Windu & Yoda vs Tyranus & Sidious

Originally posted by Darth Thor
1)Firstly, I didn't say EITHER of the things your claiming I did.

I never claimed it's a Fact that Sidious threw the fight.

2) And the Yoda and Mace fights were COMPLETELY Different to Compare. It's Frankly Retarded to Compare them. And TCW Proves that. We've Had Grievous beating Kenobi ONE TIME. We've had Kenobi and Ventress losing to Maul and Opress one time, then another time Maul and Kenobi fighting to a Stalemate, then a Third time Kenobi actually Defeating Both Maul and Opress combined by himself!

That's because every fight has different factor involved.

3) Mace seems to have got a better result in the Saber fight, but that doesn't make him better than Yoda because it was a very different fight, starting in a different environment and with the 3 other Jedi.

I'm also claiming you can't say Mace "would have won" the FL exchange if Sidious wasn't pretending to be Weak. Because Sidious pretending is TOO BIG a Factor To Ignore. If the Novel was allowed, I'd say Sidious would definitely have won that. But without the novel, I'll leave it up in the air. But again to Completely Ignore that Huge Factor is Retarded.

Mace also didn't have to deal with the Full Force of Sidious's entire Force Arsenal like Yoda did- That's Direct TK AND Plenty of FL throughout the Fight, Not to mention All those frigging Senate Pods.

I'm saying that fight Mace has doesn't prove Mace > Sidious/Yoda. And he has already in fact been established as the SECOND Most Powerful Combatant in the Jedi Order AFTER Yoda. Which would also put him below Sidious.

And I see you spend this whole time trying to Prove Mace is > Yoda/Sidious, and yet still don't have the balls to make your stance clear.

You saying Mace > Yoda/Sidious or not?

Oh and don't expect my reply to your next response right away. Dealing with your trolling takes time, and I'm pretty busy. But I will respond to you a few more times before I've had enough of you repeating "BUT WE SAW MACE BEAT SIDIOUS" LOL

1) Yes, that is why I included sids and relent. Because they're the ones (with the balls) who actually made the assertions. You're just the guy who is providing (and misrepresenting) evidence to protect their arguments (while, until recently, breaking the rules to do so) as well as downplaying/ignoring arguments/evidence provided by those arguing against them. Pages and pages of it.

2) We're not comparing the fights relative to how they compare in a fight against each other. We are comparing the fights relative to how well they did -period-.

Because, y'know, there were debators that actually said Yoda and Mace did as well vs Sids and i disagreed with that.

3) 😂 Look at this kid. Attempting to divert the debate towards another direction. He's gotten so absolutely whipped that he's gone full desperation mode now.

Moving the debate from:
-Sids lost to Mace.
-Sids did no throw the fight.
-Mace did better than Yoda vs Sids.

Even tho, I've repeatedly said that's all I've been (and will be) arguing about.

The same way I repeatedly explained a simple 3-word rule that he seemed to have failed to understand.

To:

-Who is more powerful? Mace/Yoda/Sids.

A topic I already repeatedly stated I was not arguing at this point.

Proving that he's just so badly beaten now that he just wants to get the eff out of dodge and take the debate to an entirely different direction.

All that while hoping no one notices.

As a cherry on top, he accuses me of trolling. Even tho, I've presented direct MOVIE evidence (with clips and timestamps), followed the rules to the letter and been very clear about my position and stayed within them the whole time (but have also as a courtesy and at the request of my opponents answered a few questions even tho I wasn't interested in discussing those topics). Just so that he can make it seem like he's the victim here.

Sad. So so sad.

Ah yes, when all else fails just claim your opponent is badly beaten. Because that never gets old right?

Here's a hint for you, if your opponent actually IS badly beaten other (Objective) people are bound to point it out. Claiming victory for yourself is pretty lame.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) Yes, that is why I included sids and relent. Because they're the ones (with the balls) who actually made the assertions. You're just the guy who is providing (and misrepresenting) evidence to protect their arguments (while, until recently, breaking the rules to do so) as well as downplaying/ignoring arguments/evidence provided by those arguing against them. Pages and pages of it.

Ah yes I cited Movie canon, which I assumed should be fine in a Movie versus forum. The fact that I've stopped now that the Moderator has disallowed it, and the fact that you keep bringing that up just shows your not liking the way I'm handling your arguments so have to resort to keep bringing up the past.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
2) We're not comparing the fights relative to how they compare in a fight against each other. We are comparing the fights relative to how well they did -period-.

Because, y'know, there were debators that actually said Yoda and Mace did as well vs Sids and i disagreed with that.

Well since y'know, we didn't see how the Yoda vs Sidious Saber fight ended, and since y'know Sidious didn't pretend to be weak when firing Lightning at Yoda, and since y'know Mace didn't face the full Versatility of Sidious's Force Powers, in the ideal environment for them to be Utilised in... Then y'know it's kind of stupid and purposefully argumentative to assert the point in the first place that "Mace performed better than Yoda against Sidious.."

Originally posted by Nibedicus
3) 😂 Look at this kid. Attempting to divert the debate towards another direction. He's gotten so absolutely whipped that he's gone full desperation mode now.

Moving the debate from:
-Sids lost to Mace.
-Sids did no throw the fight.
-Mace did better than Yoda vs Sids.

Yeah it couldn't be because these are all related topics could it?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Even tho, I've repeatedly said that's all I've been (and will be) arguing about.

The same way I repeatedly explained a simple 3-word rule that he seemed to have failed to understand.

To:

-Who is more powerful? Mace/Yoda/Sids.

A topic I already repeatedly stated I was not arguing at this point.

No. You've been Trolling. You're basically making ALL the arguments to suggest Mace > Sidious/Yoda, since your out attempting to prove Mace beat Sidious Flat Out with ZERO factors involved, and Yoda failed to beat Sidious again Flat Out, and again with apparently Zero circumstances involved. And then refusing to answer who you think is the better combatant between Mace, Sidious and Yoda.

What I'm trying to argue here, is despite Mace putting Sidious on his Ass, he's not equal to either Yoda or Sidious. And the reason Mace got in that better position was due to the Contextual and Environmental differences of those fights.

Just like Obi-Wan has beaten Maul+Opress together one time, yet he obviously isn't as Powerful as both of them combined. Why? Environmental and Circumstantial Context.

The other reason can be a Peak performance by one combatant, and a low/medium performance by the other.

Now that FYI is making it clear what I'm arguing, unlike you who is arguing one thing, but then refusing to give your opinion on what that means.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Proving that he's just so badly beaten now that he just wants to get the eff out of dodge and take the debate to an entirely different direction.

All that while hoping no one notices.

The Irony here? This is your method of trying to "win" this debate, instead of actually y'know, tackling my points appropriately.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
As a cherry on top, he accuses me of trolling. Even tho, I've presented direct MOVIE evidence (with clips and timestamps), followed the rules to the letter and been very clear about my position and stayed within them the whole time (but have also as a courtesy and at the request of my opponents answered a few questions even tho I wasn't interested in discussing those topics). Just so that he can make it seem like he's the victim here.

Sad. So so sad.

Yes no one can argue time stamps. Time Stamps BEATS ALL.

Actually Nib I never said one did better than the other. That's just something you added in like I can see you've added in so much other false things. Oh and what's this I hear about character statements don't matter? Come on I expect more from you. Anyway, I never said Yoda did better than Mace. I never said Mace did better than Yoda. I went by the facts and said they both disamred Sidious. However Windu's has some more shade to his victory. However if you really want to go by who did better, it's Yoda. At least Yoda came out of the confrontation alive. Lol classic me.

You have seemed to be going on your own interpretation. You seem to claim it to be fact when it's not.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Actually Nib I never said one did better than the other. That's just something you added in like I can see you've added in so much other false things. Oh and what's this I hear about character statements don't matter? Come on I expect more from you. Anyway, I never said Yoda did better than Mace. I never said Mace did better than Yoda. I went by the facts and said they both disamred Sidious. However Windu's has some more shade to his victory. However if you really want to go by who did better, it's Yoda. At least Yoda came out of the confrontation alive. Lol classic me.

You have seemed to be going on your own interpretation. You seem to claim it to be fact when it's not.

Excuse me? Please point out where I said that you said that Yoda did better than Mace, because if I don't remember ever typing that.

I said that you argued that Yoda did as well as Mace as evidenced by:

Originally posted by Nibedicus
5) Are you freaking kidding me? YOU guys (relentless, Emp and you) bring in the false narratives of "Sids threw the fight" and "Yoda did as well as Mace"

Originally posted by Darth Thor
1) Ah yes, when all else fails just claim your opponent is badly beaten. Because that never gets old right?

Here's a hint for you, if your opponent actually IS badly beaten other (Objective) people are bound to point it out. Claiming victory for yourself is pretty lame.

2) Ah yes I cited Movie canon, which I assumed should be fine in a Movie versus forum. The fact that I've stopped now that the Moderator has disallowed it, and the fact that you keep bringing that up just shows your not liking the way I'm handling your arguments so have to resort to keep bringing up the past.

3) Well since y'know, we didn't see how the Yoda vs Sidious Saber fight ended, and since y'know Sidious didn't pretend to be weak when firing Lightning at Yoda, and since y'know Mace didn't face the full Versatility of Sidious's Force Powers, in the ideal environment for them to be Utilised in... Then y'know it's kind of stupid and purposefully argumentative to assert the point in the first place that "Mace performed better than Yoda against Sidious.."

4) Yeah it couldn't be because these are all related topics could it?

5) No. You've been Trolling. You're basically making ALL the arguments to suggest Mace > Sidious/Yoda, since your out attempting to prove Mace beat Sidious Flat Out with ZERO factors involved, and Yoda failed to beat Sidious again Flat Out, and again with apparently Zero circumstances involved. And then refusing to answer who you think is the better combatant between Mace, Sidious and Yoda.

6) What I'm trying to argue here, is despite Mace putting Sidious on his Ass, he's not equal to either Yoda or Sidious. And the reason Mace got in that better position was due to the Contextual and Environmental differences of those fights.

Just like Obi-Wan has beaten Maul+Opress together one time, yet he obviously isn't as Powerful as both of them combined. Why? Environmental and Circumstantial Context.

The other reason can be a Peak performance by one combatant, and a low/medium performance by the other.

7) Now that FYI is making it clear what I'm arguing, unlike you who is arguing one thing, but then refusing to give your opinion on what that means.

8) The Irony here? This is your method of trying to "win" this debate, instead of actually y'know, tackling my points appropriately.

9) Yes no one can argue time stamps. Time Stamps BEATS ALL.

1) This coming from the guy who claimed that he "completely broken down my points" (aka. claiming victory) and he going with the whole "he's trolling" routine. Here's a hint: if you're going to attempt to sound holier than thou. Please make sure you are. Otherwise, you sound even more of a hypocrite than you already are.

Your methods reek of desperation. You know you can't win the argument we're having so you're trying to divert it to a different direction. It's not working, it's transparent/obvious, and it's sad.

2) I'm pointing it out because you tried to weasel yourself out of responsibility for the bad arguments posted in this debate by going the whole "well I didn't really make the argument". Even tho you wasted pages and pages of text trying to defend it. Much of the pages wasted is arguing against the rules even tho it is a simple 3 word rule that was constantly being explained to you. The same way I'm constantly having to explain what my argument is (a simple 3 phrase argument).

3) Completely and utterly irrelevant. This has nothing to do with the circumstances of the fights. This has nothing to do with Yoda being better than Mace or vice versa. This is entirely about who did better. The end result is easily discernible by anyone who actually watches the clips without 3-inch thick bias glasses blinding them to the truth. And the only reason I'm actually arguing it is because someone made the claim that they did equally as well. Which I disagree with. That is all.

4) This entire debate has been about people making claims that I disagree with and so I argue with them. <---- let that sink in and please try to understand what that means.

Now you are trying to (again) weasel out of the debate I want to discuss by pulling the debate into a completely NEW argument that I have no opinion about (hey you can go Yoda > Mace all day long and I won't argue against it, I won't agree with it, I just won't argue against it as I'm not interested in that discussion). It's desperate and transparent. Too obvious for me to fall for that. SMH.

5) Losing the debate? Accuse ppl of trolling! That'll work! Not working? Why not misrepresent your opponent's arguments and intentions even tho he's been explaining what his argument and intentions are for about 2 pages now! See it that works!! Ummm.... No.

How many times do I have to explain to you what my arguments are? How many times do I have to state that I made them in REACTION to assertions made by other people? Are we gonna have pages and pages of having to argue THIS point when you're so obviously wrong about it as well? Do you want a mod ruling about what my intentions are now (that's a joke btw)? -_-

6) And this is the part of your argument I never argued against. And I REPEATEDLY stated wasn't part of the argument I was making or have any interest in making. Me having to CONSTANTLY restate what I am arguing for/against is getting tedious.

7) Oh ho ho! Trying to distance yourself from the ACTUAL argument we've been having now that you're losing by giving the whole "well THIS is what I've been arguing" spiel?

And you think that's going to work?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I did however admit Sidious Throwing the fight was a Legitimate THEORY, seen as The Official Site itself suggests it as a Possibility.

🙄

8) Let me get this straight....

I'm the one sticking to the topic I've been arguing while having to explain repeatedly (and I mean REPEATEDLY) what I'm arguing about. You're the one trying to divert this debate to another direction.

And you accuse me of "methods" instead of "actually y'know, tackling my points appropriately."?

You mean like how you are "diverting the debate to another direction" (method) instead of tackling my points (about Sids not throwing the fight, losing the fight and Yoda doing as well as Mace <---- the only things I've been arguing about btw).

Deflection. Bold, in-your-face Deflection. Pathetic.

9) Yes. Yes it actually does. Direct evidence > all. Basic logic here.

Missed one page of your replies (as they were separated). Gonna get back to it later. Dada duties call.

Yoda and Mace.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Excuse me? Please point out where I said that you said that Yoda did better than Mace, because if I don't remember ever typing that.

I said that you argued that Yoda did as well as Mace as evidenced by:

That quote is where I possibly misundertood it. Once again I never said one did as well as the other. All I said was they both disamred him as goigm by the facts. Not saying one did better than the other, just said they both disamred him.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
1) First of all we've all seen the fight. Duh.

Posting a fight we've all seen claiming that's your evidence is a bit lame, when that's the fight we keep going over.

You claim Mace had Sidious completely at his mercy before the Lightning shots began. But did he?

2) I guess Ventress had Obi-Wan completely at her mercy here then:

@1:37

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNiB1tk0wvo

Except she didn't. Because Obi-Wan still won that fight. Granted Sidious was on the floor, but then Obi-Wan couldn't simply shoot Force Lightning anytime he wanted either.

3) Next saying Sidious's Lightning proved ineffective against Mace just because he wasn't left with scars is pretty Retarded, considering how Mace was Screaming and Clearly Struggling to contain those Blasts.

4) I guess Palpatine's Lightning proved useless against Luke as well, since Luke was left with No scars. I guess it was useless against Yoda as well, because Yoda was left with no scare either.

5) And you keep talking about the damage Sidious took as if That's all that matters. Vader took a Lightsaber hit from Luke on the shoulder in ESB. Did that mean Vader was suddenly losing? No? Why? Because he could take it, despite his armour clearly having taken some damage.

6) So no I don't have to PROVE Anything at this point, Because You Haven't Proven anything substantial. Just taken the scene we've all seen, and we're all discussing, and made your own conclusions out of it. And Expect everyone else to ACCEPT YOUR Interpretation as Proof, despite many other things clearly going on in that scene.

7) See above. Your interpretation is full of conjecture. That because Sidious was "Visibly" damaged that automatically means he couldn't have carried on as long as Mace with the exchange.

8) Have you seen real fights before? You think the guy bleeding more is the one who will back down first? Or the guy with more bruises, or the guy just looking worse?

9) Astonishing you're actually presenting that as some kind of Actual Proof that Sidious would have backed down first. Especially when WE KNOW the kind of damage Sith Lords can take. From the Injuries Vader suffers later to Maul recovering from Bisecting.

10) Whilst the "damage" being done to Sidious didn't have him screaming, didn't even stop him talking, or heck EVEN SMILING!

11) Right so you to you it makes sense for you to present your own interpretation of a fight as FACT. But Actual FACTS told to us in the film like about the nature of Midi-Chlorians, are some kind of Conjecture.

Midi-Chlorian count determine one's Potential Force Power. The fact that we KNOW Yoda's is the highest, means the only way Mace could possibly be more Powerful than Yoda is if he either Yoda hadn't fulfilled his full potential, or Mace somehow was more experienced than the 870year old Jedi Master. Good luck proving that one.

And FYI, the Force is Used as much in Saber fights as it is in TK. It's just a different skill set. But considering Yoda's experience as a Teacher for Hundreds of years, you'd have to be Silly to claim Mace has Mastered one of the fundamental parts of Jedi Force training, to a better degree than Yoda.

12) So let's get this straight... You went to the Mod to make all Movie Commentary from the Movie audio commentary, through Source Books, and the Movie Novelisations (line edited by Lucas mind you), inadmissible as evidence... And now you want to write off the Massive Loads of Charater Accolades we're given IN the actual film.

13) If it was something said just Once I wouldn't bother. If it was something said Just by Sidious, then I also wouldn't bother with it. But it was a Point brought up again and again and again by both Obi-Wan and Palaptine. The Main Antagonist and Protagonist of the Trilogy. And it was something no one ever Objected to in the films! No, That is the movie simply establishing a rule of these films- that Yoda is the Most Powerful Combatant in the Jedi Order. Not Mace.

14) Also you're bringing examples up like Yoda saying "At an end your rule is" is pretty retarded, as that was Obviously a Threat, and one Palpatine straight away objected to.

Vader didn't become more Powerful than Yoda or Sidious because that was "A Predcition", and again One that Yoda straight away Objected to.

15) You need to differentiate between, Character Opinions, Prediction, Threats, and Characters Presenting Facts. Which is what I brought up (Especially in the Absence of Out of Universe Sources).

Otherwise you might as well just Ignore Everything said in the film. Palpatine said this Republic has stood for a Thousand Years- Oh we don't know that, because it's Palpatine's opinion! Anakin says "No one's ever Appointed to the Council without being appointed Master"= Yeah he's lying there too Obviously!

16) Guess what, Midi-Cholrians don't even exist! It's just the Jedi's opinion! LOL!

17) And yeah of course you'd feel insulted that YOUR Interpretation of the fight (which I've already broken down), isn't accepted as Fact whilst Established Truths given to us Over and over and Over in the films are.

1) Disarmed? Yes. On his butt? Yes. Does his posiiton allow for any effective maneuvers (like ducking)? No. Force attack got him out of it? No.

Looks pretty at his mercy to me.

2) Obviously, she didn't as he was standing and still had room to duck which he did. 😂 Bad logic is bad.

3) "Ineffective" meaning "unsuccessful" or didn't "produce desired result". NOT that it had no effect. Sheesh, one would think you'd know that was my meaning. But I'll gladly explain it if I wasn't clear.

4) Except for the fact that Luke was on his butt, incapacitated and smoking? Or the fact that Yoda was knocked face down, smoking and stunned? You know injury isn't the only effect that is visually apparent, right? I wasn't even sure I should dignify this insanity with a response...

Oh but I guess "AUDIBLE EFFECTZZZ!" is enough for you. 😂

5) Except that I made this point to prove that Sid's lightning attack had a more detrimental effect on him than his opponent.

Kinda like a situation where you both struggle for a knife and the knife gets pointed at you and you stab yourself in the leg repeatedly, granted you can take that, granted that you CAN get REAL lucky and MAYBE reverse the knife on your opponent even tho there has been no signs of it even moving his direction (and is still slowly inching it's way towards you even more) other than him struggling against you. I mean you can certainly make an argument for that. But don't blame ppl for laughing at you/shaking their heads at you when you do.

6) Firstly, let's not deflect here. I didn't make the assertions, your side did (you didn't make it, you "defended" it). I merely presented the scene as it happened and pointed out all evidence in the scene goes against their assertion and then made my interpretation in line with my arguments.

Secondly, you seem to be misunderstanding how logic and proof works. You see, I don't have to point to anything BUT the scene as it proves my argument in its entirety. Inserting any other interpretation into the scene like "Sids threw the fight" requires YOUR side to provide indisputable proof (w/c you didn't). Simple logic there, son.

7) Onus on you to prove that he still could. All logical signs (Windu took no damage, was advancing and, as far as I can see, wasn't even breathing hard at the end of the barrage <---- all supported by timestamps) point to the exchange being far worse for Sids than Windu. Simple logic here, can't believe you can't seem to get it.

8) I actually have been in several fights yes, I boxed for two years and took various self defense for 6. And you're right it's not about who takes the most damage in the fight. It's about the end result. Who gets knocked on his ass or who gets put in an unwinnable position.

Fortunately, not only did Sids take more damage, he also got put in an unwinnable position.

9) Except he did back down first. SMH. You inserting excuses like "pretending to be weak" notwithstanding.

10) What is your obsession with going the "AUDIBLE effect" route? 😂 screaming has no bearing here. All it proves is that Mace was struggling. Didn't even stop him from slowly advancing. How much damage Sids take is irrelevant and you using examples of OTHER sith "feats" (not Sids) of taking damage is irrelevant (not to mention inadmissible as "feats" aren't interchangeable) as well. As there was NO provable progress to winning that was gained on his part by his barrage. Essentially, all you have are theories and maybe and coulda beens. I have clips with timestamps. My proof > yours.

11) How does the nature of midichlorians tell us who won the Mace vs Sids fights? Or if Sids threw the fight? Or if Yoda did as well as Mace vs Sdis?

Oh wait it doesn't. Just your attempt at diverting the debate.

12) Character statements/comments are the weakest form of evidence in any medium. The fact that you would put this beside direct evidence such as clips with timestamps shows how poor your grasp of logic and evidence is.

And don't be pointing your finger at me when you actually told me to get a mod ruling, you nimrod

13) You understand that I agreed with the part of Yoda being strongest in the force right? But due to actual "feats" not weak-ass character statement evidence. You also understand

I disagreed of your use of a sole VAGUE character statement of opinion which you then tried to push about Yoda being the best swordsman because Obi wan made a comment about Anakin becoming as good as him if he practiced more. 😂 Not even saying it's true/false.

Just saying that your method of accepting/rejecting evidence is absurd. Especially when you don't seem to accept direct evidence presented with clips and timestamps.

14) Proof character statements are weak as evidence as characters can be wrong and anyone can take what someone said and misconstrue its meaning or attach meaning to it that didn't exist. Things happening > characters saying that they could. Simple logic here.

15) And you need to differentiate opinion from quantifiable statements. HINT: "If you practiced your Saber skills as much as you did your wit you'd rival Master Yoda as a Swordsman" is NOT a quantifiable statement that proves Yoda > Mace as a swordsman.

16) Actually there was a scene where Qi Gon took blood samples from Anakin and tested it for Midichlorians (TPM). So, visually it was shown that they had methods for testing it and it was SPECIFICALLY (and quantifiable) explained how it worked. But let's not let proof get in the way of making a (not-so-witty) quip, eh?

17) LOL. At your deflection. Only one of us provided actual clips of the actual event being discussed with timestamps here (not you).

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
That quote is where I possibly misundertood it. Once again I never said one did as well as the other. All I said was they both disamred him as goigm by the facts. Not saying one did better than the other, just said they both disamred him.

Then an apology would be in order as you just went on a tirade of accusing me of something I didn't do?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Then an apology would be in order as you just went on a tirade of accusing me of something I didn't do?

I believe the second part of your post is where you said I argued Yoda did as well as Mace when I did no such thing. I said they both disarmed him. That's me going by the facts. It's true they both did. I just went by the facts. Then I explicitly say I'm not debating whether who did better than the other and you keep saying I'm doing that. So if anyone owes anyone an apology would be you to me.

Originally posted by relentless1
fight takes place in the Geonosian arena

Jedi Masters ftw.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I believe the second part of your post is where you said I argued Yoda did as well as Mace when I did no such thing. I said they both disarmed him. That's me going by the facts. It's true they both did. I just went by the facts. Then I explicitly say I'm not debating whether who did better than the other and you keep saying I'm doing that. So if anyone owes anyone an apology would be you to me.

You know what ES? I'm gonna stop us both from wasting our times and predict exactly what's gonna happen here:

I'm probably gonna start by stating that "did as well" fits your narrative in a literal sense as you stating that both Yoda and Mace disarming Sids, literally means that they "did as well" at disarming him in their saber duel. I would probably also add that the in the indirect sense, it also fits the description of your narrative if we take it in context with the intentions of your arguments as you were out to prove that Windu needed to be amped to accomplish the same thing as Yoda (disarming Sids). I would probably say that my use of words was simplified to take into account any other argument that implies anything of the sort that I might have missed.

Then, you're probably going to deny this. Then I start wasting my time posting quotes and explaining the goals and gists of your arguments within such quotes. In which case you'll probably find another convoluted reason to deny it. At which time this debate becomes a circular he said she saids uh huh nuh-uh squabble.

While I do love to debate, that would essentially be debating nothing. If you don't want to apologize for accusing me of "adding in false things (plural)" even tho you never pointed out where this so-called "false things" are and even tho you've already admitted to actually misconstruing what I said, then I have nothing else to talk to you about. Not interested in arguing he-said/she-said BS and not wasting time doing so. I have better things to do.

Windu and Yoda win. 10/10.

In the end, no amount of sids apologist whining nor conjecture can ever change the fact that Mace won. It's time to accept that the majority of canon evidence is with the side that Mace won. Move on

Emperor Sidious and Darth Thor are openly biased and try to undermine the evidence and say hey maybe he did throw the fight despite of the mountain of evidndce and common sense that says otherwise.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
In the end, no amount of sids apologist whining nor conjecture can ever change the fact that Mace won. It's time to accept that the majority of canon evidence is with the side that Mace won. Move on

He won the Saber fight. You can't claim it's a Fact he won the Lightning Exchange when We Know Sidious was faking being weak. You can theorize yes. Otherwise you should call the guys at Lucasfilm "Sid Apologists" as well.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) Disarmed? Yes. On his butt? Yes. Does his posiiton allow for any effective maneuvers (like ducking)? No. Force attack got him out of it? No.

Looks pretty at his mercy to me.

Hmm, so on your butt means there's nothing you can do right?

Except he DID do something from that position. He fired Force Lightning which held Windu's Saber back.

Just for the record examplpes of people on their butt and under someone Saber yet NOT defeated:

@2:37 (actually in a worse position), and @ 2:54

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xP3fI7yn5s

And here @1:18-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx4m6lvpgKY

And before you shout "BUT THEY HAD THEIR SABERS", you just claimed there's No Room for maneuvering out of that poisiton. These are also combatants with only equal or inferior TK to their opponents, unlike Palpatine who clearly has superior Force Powers.

Not to mention the evidence suggests he had a 2nd Saber on him. But even for arguments sake let's say his 2nd Saber wasn't on him when he knew he had multiple Jedi coming to arrest/kill him... Then that would of course be another of multiple contextual factors that lead to Mace coming out on top in that particular fight.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
2) Obviously, she didn't as he was standing and still had room to duck which he did. 😂 Bad logic is bad.

Addressed.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
3) "Ineffective" meaning "unsuccessful" or didn't "produce desired result". NOT that it had no effect. Sheesh, one would think you'd know that was my meaning. But I'll gladly explain it if I wasn't clear.

Which is YOUR Opinion since we Never Saw the conclusion of their FL Exchange, as Palpatine STOPPED it, Faking being weak.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
4) Except for the fact that Luke was on his butt, incapacitated and smoking? Or the fact that Yoda was knocked face down, smoking and stunned? You know injury isn't the only effect that is visually apparent, right? I wasn't even sure I should dignify this insanity with a response...

Oh but I guess "AUDIBLE EFFECTZZZ!" is enough for you. 😂

Point was "NO SCARS" does not mean your "fine."

And again, Yoda and Sidious Finished their FL exchange. Mace and Palpatine DID NOT.

I find it amusing you are honestly arguing that "Screaming in Pain" means the combatant is quite comfortable and can carry on all day 😂

Originally posted by Nibedicus
5) Except that I made this point to prove that Sid's lightning attack had a more detrimental effect on him than his opponent.

Kinda like a situation where you both struggle for a knife and the knife gets pointed at you and you stab yourself in the leg repeatedly, granted you can take that, granted that you CAN get REAL lucky and MAYBE reverse the knife on your opponent even tho there has been no signs of it even moving his direction (and is still slowly inching it's way towards you even more) other than him struggling against you. I mean you can certainly make an argument for that. But don't blame ppl for laughing at you/shaking their heads at you when you do.

Yeah except usually when somebody gets stabbed they're not in a position to SMILE as soon as the something they like happens.

You tell me, you stab a guy and he gets the knife out smiling, and you yourself are screaming in pain from a slash you got, you'd be comfortable you're going to get out of that situation on top? LOL

Originally posted by Nibedicus
6) Firstly, let's not deflect here. I didn't make the assertions, your side did (you didn't make it, you "defended" it). I merely presented the scene as it happened and pointed out all evidence in the scene goes against their assertion and then made my interpretation in line with my arguments.

Secondly, you seem to be misunderstanding how logic and proof works. You see, I don't have to point to anything BUT the scene as it proves my argument in its entirety. Inserting any other interpretation into the scene like "Sids threw the fight" requires YOUR side to provide indisputable proof (w/c you didn't). Simple logic there, son.

First of, No. All you had to do was go back to see how Our Debate began.

It began on Page 6, where I asserted that Mace is NOT a Peer of Sidious and is in fact below him, no matter what happened in that particular fight.

And everything I've been arguing since has been in defense of that idea.

Next I've since that very page asserted my belief that Mace did Win the Saber portion of the fight, but the FL Exchange is up in the air. With the novel included I'm of the opinion Sidious "would have won". With the novel Not Included, I'll just leave it as up in the air.

However Fact Is we did not see the end of that exchange due to the Anakin factor, and Sidious preferring to use the situation to sway Anakin onto his side.

So let's get this straight, there's no "Evidence" of the End result of the FL Exchange either way, because it Never Happened. All that's clear is both sides were struggling, with one side shouting in pain more, but with no visible damage and the other side getting scarred up.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
7) Onus on you to prove that he still could. All logical signs (Windu took no damage, was advancing and, as far as I can see, wasn't even breathing hard at the end of the barrage <---- all supported by timestamps) point to the exchange being far worse for Sids than Windu. Simple logic here, can't believe you can't seem to get it.

LOL So you dismiss Shouting in Pain, but take "Breathing" into account. Brilliant. Let me know how Palpatine's breathing after you timestamp that.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
8) I actually have been in several fights yes, I boxed for two years and took various self defense for 6. And you're right it's not about who takes the most damage in the fight. It's about the end result. Who gets knocked on his ass or who gets put in an unwinnable position.

Fortunately, not only did Sids take more damage, he also got put in an unwinnable position.

Already showed it wasn't necessarily an unwinnable position. Of course I won't lie and say it was a normal or good position either. But the "possibility" of a win, or a stalemate, was definitely there.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
9) Except he did back down first. SMH. You inserting excuses like "pretending to be weak" notwithstanding.

Kind of an important factor.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
10) What is your obsession with going the "AUDIBLE effect" route? 😂 screaming has no bearing here. All it proves is that Mace was struggling. Didn't even stop him from slowly advancing. How much damage Sids take is irrelevant and you using examples of OTHER sith "feats" (not Sids) of taking damage is irrelevant (not to mention inadmissible as "feats" aren't interchangeable) as well. As there was NO provable progress to winning that was gained on his part by his barrage. Essentially, all you have are theories and maybe and coulda beens. I have clips with timestamps. My proof > yours.

Just the fact that Sidious Wasn't Screaming suggests he wasn't finding the exchange as difficult as you let on. Scarring alone is meaningless to the fight, It's about How much Pain he can handle.

Mace screaming suggests Pain on Mace's side as well. Because Not All Pain is Visible.

Oh excuse me for bringing up Facts about the kind of Punishment Weaker Sith can take, let alone the Ultimate Sith Master. Of course Palpatine can take more punishment than his much weaker and less experienced Sith Apprentices.

Feats are Exchangeable to that extent. For example, we see the Super Sprint Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon do at the beginning of TPM. To say Yoda can't sprint that fast because we've not seen it would be Pretty Retarded.

Yes we should Ignore the Plot, the Story, the Accolades given, and just go by "TIME STAMPS" LMAO

FYI, Windu was Only Advancing as Palpatine began faking his weakness.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
11) How does the nature of midichlorians tell us who won the Mace vs Sids fights? Or if Sids threw the fight? Or if Yoda did as well as Mace vs Sdis?
Oh wait it doesn't. Just your attempt at diverting the debate.

It means Yoda is inherently the more force user powerful combatant. We already know he's the more experienced force user and combatant.

But yes again, I'm sure bringing up evidences, accolades, story, plot and context means nothing. All that matters is THE TIMESTAMPS!

Originally posted by Nibedicus
12) Character statements/comments are the weakest form of evidence in any medium. The fact that you would put this beside direct evidence such as clips with timestamps shows how poor your grasp of logic and evidence is.

And don't be pointing your finger at me when you actually told me to get a mod ruling, you nimrod

Not when those character statements are constantly repeated by different people. That's just establishing factual information in the Universe. But of course doesn't compare to TIME STAMPS.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
13) You understand that I agreed with the part of Yoda being strongest in the force right? But due to actual "feats" not weak-ass character statement evidence. You also understand

I disagreed of your use of a sole VAGUE character statement of opinion which you then tried to push about Yoda being the best swordsman because Obi wan made a comment about Anakin becoming as good as him if he practiced more. 😂 Not even saying it's true/false.

Just saying that your method of accepting/rejecting evidence is absurd. Especially when you don't seem to accept direct evidence presented with clips and timestamps.

Feats alone can actually be misleading, as I've already proven with the Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan super sprint.

Fights and TIME STAMPS alone can also be misleading due to differing contexts of each fight, as proven by Kenobi beating Maul+Opress combined. But that's especially so when considering Character Motivations in a scene where a Master Manipulator is clearly trying to manipulate some DURING a fight. The result of That Particular scene could easily be considered as subjective as character statements.

Accolades and established rules/facts within a Universe are also evidences.

And no I haven't rejected any "evidence." Problem is what your calling Evidence is simply Your Own interpretation of a scene, with assumptions attached.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
14) Proof character statements are weak as evidence as characters can be wrong and anyone can take what someone said and misconstrue its meaning or attach meaning to it that didn't exist. Things happening > characters saying that they could. Simple logic here.

And even in fights Characters can be manipulating each other, and we don't know what their intentions are.

So going by that, you can't include any of the film as evidence except for the opening crawl.

So AGAIN when a statement is made over and over again, not objected by anyone, and told to us by different characters, it's safe to take that as an established fact in the Universe.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
15) And you need to differentiate opinion from quantifiable statements. HINT: "If you practiced your Saber skills as much as you did your wit you'd rival Master Yoda as a Swordsman" is NOT a quantifiable statement that proves Yoda > Mace as a swordsman.

What does Obi-Wan not know who Mace is? If Mace was the best Jedi Swordsman do you not think he would have brought up his name?

You think Obi-Wan just mentioned Any Good Jedi Swordsman in that scene? LOL

Again, the idea that Yoda is the Best Jedi Combatant, is an idea repeated by Both Obi-Wan and Palpatine again and again. It's clearly the movies establishing a Fact known to everyone in the Universe.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
16) Actually there was a scene where Qi Gon took blood samples from Anakin and tested it for Midichlorians (TPM). So, visually it was shown that they had methods for testing it and it was SPECIFICALLY (and quantifiable) explained how it worked. But let's not let proof get in the way of making a (not-so-witty) quip, eh?

We don't know what cells they were looking at. The whole Midi-Chlorians connecting people to the Force could be a completely made up thing by the Jedi (according to your own rules of what's accepted as evidence and what's not).

But The FACT, that it's something that's repeated again and again throughout the saga with no one objecting to the notion, is what establishes it as an IN UNIVERSE FACT.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
17) LOL. At your deflection. Only one of us provided actual clips of the actual event being discussed with timestamps here (not you).

And Only one of us has given evidence from throughout the films, and other fights, and established facts and rules in the SW Movies and Tv series, to make his argument.

Whilst the other one thinks HIS TIME STAMPS Proves all.

It's a Wonder that this is the most debated result of all the fights in Star Wars, and that even the people at Lucasfilm state the end result of that fight is a deabateable one, when all they needed was Nibedicus's TIMESTAMPS to end it. LMAO