Originally posted by Nibedicus
I'm hard pressed to find anything Yoda ever did at the level of the tank. If we base it on real world dimensions, the tank itself is larger than an M1 Abrams that weighs in at 60 tons.And droidekas have always caused jedi problems. Never seen anyone simply smash them with a single push.
That's why Feats Alone are misguiding. We have to Power Scale as well.
Like I said those feats of Mace's are impressive, but only slightly more impressive than what we've seen from Maul and Savage. And Sidious owned Both of the Maul brothers with his TK Simultaneously.
And Yoda of course matched Sidious in Force Powers.
Here this is what I'm talking about:
@ 2:10 here Savage chucks that Jedi Craft off the cliff.
?v=izHmAPQ0qPY
At 4:22 here Maul does the same to a different Jedi Craft, but from a greater distance:
?v=IqEtXVh8UOo
And here @ 3:04 Savage does a Massive Force Wave that Floors 3 Destroyer Droids on top of 6 Battle Droids, 8 regular droids, and let's not forget- 2 Jedi:
?v=IMC4m3CBoU4
Yes he didn't crush any of them, but take All that Power and focus it on 2 Destroyer Droids with their shields down, and yeah chances are they'd be crushed.
And talking of Power Scaling, Savage's TK is lame compared to even Count Dooku's:
From 1:00 onwards
?v=O2xe9okSSLA
And this is what Sidious does to Count Dooku:
?v=W9DZF7Hx2zM
Now by the way, none of the above was to lowball Windu in anyway. He's clearly the 2nd Most Powerful Jedi. And he's clearly more Powerful than Darth Maul or Savage Opress.
It was just to show Power Scaling is more important than feats, and when we Power Scale, Yoda and Sidious come out on top (in Force Powers), and it's not even close.
I'm not here to argue who is stronger than who. Just wanted to showcase Mace's "feats" because I feel that some people haven't seen them yet.
Gotta admit, Maul/Savage's "feats" aren't bad. Those shuttles were big even and even simply tipping them over is pretty impressive. As a rebuttal, here Windu managed to tip over a huge Metal Gate that was many times larger than a droid tank in the same episode I posted. Wish I could post vids but I don't know how to trim vids and post them in facebook using my ipad (where I keep my Itunes vids). From measuring it alongside a droid (est 6" feet tall) and measuring with a ruler against the gate in a still I took, I estimate it to be about 50+ feet high (15 meters), 35+ feet wide and about 3+ feet thick. That would be upwards of about 1200 ton range if steel (and not hollow). Hollowed out a bit would still put it at around multi-hundred ton range. And he did it with barely any effort. Crazy if you think about it.
http://i.imgur.com/hDmAJ3s.png
http://i.imgur.com/DTCDohN.png
The still I used to measure (it's blurry, but here you can see a droid nearly flush against the gate itself at the bottom of said gate):
http://i.imgur.com/2Qd8S3y.png
Tho, let me be the first to say that he DID simply tear the gate off the hinges. But let it be said that said hinges were strong enough to support said gate and would mean that they could pretty much bear the load.
Also, you're comparing Dooku and Savage when it was early on in the series. Unless I've gotten the episode numbers mixed up, that is. Why would you post videos of him as a noob then post vids of him when he had better control of his abilities?
Heck, here is Savege's anger giving him enough power to challenge BOTH Dooku AND Opress momentarily (forcing them to double team) see (1:26).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2S2bY8JY5Fk
As for the rest, not comparing Yoda/Sids/Mace here. Just providing "feats" so people may understand that Mace DOES have force "feats" (all of w/c he did with very little effort on his part). And powerscaling is grossly undependable as evidence, particularly as peers can possibly exchange wins given the right circumstances.
Although, with how much of a feeb Sids treats Dooku, one would think you have to think twice about thinking Dooku > Mace in force power or that Dooku is even in the same ballpark as Yoda in force power.
Am waiting on your reply on our previous exchange, btw.
trim vids and post them on YOUTUBE I mean. Not facebook. Typo. Too late to edit.
Another typo (Fixd in this version):
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Also, you're comparing Dooku and Savage when it was early on in the series. Unless I've gotten the episode numbers mixed up, that is. Why would you post videos of him as a noob to compare him against Dooku then post vids of him when he had better control of his abilities to compare him against Mace's "feats"?
Originally posted by relentless1
then Dooku casually says " its obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skill with a lightsaber" implying that they were more or less stalemated
He did nothing casual compared to Yoda in the force fight. He literally has a OH SHIT I'M ****ED IF I KEEP THIS UP look on his face during it. Yoda on the other hand LITERALLY says " Much to learn you still have" as he casually deals with his force lighting. Dooku saying it's obvious we need to go to sabers don't at all prove what you think it does. In fact it proves the opposite. He knew he was going to lose if he continued on that route and knew his best shot was sabers so he decided to go there. It had nothing to do with him feeling like he was Yoda's equal. He knew he was no such thing.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
He did nothing casual compared to Yoda in the force fight. He literally has a OH SHIT I'M ****ED IF I KEEP THIS UP look on his face during it. Yoda on the other hand LITERALLY says " Much to learn you still have" as he casually deals with his force lighting. Dooku saying it's obvious we need to go to sabers don't at all prove what you think it does. In fact it proves the opposite. He knew he was going to lose if he continued on that route and knew his best shot was sabers so he decided to go there. It had nothing to do with him feeling like he was Yoda's equal. He knew he was no such thing.
That doesn't really ring true though, call it hubris on Dookus part if you want but he clearly wasn't too fazed at Yodas Force power display otherwise he would have tried to blitz him with his lightsaber instead of announcing the change and allowing Yoda to get his lightsaber out
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
he was merely trying to capture Dooku...
That's from he novel, so against the forum rules.
In any case to be fair, Mace and Anakin both went all out on Palpatine and Dooku defeating them but without killing them. So I think as long as you're willing to chop off limbs there shouldn't be an issue.
Originally posted by relentless1
That doesn't really ring true though, call it hubris on Dookus part if you want but he clearly wasn't too fazed at Yodas Force power display otherwise he would have tried to blitz him with his lightsaber instead of announcing the change and allowing Yoda to get his lightsaber out
Yoda wasn't really going on offense in the force duel. He was however going all out in the lightsaber duel, so that's a feat for Dooku.
@ Nibedicus, yes Mace had some very nice feats in that episode, which is why I put his feats above Maul and Savage's. Just not by a Huge amount.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
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Also, you're comparing Dooku and Savage when it was early on in the series. Unless I've gotten the episode numbers mixed up, that is. Why would you post videos of him as a noob then post vids of him when he had better control of his abilities?
It was the same episode.
Besides which Opress never really grew in power as a result of his training. Because he hardly had any. His abilities were mainly from the Nightsister Magic Amp he got, and his training as a warrior before then.
Saying that he obviously learned to use that power better from Dooku, but if I were to put percentages in ot (speculation) I'd say 90% of his Power was from the Nightsister Amp and 10% from Dooku's training.
Point being training wouldn't have made THAT Big a difference.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Heck, here is Savege's anger giving him enough power to challenge BOTH Dooku AND Opress momentarily (forcing them to double team) see (1:26).
Well, he caught them(Dooku and Ventress) by surprise when they were fighting each other. (And due to a clear Rage Amp, same Rage Amp he was in when he put down the Destroyer and Battle droids to be fair).
Then we don't know how much that surprise choke might have weakened them (especially for Dooku who was fighting them both off for a while previous to Savage's force choke).
Still Ventress and Dooku combined attack put Opress down a short while later. But it's hard to say if Dooku's attack would have done that alone.
In any case when Opress chucked that ship off the cliff, it was before his Rage amp. So he was Definitely far far below Dooku in TK and Force Powers at that point, as seen in their fight Pre-Rage Choke.
So if we Power Scale, Chucking Ships like that would/should be really really easy for Count Dooku.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
That's from he novel, so against the forum rules.In any case to be fair, Mace and Anakin both went all out on Palpatine and Dooku defeating them but without killing them. So I think as long as you're willing to chop off limbs there shouldn't be an issue.
I think you meant... actually I don't know what you really meant. At first I thought you were saying Kenobi and Anakin vs. Dooku.. but they you said mace and Anakin and Palps. So I just don't know what you mean. If you did mean Kenobi and Anakin from AOTC... he clearly was going to kill Kenobi... so he wasn't trying to capture them. If you meant their second fight... Dooku lost that fight.. so again I don't know what you were trying to say
Agreed buddy, my issue is not that somebody can win or lose whether going all out or not. I agree somebody can win and show superiority not going for the kill. However, you'd agree that going all out for the kill would open more options and the combatants to potentially be more ruthless. Just how it goes in real life and in general
Training helps hone one's abilities with the force and channel/tap into one's rage better. I mean within the same training he managed to lift those rocks, something he couldn't do at the start of it. I'd say it is far more than just 10%.
I also disagree about "slightly". I believe that Mace's gate "feat" craps on either one of their "feats". Entirely different levels altogether. A few dozen tons vs Over a thousand tons.
Also, can't recall Yoda/Sids having similar "feats". The rock lifting "feat" by Dooku on Sav's training (according to a material weight calculator I used) is around 8+ tons for the big rocks and 1+ ton for the small ones so that's pretty impressive. Putting that "feat" nearly in the hundred ton range (assuming you use granite as a basis). Crazy "feat" if you think about it. Which I think is closer to Windu's gate "feat" but IMO still slightly inferior to it.
Funny thing is, from what "feats" have been provided, Dooku/Mace now have better force "feats" than either Sids or Yoda at this point (rocks/gate >>> X-Wing).
Which is why I guess "feats" can be complemented by powerscaling (but NOT overruled by it). You can say that in their fight, Yoda has been shown to be superior to Dooku in the force (just an example, not saying this is what happened), thus even tho Dooku has better "feats", their fight proves that Dooku cannot overwhelm Yoda in a battle force-wise (and the reverse is likely to happen). We, cannot however, assume that Yoda can easily lift hundred-ton rocks because we have never seen him lift hundred-ton rocks. Although, it is a reasonable assumption that he can, it is NOT something we can use as proof/evidence (as using assumption as evidence makes your position flimsy at best). As I said, "feats" are not interchangeable.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Agreed buddy, my issue is not that somebody can win or lose whether going all out or not. I agree somebody can win and show superiority not going for the kill. However, you'd agree that going all out for the kill would open more options and the combatants to potentially be more ruthless. Just how it goes in real life and in general
It does, but as long as you're willing to chop off limbs then it shouldn't effect the fight too much.
A good example is when Ahsoka was brainwashed on Mortis. She took on both Anakin and Obi-Wan because they were obviously holding back A LOT.
Difference there is, they knew none of this was Ahsoka's fault, so they were certainly not willing to chop a bit of her off. Heck they probably didn't even want to leave a bruise on her.
Whilst in a Mace vs Sidious, or Yoda vs Dooku case, it's their preference to capture/arrest their opponent, but they'll hardly cry if they chop off limbs in the process. Heck even killing them would probably be acceptable.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Training helps hone one's abilities with the force and channel/tap into one's rage better.
Yes but Savage hardly had any training. Training is required for years.
A few days/weeks can open them up to a whole new way of accessing their powers (see Luke in ANH destroying the Death Star), but after that it's going to take months before any serious improvement.
He's certainly not going to go from being Massively below Dooku to anywhere close to his level in a few days/weeks. Heck even a few months shouldn't put him there, going from all the Padawans we've seen progress.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
I mean within the same training he managed to lift those rocks, something he couldn't do at the start of it. I'd say it is far more than just 10%.
Actually you're wrong there. Go to 1:30 here:
?v=O2xe9okSSLA
He did lift the same 2 rocks on his first attempt. He just lifted them higher later when Dooku enraged him enough, before he quickly dropped them.
But at the start and end of the session, when he was calmer and much more rage enhanced, he was still not even close to Dooku's level of calmly lifting a dozen+ of those things very high and with total ease.
That's actually proof that even Rage enhanced, Opress is not on Dooku's level of TK.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
I also disagree about "slightly". I believe that Mace's gate "feat" craps on either one of their "feats". Entirely different levels altogether. A few dozen tons vs Over a thousand tons.
Dunno the T-6 that Savage tossed is pretty big:
But yeah you're right Mace's feat is better because he had to rip the gate out.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Also, can't recall Yoda/Sids having similar "feats". The rock lifting "feat" by Dooku on Sav's training (according to a material weight calculator I used) is around 8+ tons for the big rocks and 1+ ton for the small ones so that's pretty impressive. Putting that "feat" nearly in the hundred ton range (assuming you use granite as a basis). Crazy "feat" if you think about it. Which I think is closer to Windu's gate "feat" but IMO still slightly inferior to it.
They're both Crazy feats. We can't really exactly quantify them, but it's clear Dooku and Mace are pretty much on Par in the TK department. There's no reason or evidence to put either of them solidly above the other in that department.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Funny thing is, from what "feats" have been provided, Dooku/Mace now have better force "feats" than either Sids or Yoda at this point (rocks/gate >>> X-Wing).
Which is exactly why we have to Power Scale. It's not about who has shown off the most. It's about how each combatant compares to the other in each individual aspect of combat- Speed, Strength, Fencing skills, Raw TK Power, and more Precise use of TK. Combined with whatever feats we've seen in each of those aspects.
Dooku has far superior feats to Obi-Wan, and he tosses Obi-Wan around with TK, so that makes sense.
But no point in saying Dooku has greater TK feats than Sidious, when Dooku gets force choked by Sidious from another frigging Planet.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Which is why I guess "feats" can be complemented by powerscaling (but NOT overruled by it). You can say that in their fight, Yoda has been shown to be superior to Dooku in the force (just an example, not saying this is what happened), thus even tho Dooku has better "feats", their fight proves that Dooku cannot overwhelm Yoda in a battle force-wise (and the reverse is likely to happen). We, cannot however, assume that Yoda can easily lift hundred-ton rocks because we have never seen him lift hundred-ton rocks. Although, it is a reasonable assumption that he can, it is NOT something we can use as proof/evidence (as using assumption as evidence makes your position flimsy at best). As I said, "feats" are not interchangeable.
They go hand in hand.
Feats are interchangeable to an extent.
If We Know Superman is Stronger than Supergirl, and Supergirl pushes a Planet, then should there be any doubt Superman can push a Planet? Of course not.
On the other hand just because Dooku force chokes Obi-Wan, doesn't mean Mace could, because there was a certain amount of mid-fencing skill and precision involved there, rather than it just being a straight lifting feat.
That said TK would obviously be a huge advantage Mace would have over Obi-Wan given the facts.
Dooku > Mace in sword fighting and imo overall force. IIRC it was also stated that only Dooku and Joda were superior in lightsabres to Mace.
Sidious would stalemate Yoda for a while before going down. I expect Mace to go down first to Dooku though, wich means 2 vs 1.
So Darkside wins.
Yoda >= Sidious > Dooku > Mace
Originally posted by quanchi112
So now Darth troll is claiming Dooku can best Windu.
Lying much?
Originally posted by quanchi112
No one takes you seriously.
Irony much?
Originally posted by quanchi112
You aren't even well versed in Star Wars and apparently just say things for attention.
Super Irony ftw LOL
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Dooku > Mace in sword fighting and imo overall force. IIRC it was also stated that only Dooku and Joda were superior in lightsabres to Mace.Sidious would stalemate Yoda for a while before going down. I expect Mace to go down first to Dooku though, wich means 2 vs 1.
So Darkside wins.
Yoda >= Sidious > Dooku > Mace
Problem here is, you know less about Star Wars than you do comic books, and it shows
