dummy.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I won a long time ago.

Keep Trolling 👆

Originally posted by Darth Thor
So yeah Speculation.

Speed and Skill contributes to Power Dummy.

Keep Trolling 👆

Speed and skill are not the same as power, kid.

Irony coming from the guy who doesn't even know about Kenobi and Jango Fett.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yours makes no logical sense whatsoever.

Of course it does. Even the Official Site points out the logic for it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Speed and skill are not the same as power, kid..

I guess the Flash's speed doesn't make him Powerful then LOL

I guess TPM Anakin was just as Powerful as ROTS Anakin then, given that developing his skill in using the force makes no difference LOL

You are Beyond Retarded.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Irony coming from the guy who doesn't even know about Kenobi and Jango Fett.

Nice attempt at a TROLL and divert attention from the fact that you've Cowered away from yet ANOTHER Battlezone challenge by me 😆

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Of course it does. Even the Official Site points out the logic for it.

I guess the Flash's speed doesn't make him Powerful then LOL

I guess TPM Anakin was just as Powerful as ROTS Anakin then, given that developing his skill in using the force makes no difference LOL

You are Beyond Retarded.

Nice attempt at a TROLL and divert attention from the fact that you've Cowered away from yet ANOTHER Battlezone challenge by me 😆

His speed amps his power but speed doesn't have the same definition of power. Anakin grew in strength and power from tpm to rots. Don't be dense.

You backed down the day of after you accepted, troll.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It fans the flames of debate but clearly says Windu won. Palpatine got the result he wanted but due to his cunning on the fly. He can't predict the future.

It said he won (UNTIL ANAKIN WALKED IN...)

I.e. He won the Saber fight. The Lightning Exchange is what's debateable due to Anakin's presence and Palpatine's manipulating.

Originally posted by quanchi112
His speed amps his power but speed doesn't have the same definition of power. Anakin grew in strength and power from tpm to rots. Don't be dense.

Definition's of POWER:

the ability or capacity to do something or act in a particular way.

In the case of a Jedi it's their ABILITY to USE THE FORCE as applied to Combat.

Another definition:

move or travel with great speed or force.

😆

I'll accept your Concession on this as well now. You're not having a good week against me are you?

Originally posted by quanchi112
You backed down the day of after you accepted, troll.

What? Backed down from what?

I've just challenged you to a Darth Maul vs Count Dooku Battlezone and you RAN a Mile. This has nothing to do with NUKHAN!

Just face facts. You're an Uneducated Coward.

Maybe you should spend less time TROLLING these boards, and more time educating yourself, and growing some balls.

Damn!! A challenge Quan didn't answer