Windu & Yoda vs Tyranus & Sidious

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Dooku could use a lot of room to give ground if he ends up being on the defensive (which he probably will against either opponent).

And Palpatine's not going to lose his Saber through a window. Plus in an open environment, it's easy for him to keep his distance and turn this into more of a Force fight.

Remember Sidous never actually hit Yoda with a Senate Pod. He beat him by keeping his distance and turning it into a Force fight.

Keeping his distance here won't help, atleast as I see it, because the pods (which was instrumental) in keeping distance to Yoda isn't here. Lets recall shall we that the Scrips have Sidious being disarmed by Yoda, which leads to Sidious retreating to the pods in the first place. What I question is what can Sidious (or Dooku for that matter) use to keep their opponent at bay if they get overwhelmed, Lightning? Both Yoda (can deflect with hands) and Mace (with his saber) have shown that they can handle it. Hence I think this will always be decided by each teams skill with a lightsaber, and the arena in which they fight as I see won't have a significant impact.

But we agree on the Jedi's winning so 😛

Originally posted by Utrigita
Keeping his distance here won't help, atleast as I see it, because the pods (which was instrumental) in keeping distance to Yoda isn't here. Lets recall shall we that the Scrips have Sidious being disarmed by Yoda, which leads to Sidious retreating to the pods in the first place.

No the script actually has Yoda retreating after Yoda disarms Sidious, presumably because he was getting overwhelmed by Sidious's force powers.

Originally posted by Utrigita
What I question is what can Sidious (or Dooku for that matter) use to keep their opponent at bay if they get overwhelmed, Lightning? Both Yoda (can deflect with hands) and Mace (with his saber) have shown that they can handle it. Hence I think this will always be decided by each teams skill with a lightsaber, and the arena in which they fight as I see won't have a significant impact.

Mace showed he can "handle" Sidious's FL while screaming, and clearly struggling for his life.

And that was with Sidious from a position lying on his ass right under Mace's blade. And even then he was Faking being weak as per Lucas.

That will be very different here. Mace also won't have 3 Masters to start the fight with. As insignificant as those Masters may have seemed, they did Force Sidious into a tight quarters confrontation with Mace.

Sidious isn't as confined here.

Dooku will be on the defensive against either of these strongmen, and would benefit from all the space.

Originally posted by Utrigita
But we agree on the Jedi's winning so 😛

Yes.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
No the script actually has Yoda retreating after Yoda disarms Sidious, presumably because he was getting overwhelmed by Sidious's force powers.

YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

In that incident after the initial disarm it most certainly doesn't look like Yoda is being overwhelmed by Sidious, but w/e that is just my take on it.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Mace showed he can "handle" Sidious's FL while screaming, and clearly struggling for his life.

And that was with Sidious from a position lying on his ass right under Mace's blade. And even then he was Faking being weak as per Lucas.

That will be very different here. Mace also won't have 3 Masters to start the fight with. As insignificant as those Masters may have seemed, they did Force Sidious into a tight quarters confrontation with Mace.

Sidious isn't as confined here.

Dooku will be on the defensive against either of these strongmen, and would benefit from all the sapce.

I would raise the point that Sidious was struggling damaging Windu as well, unless he actually hoped that the lightning would get deflected back to his face.

And I'll admit that I haven't seen the statement from Lucas concerning Palpatine, I just, when in doubt, go by the script.

But again in agreement.

Originally posted by Utrigita
In that incident after the initial disarm it most certainly doesn't look like Yoda is being overwhelmed by Sidious, but w/e that is just my take on it.

If you carried on reading:

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

YODA: Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.

YODA jumps to a lower Senate Pod.

^ It's Yoda who retreated to another Senate Pod.

Originally posted by Utrigita
I would raise the point that Sidious was struggling damaging Windu as well,

Of course he was. But as I said he was in a pretty disadvantageous position. Right under Mace's balde stuck in a tight environment, with his Saber flown out through a window.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
If you carried on reading:

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

YODA: Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.

YODA jumps to a lower Senate Pod.

^ It's Yoda who retreated to another Senate Pod.

Of course he was. But as I said he was in a pretty disadvantageous position. Right under Mace's balde stuck in a tight environment, with his Saber flown out through a window.

Cool, thanks for clearing that up for me 👆

@ Emperor Sidious.... Only Dooku wouldn't beat Mace... Sorry bud, that is where your position takes a wrong turn. You wrongly believe he's Mace's superior, and he's not.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
@ Emperor Sidious.... Only Dooku wouldn't beat Mace... Sorry bud, that is where your position takes a wrong turn. You wrongly believe he's Mace's superior, and he's not.

Not that I disagree. But is there a particular reason you think that when according to you "Styles make fights."

You believe that even though Mace is Less Powerful than Sidious, and probably couldn't beat Yoda, that he can take Sidious because "Styles make fights" right?

So what makes you so sure that Dooku's style wouldn't make him Mace's equal when facing Mace? I mean Dooku's clearly more Powerful than the likes of Obi-Wan and Darth Maul. So do you not find it plausible for someone as Powerful as him to match (or God forbid even beat) Mace if their Saber styles were to clash right?

Not starting a full out debate or anything, but Just curious as to your logic is all.

No worries DP bro, I like you.

The reason for my position is as follows:

1. Mace already beat somebody that is Dooku clear superior. I could elaborate more on this topic, but you already know the same stuff I do. In the end, Mace beating Sids (even if we say it wouldn't be for a majority like you enjoy saying) Mace beating him sometimes is more than Dooku could do IMO

2. I know you hate the reference to Dooku's style being weak to powerful strikes and it slowly fatigues him. I know you don't like it, and I even kind of think it's lame, but it exists none the less. Suffice to say, Mace delivers powerful strikes, that going by the above, would gradually be wearing out Dooku

3. To build on the above, Mace on the other hand would be gaining stamina "leaching" off of Dooku darkside energy. It's unclear how much of an amp he would get, but suffice to stay, it would be an amp. That amp should squarely put Mace above Dooku. Even in the text you like to point out about Dooku beating Mace in sparring... it notes how close they are in sabers. So if they are already nigh equals... any amp Mace gets... Will tip the fight in his favor virtually all the time.

Even if we say that he's not weak to powerful Kinetic strikes... He would still get fatigued before Mace would... Not only because of Vaapad but simply because Dooku generally seems to tire faster. In the end, I'd agree they are pretty close in power and sabers. IMO though, Mace holds an edge that is measureable. It's not a big gap, but a gap does exists there imo.

^ Fair enough. And I can even agree with most of that.

I don't think Dooku is "weak" to powerful attacks. But I think he gets put on the defensive against Strong foes (providing they're skilled as well), so do agree Dooku would be on the defensive against Mace.

And though he could probably last a good amount of time on the defensive, it would probably just be a matter of time before Windu breaks through those defences with his incredible strength and stamina.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
@ Emperor Sidious.... Only Dooku wouldn't beat Mace... Sorry bud, that is where your position takes a wrong turn. You wrongly believe he's Mace's superior, and he's not.

I'm perfectly fine with either one. To me it's extremely close and hard to determine a winner however I do have one question. How do you know 100% without a doubt that Dooku isn't his superior or would win against Windu. What gives you such a solid...say fact I suppose that Windu woudl beat Dooku. So again I don't see how I am wrong about that as that is my opinion and not just mine but many others as well as a well backed one as both as per the movies have done things of equal or near equal measure, however Mace required special skills to go toe to toe with Sidious while Dooku just had his blade and force powers to challenge Yoda and he didn't ask for help. In fact with an amp possibly not as strong as maces Vaapad on Vjun he was able to contend with Yoda. So really there is a lot of strong evidence that Dooku is in fact his superior however it's speculation on both sides as niether has been canonically said to be above the other. In fact Dooku did beat Mace, however long ago, however before his prime. Windu did increase yes however so to did Dooku. He was known as the academy's most learned student, most powerful in the force most skilled with the blade in I believe it's entire history, and is stated to be the only other one beside Yoda and Sidiois to be able to contend with Mace on even footing. So again I ask how am I wrong to say that Dooki woudl win against mace for a majority. Please explain to me, how this opinion is wrong thus confirming my original thoughts about you.

Just read my post to DP and then you can respond. I would essentially say the same thing. I don't see why you would reference when Dooku was on a Dark Side Nexus.. with Yoda hurt.. and STILL Yoda came off as the superior combatant. You like to talk about how Sids is above Yoda. Well, Mace beat that same person, that beat yoda, who in turn was able to look superior to Dooku while he was amped. See how that works?

The reality is this, Mace would receive an amp when fighting Dooku, said amp would put him squarely above Dooku imo. It's not like this is all conjecture on Mace's abilities and I'm just postulating what he could do. He convincingly beat somebody that is also above Dooku. It comes down to this, you can believe whatever you want, and you're entitled to your opinion. However, what I'm saying is, the evidence more points to Mace being his superior. You can go against what's likely all you want, I choose not to.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Just read my post to DP and then you can respond. I would essentially say the same thing. I don't see why you would reference when Dooku was on a Dark Side Nexus.. with Yoda hurt.. and STILL Yoda came off as the superior combatant. You like to talk about how Sids is above Yoda. Well, Mace beat that same person, that beat yoda, who in turn was able to look superior to Dooku while he was amped. See how that works?

The reality is this, Mace would receive an amp when fighting Dooku, said amp would put him squarely above Dooku imo. It's not like this is all conjecture on Mace's abilities and I'm just postulating what he could do. He convincingly beat somebody that is also above Dooku. It comes down to this, you can believe whatever you want, and you're entitled to your opinion. However, what I'm saying is, the evidence more points to Mace being his superior. You can go against what's likely all you want, I choose not to.

I dunno KT.

The bulk of your argument seems to be based on Mace beating Sidious. Even though you're the one who always argues that it's style that makes fights. That A>B>C>A is a common and normal thing. Which is true, but it's also true that environments play an important part in fights (both in SW and in Real life). Because different environments play to peoples strengths and weaknesses. In fact SW Canon specifically makes note of the effect the environment has when it comes to it's Lightsaber Styles. And that's just the effect on Saber styles, when you start talking Force Powers, the effect of the environment is even larger.

So considering that, all you can really do is look at a wide range of fights and evidences and form a ranking system. And I'm sure the vast majority of people would rank Mace below both Yoda and Sidious overall. Do you agree with that? Because if you do (and almost everyone does) that Yoda and Sidious are the 2 top dogs, then you rank No. 3 between Mace, Dooku and Anakin in the ROTS time period, or just between Dooku and Mace if it's the AOTC time period.

Again most people probably would rank Mace as no.3 based on the fact that he can compete with Sidious as per Lucas. But that of course doesn't mean there's no one else who could beat Mace. Because Lucas never said you need to be Yoda or Sidious to compete with Mace.

And end of the day if the no.3 guy(Mace) can beat the no.1 or no.2 guy(Yoda/Sidious), then what's stopping the no.4 or no.5 guys (Dooku/Anakin) from beating or stalemating the no.3 guy? In fact with a favourable environment, and the right clash of fighting styles, that's bound to happen is it not KT?

Heck Anakin's definitely in the Top 5 but he's already been beaten by someone definitely not in the top 5 (Kenobi). Of course Kenobi taught him, but you get the point right? There's always the danger of getting beaten by the guys ranked just below you.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Just read my post to DP and then you can respond. I would essentially say the same thing. I don't see why you would reference when Dooku was on a Dark Side Nexus.. with Yoda hurt.. and STILL Yoda came off as the superior combatant. You like to talk about how Sids is above Yoda. Well, Mace beat that same person, that beat yoda, who in turn was able to look superior to Dooku while he was amped. See how that works?

The reality is this, Mace would receive an amp when fighting Dooku, said amp would put him squarely above Dooku imo. It's not like this is all conjecture on Mace's abilities and I'm just postulating what he could do. He convincingly beat somebody that is also above Dooku. It comes down to this, you can believe whatever you want, and you're entitled to your opinion. However, what I'm saying is, the evidence more points to Mace being his superior. You can go against what's likely all you want, I choose not to.

I actually don't say Sidious is above Yoda. I have actually explicitly said that I beleive these two are equal, and only if forced to choose a winne woudl I choose Sidious with a 6/10 win. You do understand that Mace had an amp he would never get against any opponent ever again in that fight correct? So him "beating" him which is debatable (however we both know where the other stands on the subject) doesn't show any superiority or at least a solid superiority over Dooku, especially seeing as how at least when Dooku fought Yoda without an Amp, at least he wasn't aloud to live like Windu was. So whether that's just Dookus surgical style or his superiority is up for debate. Really no time has Vaapad ever conclusively beaten an opponent. Mace needed it to just contend with Sidious, and then needed Shatterpoint and the environment to help him through the rest. So all of that being on neutral setting, he wouldn't be nearly as fast, Shatterpoint wouldn't be nearly as powerful, and not nearly as strong, with no where near a good enough amp to take down Dooku. May I remind you that Dooku did fight a Vaapad master Sora Bulq before his turn in which Windu did say that his level of mastery was slightly below his own. SLIGHTLY. So really if Sora couldnt do it, I don't see Mace being able to do it to a much higher level. So while Vaaapd is good for Mace, it's not going to grant him the necessary power to be a game finisher. So really like Thor has said your argument is based off of the Windu vs Sidious fight where Windu received huge advantages not being granted here. Location is different and opponent is different, and his strength, speed stamina, not the same. So I agree this is a really close match up. However I beleive Dooku wins by the thinnest of threads.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
May I remind you that Dooku did fight a Vaapad master Sora Bulq before

To be fair EmperorSidious2 that shouldn't be brought up in this forum, as that's the Old EU. And not Canon to the movies. Same with Yoda beating Dooku on Vjun.

Since this is the Movie Vs forum, so only Movie Canon should be brought up (which included TCW and Lucas's statements pre-Disney, but now includes anything new Disney puts out without the Legends Banner on it).

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I dunno KT.

The bulk of your argument seems to be based on Mace beating Sidious. Even though you're the one who always argues that it's style that makes fights. That A>B>C>A is a common and normal thing. Which is true, but it's also true that environments play an important part in fights (both in SW and in Real life). Because different environments play to peoples strengths and weaknesses. In fact SW Canon specifically makes note of the effect the environment has when it comes to it's Lightsaber Styles. And that's just the effect on Saber styles, when you start talking Force Powers, the effect of the environment is even larger.

So considering that, all you can really do is look at a wide range of fights and evidences and form a ranking system. And I'm sure the vast majority of people would rank Mace below both Yoda and Sidious overall. Do you agree with that? Because if you do (and almost everyone does) that Yoda and Sidious are the 2 top dogs, then you rank No. 3 between Mace, Dooku and Anakin in the ROTS time period, or just between Dooku and Mace if it's the AOTC time period.

Again most people probably would rank Mace as no.3 based on the fact that he can compete with Sidious as per Lucas. But that of course doesn't mean there's no one else who could beat Mace. Because Lucas never said you need to be Yoda or Sidious to compete with Mace.

And end of the day if the no.3 guy(Mace) can beat the no.1 or no.2 guy(Yoda/Sidious), then what's stopping the no.4 or no.5 guys (Dooku/Anakin) from beating or stalemating the no.3 guy? In fact with a favourable environment, and the right clash of fighting styles, that's bound to happen is it not KT?

Heck Anakin's definitely in the Top 5 but he's already been beaten by someone definitely not in the top 5 (Kenobi). Of course Kenobi taught him, but you get the point right? There's always the danger of getting beaten by the guys ranked just below you.

I don't have a lot of issues with some of the stuff you say, but I believe that stuff, leads us Mace being greater than Dooku. You're right, a big part of why I have Mace above Dooku, is for his ability against Darksiders. This is exemplified by his fight with Sidious. So of course I would use that fight to illustrate what Mace can do against inferior Darksiders. Styles do make fights, and that makes this fight even more conclusive to me.

Dooku would have no choice but to fight on the defensive against Mace, just like he would Sidious. I don't think Dooku is best when he's fighting that way. Mace forcing him to fight that way, is a styles make fights issue, and one that, imo favors Mace.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You're right, a big part of why I have Mace above Dooku, is for his ability against Darksiders. This is exemplified by his fight with Sidious. So of course I would use that fight to illustrate what Mace can do against inferior Darksiders.

Think we need more examples of that in action tbh. Not sure how well it'd work on a Darksider whose already equally as Powerful as Mace and fighting defensively. I mean I'd expect if Mace got an Amp from any Darksider regardless of their Power and Style then he'd stomp Darth Maul immediately. But he didn't. It was only a very short fight, but if that's how Vapaad works I'd expect better than Maul defending against Mace while booting another Jedi in the face. (That's right Mace had help from another Jedi).

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Styles do make fights, and that makes this fight even more conclusive to me.

Styles making fights, The whole A>B>C>A thing Sidious>>Dooku=Mace>/=Sidious could work here.

Because if Dooku fights defensively against Mace (someone whose not more Powerful than him in Force Powers as far as I can tell), then it would be a very long drawn out battle. Because Dooku uses precision and footwork to deflect, evade and give ground against Stronger opponents. And Dooku can simultaneously use his free hand to use Tk to help him keep Mace at bay.

Whilst if Dooku fights defensively against Sidious, that would be suicide, because it wouldn't take long for Sidious to Stomp Dooku with TK. You HAVE to be on the Offensive against Sidious and all over him (like Mace would try to be). Not to mention any Tk attacks with Dooku's free hand would pretty much be laughed off by Sidious.

So styles making fights definitely gives Dooku a much better chance against Mace than he would have against Sidious. In fact he'd have Zero hope against Sidious. He'd have a very small chance of defeating Mace, but quite a good chance of drawing out a fight with Mace to a possible stalemate IMO. If not a Stalemate, then Mace winning after a very long and hard fight.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I don't think Dooku is best when he's fighting that way. Mace forcing him to fight that way, is a styles make fights issue, and one that, imo favors Mace.

Not sure why you think that. Dooku fought that way against Anakin and Obi-Wan combined in TCW Season 6, deflecting their attacks with 1 hand, and using his free hand for openings for physical/TK attacks.

He basically stalemated them toegther both like that.

I've seen him fight best like that tbh. And the defensive element is a big part of his style, being too elegant to be laying on a Powerful Offensive all the time.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Think we need more examples of that in action tbh. Not sure how well it'd work on a Darksider whose already equally as Powerful as Mace and fighting defensively. I mean I'd expect if Mace got an Amp from any Darksider regardless of their Power and Style then he'd stomp Darth Maul immediately. But he didn't. It was only a very short fight, but if that's how Vapaad works I'd expect better than Maul defending against Mace while booting another Jedi in the face. (That's right Mace had help from another Jedi).

Styles making fights, The whole A>B>C>A thing Sidious>>Dooku=Mace>/=Sidious could work here.

Because if Dooku fights defensively against Mace (someone whose not more Powerful than him in Force Powers as far as I can tell), then it would be a very long drawn out battle. Because Dooku uses precision and footwork to deflect, evade and give ground against Stronger opponents. And Dooku can simultaneously use his free hand to use Tk to help him keep Mace at bay.

Whilst if Dooku fights defensively against Sidious, that would be suicide, because it wouldn't take long for Sidious to Stomp Dooku with TK. You HAVE to be on the Offensive against Sidious and all over him (like Mace would try to be). Not to mention any Tk attacks with Dooku's free hand would pretty much be laughed off by Sidious.

So styles making fights definitely gives Dooku a much better chance against Mace than he would have against Sidious. In fact he'd have Zero hope against Sidious. He'd have a very small chance of defeating Mace, but quite a good chance of drawing out a fight with Mace to a possible stalemate IMO. If not a Stalemate, then Mace winning after a very long and hard fight.

Not sure why you think that. Dooku fought that way against Anakin and Obi-Wan combined in TCW Season 6, deflecting their attacks with 1 hand, and using his free hand for openings for physical/TK attacks.

He basically stalemated them toegther both like that.

I've seen him fight best like that tbh. And the defensive element is a big part of his style, being too elegant to be laying on a Powerful Offensive all the time.

See, I don't agree with Dooku fighting fine that way for long. Sure, he's expert enough that he can do so, but so can Kenobi... that doesn't make him able to beat Mace fighting that way. Again, we just can't get around the fact that on multi occasions Dooku has looked winded and out of breath and been referenced as such. With Mace constantly leaching energy from him... It's very very easy to see how Dooku wouldn't be able to last long on the defensive. If Mace didn't deliver powerful strikes, sure, but he does.

Your reference to the 2 vs. 1 against Dooku seems a little suspect considering, again, he was tiring and was stated to be. It was made clear he wouldn't have been able to last like that, and he had to separate them in order to gain his advantage. So I just don't see that as a good example to use.

Just to illustrate how fast Mace can get and how an amp can help him... Somebody with Anakin awesome perception and speed himself.. couldn't even perceive Mace he was fighting Sidious so fast. We're talking about a person who one v one beat dooku and had no issue seeing his strikes. That same person couldn't even perceive Mace. That speaks volumes about how Mace can be "leagues" above Dooku in that mode.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
See, I don't agree with Dooku fighting fine that way for long. Sure, he's expert enough that he can do so, but so can Kenobi... that doesn't make him able to beat Mace fighting that way.

Dooku is a faster, more powerful and more skilled combatant than Kenobi. Of course Windu would eventually break through Kenobi's defenses, although it might take a while in a pure saber match up, but in an all out Windu's going to end up Tk smashing Kenobi much sooner.

Plus like I said Dooku while fighting (especially while on the defense), keeps a hand free for simultaneous TK attacks. That will only further aid in fending off Mace for a long drawn out match.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Again, we just can't get around the fact that on multi occasions Dooku has looked winded and out of breath and been referenced as such.

Against who? He was only "referenced" as such when fighting off Kenobi and Skywalker together in ROTS. May I remind you than Anakin alone by this time had been stated to be a duelist on a similar tier with Yoda, Sidious and Mace by the stunt coordinator?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
With Mace constantly leaching energy from him... It's very very easy to see how Dooku wouldn't be able to last long on the defensive.

Again not entirely convinced on how Vapaad would work. Did he keep leaching energy from Sidious until Sidious went down? No. He was said to deflect the dark power that was being aimed at Mace back onto Sidious.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Your reference to the 2 vs. 1 against Dooku seems a little suspect considering, again, he was tiring and was stated to be. It was made clear he wouldn't have been able to last like that, and he had to separate them in order to gain his advantage. So I just don't see that as a good example to use.

Not talking about the Revenge of the Sith fight. Anakin was too powerful on his own by then.

Talking about this fight:

?v=9pI8IkWa3LQ

^ As you can see, Dooku is clearly the fastest and most skilled combatant there.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Just to illustrate how fast Mace can get and how an amp can help him... Somebody with Anakin awesome perception and speed himself.. couldn't even perceive Mace he was fighting Sidious so fast. We're talking about a person who one v one beat dooku and had no issue seeing his strikes. That same person couldn't even perceive Mace. That speaks volumes about how Mace can be "leagues" above Dooku in that mode.

Not canon because Anakin never saw Mace and Sidious fight in the film.

Not to mention that kind of speed disparity would make no sense at all seen as Dooku has already fought off Sidious's equal- Yoda.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Dooku is a faster, more powerful and more skilled combatant than Kenobi. Of course Windu would eventually break through Kenobi's defenses, although it might take a while in a pure saber match up, but in an all out Windu's going to end up Tk smashing Kenobi much sooner.

Plus like I said Dooku while fighting (especially while on the defense), keeps a hand free for simultaneous TK attacks. That will only further aid in fending off Mace for a long drawn out match.

Against who? He was only "referenced" as such when fighting off Kenobi and Skywalker together in ROTS. May I remind you than Anakin alone by this time had been stated to be a duelist on a similar tier with Yoda, Sidious and Mace by the stunt coordinator?

Again not entirely convinced on how Vapaad would work. Did he keep leaching energy from Sidious until Sidious went down? No. He was said to deflect the dark power that was being aimed at Mace back onto Sidious.

Not talking about the Revenge of the Sith fight. Anakin was too powerful on his own by then.

Talking about this fight:

?v=9pI8IkWa3LQ

^ As you can see, Dooku is clearly the fastest and most skilled combatant there.

Not canon because Anakin never saw Mace and Sidious fight in the film.

Not to mention that kind of speed disparity would make no sense at all seen as Dooku has already fought off Sidious's equal- Yoda.

The point is buddy, nobody said he can't last "long" and would be beaten quickly. What I am saying is, he wouldn't last longer than Yoda or Sidiious in their fight. It doesn't matter "how" long he last, it will be shorter than the winner of Sidious vs. Yoda

He was referenced to be tired in the ROTS as you are well aware. He was also VISIBLY catching his breath after dispatching of Anakin in the AOTC movie fight. Even in his fight vs. Yoda on vjun... He was referenced as tiring if I'm not mistaken. Point is, his stamina clearly isn't on par with Windu normally... let alone if Mace is replenishing his energy with Vaapad... Would you not agree?

It honestly doesn't matter how much of an amp Mace would get. When you're talking about two people very close in skills and power... any slight amp could imo make all the difference in the world

That is a poor fight to use considering Mace is above either of Kenobi's or Anakin's clone wars versions. He would replicate the feat just the same. Dooku holding is own against those two is < than him having to beat Mace.

Lastly my friend... You and I both know it's canon. Do you honestly think Disney buying the franchise changes that? I don't. They can say whatever they want about what is or what isn't canon, in the end they can't tell me how to use logic and my brain. They had absolutely nothing to do with the Franchise when the movie was made and the book written. Lucas had all the authority for both and decided it was canon. HIs view on those older material is 100% more of an authority to Disney. Going forward, sure Disney can say how things go and they will make movies as such. They will be the authority. But don't tell me somebody that had nothing to do with canon back then... is somehow more important than Lucas. Anyways, the point still stands, he couldn't perceive Mace he was fighting so fast. That is above anything Dooku could match if Mace got that kind of amp. He probably wouldn't off of Dooku.. but he would get some, and that some should be enough

Really the part about what's canon and what isn't for how fast Sidious can move, IMO, is that Sidious can move that fast, but Anakin wasn't there to see it, so there was no eye witness to that speed. However Windu could only move that fast under specific circumstances. His inner darkness was at an all time high due to the republic he loved, basically betrayed him, and he was going up against Sidious, someone with an immense hatred of the Jedi. He wouldn't have nearly the same of either and it's not like Dooku lets off an extreme amount of Dark energy, so not really just enough to tip the scales in his favor.