Windu & Yoda vs Tyranus & Sidious

It is also stated that Windu was barley able to hold Palpatines lightning back, his lightsaber was beginning to bend towards his face in fact, Sidious held back and could have killed Windu with that at any time but he chose not to because he wanted Anakin to be forced to make a choice.

I get it that you have some solid reasoning as to why Sidious would have lost that fight but it just doesnt jive with the character of Palpatine that we have seen thus far in the story:

Sidious is an expert strategist and planner, he can forsee the future these are things that are known facts about the character. So why tell Anakin he's a Sith at all? He could have just executed Order 66 at any time after becoming Supreme Commander of the Army but he didn't because he wanted Anakin as his final apprentice.

So he knew the Jedi would come for him, he was ready for that after telling Anakin the truth, you think a guy like that would leave a fight with Windu to chance without a game plan in mind? What happens to his plan to turn Anakin if he walks into the room and Sidious has just killed 4 Jedi easy peezy?

Him throwing the fight lines up perfectly with his plan to turn Anakin as well as fits perfectly with the characters MO. Trickery and deceit are the Siths ways...

If you want to reference the novels it says that Mace felt Palpatines shatterpoint and that supposedly gave him upper hand but what he failed to realize was that Sidious was channeling Anakins fear and doubt through himself and deceiving Mace in the process.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
There is bro. The latest source book from Disney confirms them. And there's very little difference to the old EU forms.

One of the forms was even mentioned in Rebels.

Also of note is that even before the Disney purchase TCW was always very faithful to the Forms in the way it portrayed the combatants. Kenobi was time and time again been portrayed as a "defensive" fighter, and Dooku as a one handed fencer.

thanks, I didn't know if they had kept all that as canon or not

Originally posted by relentless1
thanks, I didn't know if they had kept all that as canon or not

There's slight differences, and since more emphasis on some factors such as environmental influences, which I always argued plays a big part in SW fights.

But on the whole they're very similar to the old SW Eu Saber forms.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Which novel states that? The AOTC Novel doesn't as far as I remember.

He says "Capture him we must" in the novel. Although that might be over ridden by the movie dialogue. In any case there's no issue there, as even Mace attempted to "Arrest" Palpatine, and not kill him. You don't honestly think that means Mace was holding back do you?

Not mentioned in the novel, but hinted at in TCW. But again Yoda won't let that stop him doing what he has to do. He is the Ultimate Jedi Master after all.

Note- Whatever releationship Yoda had with Dooku, I doubt it was stronger than the connection Kenobi had with Skywalker, but that didn't stop Kenobi doing what he needed to do.

The Force fight seemed quite casual for him, but doubt the Saber fight was.

Really can't disagree with much of anything you said bud.

All I will say is... mace going to arrest Sids is much much different than yoda going to arrest his former padawan. That is something you'd surely agree to. One could go for the kill quite easily, the other, would have more reservations.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I have a question for you. What if Lucas never said Windu "overcame" Sidious or "overpowered" him? The scene plays out exactly the same way except he never says that. We still see Sidious get his lightsaber kicked out of his hand, and Sidious on the ground. So what difference does it make that he says those. Really and absolutely nothing. He's just describing that particular moment. He's not settling a debate, he's not determining a winner, he's describing a scene. So those two words don't destroy, crush, or take down anything they simply show him doing his job as a director and describe the scene. Ok I'm going to do what you do. All the evidence lies with me. You can watch the movie and obviously tell Sidious won the fight. There is no doubt in question Sidious threw the fight to get Anakin to the dark side which is canonically proven. The novel speciffacly states that Windu felt Anakins presence before he even got to the room, so that woudl mean Sidious would too since his powers in the force and foresight Are much greater than Windu's correct? The official site says it was something shady of that battle. Anakin walks in the moment Sidious is in the perfect position. Sidious knows he's the only way to save Padme and he knows Anakin knows this. I have more proof on my side, so Sidious threw the fight, end of story. Majority u fo the proof lies with me, game over. You can choose to live in that fantasy land where Widnu could actually beat the Emperor, but that's all it will ever be is a fantasy land. Also it's canocially confirmed Sidious had two sabers in ROTS so he could have pulled that saber out and kept on fighting.

Even if Lucas never said that.. the proof still lies on my side. We still have

1. It never once, not ever was it stated Sids threw the fight... Not iin the novel.. script.. Movie... no place. They added so much dialogue in all these places to outlay the plot and even go into detail about what somebody was thinking. Stuff the movie didn't even go into. Yet, there is NOTHING about throwing a fight.

2. We have the novel explicitly stating Sids attacking windu will all his dark might. That directly contradicts any theory that he threw the fight

3. We still have Sids literally and without an ambiguity saying No, NO YOU WILL DIE!!! As he fires lighting at Mace.. not just average lighting... but a sustained barrage of lighting so powerful it deformed him and made mace barely able to keep the blade away from his face. This brings up two points

A. How does Sidious know Mace could hold it back or would be able to block it in general, let alone for a sustained period of time. He never dueled Mace before and would have zero knowledge on whether he could or not. For something Mace was barely able to keep off of him... that seems to be cutting oddly close and doing a lot fo guess work for somebody who according to some is a great planner. He had zero way of knowing Mace could hold out... what if he couldn't.. Then where is his plan

B. Sidious had ZERO way of knowing that Mace would also resist killing him. He had no way of knowing that. Why would he leave himself helpless with a sword to his throat and able to kill him at any point.. That seems like a really big chance to take without somebody he's dealt with very little. Sids is the dark lord he's trained his whole life to combat and kill. That same lord was in fact in more control that he had originally feared. That same sith lord just killed 3 of his friends. Yet he knew Mace would hold his sword... Nope, don't buy it. Doesn't make sense. He would have zero way to know that.

C. When Sidious was VISIBLY trying to strike him down during the saber fight. what happens if Mace is unable to block it. Why increase your speed via the force... and move so fast that Mace has to amp his speed just to compete. So fast, that even Anakin can't perceive him. If he's trying to throwing the fight why would he amp himself so much. Do you see boxer trying to throw a fight by going for a KO or fighting awesomely? Of course not, yet that is what you're expecting me to believe that here. Not for one second does that make sense to me. If you're trying to throw the fight... You don't start increasing your speed dramatically and throw deadly saber strikes at someone. What if they mess up and don't block it? Then what? Where is his great plan then? See, it all just doesn't make logical sense.

All of the above is WITHOUT Lucas DIRECT and unambiguous statement that Mace beat Sids. Honestly guys, just accept it, he lost. Jesus

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Even if Lucas never said that.. the proof still lies on my side. We still have

1. It never once, not ever was it stated Sids threw the fight... Not iin the novel.. script.. Movie... no place. They added so much dialogue in all these places to outlay the plot and even go into detail about what somebody was thinking. Stuff the movie didn't even go into. Yet, there is NOTHING about throwing a fight.

2. We have the novel explicitly stating Sids attacking windu will all his dark might. That directly contradicts any theory that he threw the fight

3. We still have Sids literally and without an ambiguity saying No, NO YOU WILL DIE!!! As he fires lighting at Mace.. not just average lighting... but a sustained barrage of lighting so powerful it deformed him and made mace barely able to keep the blade away from his face. This brings up two points

A. How does Sidious know Mace could hold it back or would be able to block it in general, let alone for a sustained period of time. He never dueled Mace before and would have zero knowledge on whether he could or not. For something Mace was barely able to keep off of him... that seems to be cutting oddly close and doing a lot fo guess work for somebody who according to some is a great planner. He had zero way of knowing Mace could hold out... what if he couldn't.. Then where is his plan

B. Sidious had ZERO way of knowing that Mace would also resist killing him. He had no way of knowing that. Why would he leave himself helpless with a sword to his throat and able to kill him at any point.. That seems like a really big chance to take without somebody he's dealt with very little. Sids is the dark lord he's trained his whole life to combat and kill. That same lord was in fact in more control that he had originally feared. That same sith lord just killed 3 of his friends. Yet he knew Mace would hold his sword... Nope, don't buy it. Doesn't make sense. He would have zero way to know that.

C. When Sidious was VISIBLY trying to strike him down during the saber fight. what happens if Mace is unable to block it. Why increase your speed via the force... and move so fast that Mace has to amp his speed just to compete. So fast, that even Anakin can't perceive him. If he's trying to throwing the fight why would he amp himself so much. Do you see boxer trying to throw a fight by going for a KO or fighting awesomely? Of course not, yet that is what you're expecting me to believe that here. Not for one second does that make sense to me. If you're trying to throw the fight... You don't start increasing your speed dramatically and throw deadly saber strikes at someone. What if they mess up and don't block it? Then what? Where is his great plan then? See, it all just doesn't make logical sense.

All of the above is WITHOUT Lucas DIRECT and unambiguous statement that Mace beat Sids. Honestly guys, just accept it, he lost. Jesus

Ok let me ask you this.

1. Does everything need to be explicitly stated for you? You rant on and on about logical thinking, so where does that come in. Does everything need to be explicitly stated for you?

2. Actually no it doesn't. The only thing it contradicts is anyone who says that Sidious wasn't going all out.

3. Isn't that after the duel where, he is basically in a playing possum mode where Lucas states that he is faking weKness and where the novel explicitly says that Sidious was bending Windu's saber? So really he could have just bent it to kill Windu since we know he was faking weakness so not like he was legitimately down. You see evidence works both ways my friend.

A. There is a passage in the novel Shatterpoint where Sidious learns of Vaapad form Wimdu himself. I shall post the video where I received this information so you may read it for yourself. https://youtu.be/thsFbDtLrVg 3:55 So yes he knows about Vaapad and I'm pretty sure that once he sent it and it pushed back on him, I'm pretty sure you know that yes this guy can take it and send it back which was exactly what Sidious wanted.

B. You do understand that he can see into the future correct. You do understand that right. Also he wouldn't need to. The exact moment Sidious was on the ground and the exact moment Windu had his blade right on top of him was the moment that Anakin walked in. Also he wouldn't need to know. He had the force so if anything went out of plan he had a backup option. Sidious is a master manipulator. Also the Soth of Banes line aren't trained killers. They are trained MANIPULATORS more than killers. May I remind you of Sidious entire political career.

C. I love this point because it's possibly the railway one to refute. Considering the Movie>Book what happens their is more than what happens in the book. Also Novel only canon where it aligns with the Movie. Notice in the first part of the battle Sidious has Mace at sword point and could have killed, but gave it up. Why? https://youtu.be/YBLcxXR1PMw 1:06-1:07 Sidious has him at sword point, but doesn't send the killing blow. Well really it would be Mace who woudl amp up first. He already can't compete with Sidious. Without Vaapad, he wouldn't have been blitzed like the other masters, but he would have lasted about the same time Dooku did with his battle with Yoda. So with that it woudl be Windu to amp up his seed first and Sidious woudl adjust accordingly. This is pretty much common sense, not sure how you aren't getting it.

So all of these points are weak defenses to your apparent fledgling argument. All of this is completely ,and honestly just crappy on your part. All of the questions you ask are pretty much answered except you have put yourself into such a mindset that you're right so you don't accept any other opinion. You should fix that before I embarrass you. I await your response to this. Pretty good argument on my part if I do say so myself. Well said and well backed with evidence. Also I ask again why didn't Sidious pull out his second saber if Widnu won? He Cousy have kept going, he's gotten out of worse scrapes than that with Yoda.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Ok let me ask you this.

1. Does everything need to be explicitly stated for you? You rant on and on about logical thinking, so where does that come in. Does everything need to be explicitly stated for you?

2. Actually no it doesn't. The only thing it contradicts is anyone who says that Sidious wasn't going all out.

3. Isn't that after the duel where, he is basically in a playing possum mode where Lucas states that he is faking weKness and where the novel explicitly says that Sidious was bending Windu's saber? So really he could have just bent it to kill Windu since we know he was faking weakness so not like he was legitimately down. You see evidence works both ways my friend.

A. There is a passage in the novel Shatterpoint where Sidious learns of Vaapad form Wimdu himself. I shall post the video where I received this information so you may read it for yourself. https://youtu.be/thsFbDtLrVg 3:55 So yes he knows about Vaapad and I'm pretty sure that once he sent it and it pushed back on him, I'm pretty sure you know that yes this guy can take it and send it back which was exactly what Sidious wanted.

B. You do understand that he can see into the future correct. You do understand that right. Also he wouldn't need to. The exact moment Sidious was on the ground and the exact moment Windu had his blade right on top of him was the moment that Anakin walked in. Also he wouldn't need to know. He had the force so if anything went out of plan he had a backup option. Sidious is a master manipulator. Also the Soth of Banes line aren't trained killers. They are trained MANIPULATORS more than killers. May I remind you of Sidious entire political career.

C. I love this point because it's possibly the railway one to refute. Considering the Movie>Book what happens their is more than what happens in the book. Also Novel only canon where it aligns with the Movie. Notice in the first part of the battle Sidious has Mace at sword point and could have killed, but gave it up. Why? https://youtu.be/YBLcxXR1PMw 1:06-1:07 Sidious has him at sword point, but doesn't send the killing blow. Well really it would be Mace who woudl amp up first. He already can't compete with Sidious. Without Vaapad, he wouldn't have been blitzed like the other masters, but he would have lasted about the same time Dooku did with his battle with Yoda. So with that it woudl be Windu to amp up his seed first and Sidious woudl adjust accordingly. This is pretty much common sense, not sure how you aren't getting it.

So all of these points are weak defenses to your apparent fledgling argument. All of this is completely ,and honestly just crappy on your part. All of the questions you ask are pretty much answered except you have put yourself into such a mindset that you're right so you don't accept any other opinion. You should fix that before I embarrass you. I await your response to this. Pretty good argument on my part if I do say so myself. Well said and well backed with evidence. Also I ask again why didn't Sidious pull out his second saber if Widnu won? He Cousy have kept going, he's gotten out of worse scrapes than that with Yoda.

Are you being serious here? I refuse to believe it. You literally said nothing of substance. You answered nothing, let alone logically, and yet you come back with... This was a great post? wtf is going on here.

You have zero evidence he knew windu would hold his blade and not kill Mace. Your argument you claim is so great against that is that it's the moment Anakin walked in? What? Who cares. Anakin walking in would change nothing. Either mace would go for the kill or he wouldn't. Plain and simple. Anakin could do nothing about it at that point.

What's worse that just illustrates my point further. If Sids was trying to feign weakness.. Why would he all of a sudden go DIE DIE and fire lighting at Mace as Anakin walking in? He was already on the ground.. sword to this chest.. no weapon in hand. That wasn't weak enough? Instead, you claim he needs to go NO.. NO YOU WILL DIE!!! and fire a sustained lighting blast at Mace? This would show weakness to impress Anakin? This great genius and manipulator didn't realize he was already dead to rights? Oh let me guess, he knew Mace wouldn't, knew Anakin wouldn't assist in his capture, that firing lighting would end up making him look weak, mace would be strong enough and powerful to take a sustained lighting blast.. .one that fried your own face and barely was kept away from mace's face... RIGHTTTTTTT. Yeah that is all totally logical. This is just the added evidence to the already damming canon evidence.

Your next great point is that Sids knew of vaapad and thus what??? Who gives a flying f about it.. he didn't study it.. he didn't master it.. he never fought anybody who used it.. let alone as proficient as Mace is with it. To say nothing of the fact that knowing about something and studying is a far cry from fighting a master of it. They are worlds apart. So no, I reject the notion that Sids knowing of it, somehow prepared him for what he was about to face. To say nothing of not even knowing EXACTLY how good Mace is. It's like you don't live in this world. Watch boxing, people get talked up all the time, but get in the ring and look like shit. There could be all the talk and lore of Windu you can imagine.. that doesn't for one second mean Sids would have any clue exactly how good he was. Not like he fought Yoda or other top masters to prepare himself for the fight. You call this a good point on your part? I'm sorry it's not.

Anyways, I think we've circled around this over and over. You know, and I know, the proof is on my side. Crying and whining about it changes nothing.

you've provided no more proof than we have kurupt thanosi and just because you say yours is valid means nothing. In fact it means less than nothing because youre so obtuse about your views on this. Frankly theres more proof here that Sidious was manipulating the entire situation in order to turn Anakin, anybody thats watched ROTS will tell you the same

You mean other than lucas' own clear words? That alone is exponentially more proof than any sids apologist has cited. There is simply no way around that fact bud

Lucas also claims that Greedo shot first, you buy that too?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You mean other than lucas' own clear words? That alone is exponentially more proof than any sids apologist has cited. There is simply no way around that fact bud

This is clearly not the case when the Official Site itself questions it. And pretty much every other Canon statement on the fight states Windu Appeared to have gained the upper hand. Not that Mace Simply Won, and had Sidious at his mercy..

Btw I personally believe Windu won the Saber fight, though I think it was a One Off due to environmental and contextual circumstances. But to say only Sid apologists say Sids might have thrown the fight is:

1) Claiming the Official Site is written by Sids Apologists and
2) Hypocritical of you then to say Yoda held back on Dooku. Wouldn't that make you a Yoda apologist then?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Really can't disagree with much of anything you said bud.

All I will say is... mace going to arrest Sids is much much different than yoda going to arrest his former padawan. That is something you'd surely agree to. One could go for the kill quite easily, the other, would have more reservations.

👆

Like I said though, Kenobi vs Anakin. Fighting his Padawan didn't stop Kenobi chopping off limbs, so I don't see why that would stop/hold back the Ultimate Jedi Master.

I mean at least Kenobi tried to reason with Anakin and begged him not to make that jump. Yoda didn't try talking Dooku back to the Light Side at all. He first just "tested" His powers to see if he had indeed embraced the dark side. Once that was clear Yoda being the Ultimate Jedi knew there was no going back for him.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
This is clearly not the case when the Official Site itself questions it. And pretty much every other Canon statement on the fight states Windu Appeared to have gained the upper hand. Not that Mace Simply Won, and had Sidious at his mercy..

Btw I personally believe Windu won the Saber fight, though I think it was a One Off due to environmental and contextual circumstances. But to say only Sid apologists say Sids might have thrown the fight is:

1) Claiming the Official Site is written by Sids Apologists and
2) Hypocritical of you then to say Yoda held back on Dooku. Wouldn't that make you a Yoda apologist then?

This is being disingenuous and you know it. First, that line was added years later.. and I mean years later. Second, to even compare a line on the official site, to Lucas' own clear unambiguous statement is nonsensical. Not only logically are they not even close to the same level of canon or importance, it doesn't even make logical sense to try compare the two. Lucas' was clear, and very clear, when he said Mace overpowered him. That is way more clear and important than a star wars site saying... Things looked kind of suspicious Sorry, they aren't close to the same.

If you're going to subdue somebody and not kill them, yes, that could very well mean you're holding back. It should be obvious that going for the kill means you'll try other options and be more ruthless about it. That just stands to reason. Again though, I wouldn't be a Yoda apologist because Yoda came off superior in that fight. What would I have to apologize for? Me thinking yoda might have held back a little, is a far far cry from, people saying Sids threw the entire fight and could've won whenever he choose to. Those two aren't even in the same stratosphere on apologizing bud and you know it.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Are you being serious here? I refuse to believe it. You literally said nothing of substance. You answered nothing, let alone logically, and yet you come back with... This was a great post? wtf is going on here.

You have zero evidence he knew windu would hold his blade and not kill Mace. Your argument you claim is so great against that is that it's the moment Anakin walked in? What? Who cares. Anakin walking in would change nothing. Either mace would go for the kill or he wouldn't. Plain and simple. Anakin could do nothing about it at that point.

What's worse that just illustrates my point further. If Sids was trying to feign weakness.. Why would he all of a sudden go DIE DIE and fire lighting at Mace as Anakin walking in? He was already on the ground.. sword to this chest.. no weapon in hand. That wasn't weak enough? Instead, you claim he needs to go NO.. NO YOU WILL DIE!!! and fire a sustained lighting blast at Mace? This would show weakness to impress Anakin? This great genius and manipulator didn't realize he was already dead to rights? Oh let me guess, he knew Mace wouldn't, knew Anakin wouldn't assist in his capture, that firing lighting would end up making him look weak, mace would be strong enough and powerful to take a sustained lighting blast.. .one that fried your own face and barely was kept away from mace's face... RIGHTTTTTTT. Yeah that is all totally logical. This is just the added evidence to the already damming canon evidence.

Your next great point is that Sids knew of vaapad and thus what??? Who gives a flying f about it.. he didn't study it.. he didn't master it.. he never fought anybody who used it.. let alone as proficient as Mace is with it. To say nothing of the fact that knowing about something and studying is a far cry from fighting a master of it. They are worlds apart. So no, I reject the notion that Sids knowing of it, somehow prepared him for what he was about to face. To say nothing of not even knowing EXACTLY how good Mace is. It's like you don't live in this world. Watch boxing, people get talked up all the time, but get in the ring and look like shit. There could be all the talk and lore of Windu you can imagine.. that doesn't for one second mean Sids would have any clue exactly how good he was. Not like he fought Yoda or other top masters to prepare himself for the fight. You call this a good point on your part? I'm sorry it's not.

Anyways, I think we've circled around this over and over. You know, and I know, the proof is on my side. Crying and whining about it changes nothing.

See here you go again acting like I'm the one whose wrong. I've demonstrated solid evidence for my side and you still rant your stubbornness. Let beat you once again.

Why would he need to know in advance? The moment he shot Windu and it was being reflected back at him, one can figure out that Windu could hold it for a substantial period of time. Also Sidious was bending his blade back at Windu yet stopped? So your entire point here is now crushed as this shows that he had a solid idea. Also he knew about Vaapad as I've already posted in my last post. Also what do you mean Anakin could do nothing about it. He CUT OFF WINDUS ARM.

You do understand his confirmed finning of weakness was after we see his nasty face correct? The first part was to be in a vulnerable position, then reveal his true face which to Anakin woudl gain his sympathy. You are once again wrong. Sidious did have a second blade as confirmed by Dave Filoni. So he had a second blade, but why not pull it out the moment he gets disarmed and we've seen how fast he can pull a saber out. He's a master of the force, so if he's just there without using his force powers what does that show. Also it could be that Windu said you have lost and that didn't go to well with Sidious so he shot lightning and guess what he almost killed Windu but didn't, so again what are you arguing. So really this entire paragraph is you questioning whether he was faking weakness which Lucas has already said so there is no real way around it.

You idiot. If you know about it and it's explained you know what to be ready for. If you I know of someone's fighting style and they actually explain it to you about what it can do you do know what it does and can prepare how to fight it. This is you worst attempt yet. The only difference woudl be that Sidiosu hasn't mastered it to the same depth as Windu, that's it. Mace fought sora a less proficient Vaapad master and guess what the baattle ended in a stalemate. Same with Deepa except wait didn't mace suffer more in that battle? Sidious knew about the style from the best master of it. He knows what it is cable of, doesn't master of he practiced it or not, all that means is that he just can pt use it. He can certainly gage how powerful Windu is. Also why should Sidious care, he's better than Windu so why should he care how powerful he is. All he should worry about is Yoda. If he here's that Widnu is on level of Dooku he knows damn well that Mace can't compete and then at the beginning of the duel Sidious already pushes Mace to his last leg at the first second, even letting him live.

So once again you fail to make your point and even come close to winning. You have lost.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2

So once again you fail to make your point and even come close to winning. You have lost.

NO NO YOUUU WILL DIEEEE 😄

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This is being disingenuous and you know it. First, that line was added years later.. and I mean years later. Second, to even compare a line on the official site, to Lucas' own clear unambiguous statement is nonsensical. Not only logically are they not even close to the same level of canon or importance, it doesn't even make logical sense to try compare the two. Lucas' was clear, and very clear, when he said Mace overpowered him. That is way more clear and important than a star wars site saying... Things looked kind of suspicious Sorry, they aren't close to the same.

If you're going to subdue somebody and not kill them, yes, that could very well mean you're holding back. It should be obvious that going for the kill means you'll try other options and be more ruthless about it. That just stands to reason. Again though, I wouldn't be a Yoda apologist because Yoda came off superior in that fight. What would I have to apologize for? Me thinking yoda might have held back a little, is a far far cry from, people saying Sids threw the entire fight and could've won whenever he choose to. Those two aren't even in the same stratosphere on apologizing bud and you know it.

I'm not sure how being how being written years later is supposed to prove it false. In terms of contradictions newest is more important than oldest. Because things can get overwritten over time. Like since TCW it's Canon now that Sidious keeps 2 Sabers on him, not 1. And that he prefers using Dual Sabers to fight. So he almost certainly had that 2nd Saber on him when fighting Mace but didn't use it against Mace, not even when Mace disarmed him.

It's not just Any site. It's the Official site run by Lucasfilm. Whenever there's a new Official SW announcement we hear about it through the Official Site.

Also what Lucas says will always have a level of importance, but you do realise that Lucas isn't in charge of Star Wars Canon anymore right? He gave up that right when he sold it. Lucas also said Vader was a cripple when it came to a Saber fight, and ROTJ Luke was only half trained. Doesn't mean Disney will follow that.

In any case like I said I believe Windu did win the Saber fight. All I'm saying is you can't go around saying "there's absolutely nothing to suggest Sidious threw the fight, and Only a Sids Apologist would even suggest that", when the damn Official Site states it's a possibility.

Actually Yoda failed to Stop/Capture Dooku whilst Sidious succeeded in killing Mace and turning Anakin. So why's it ok for you to think Yoda was holding back on Dooku but not ok for others to think Sidious was holding back on Windu? You can say to them "Look if we're going to debate this we need to give proof and leave speculation out of it". Which would be fair. But you can't just reject the speculation of others concerning a combatant holding back for 1 fight, then come out with your own speculation concerning a combatant holding back for another fight.

My interpretation of some of the things being argued here from watching the movie?

Yoda did not hold back against Dooku. They fought, Dooku knew he was losing ground, so he retreated.

Windu beat Sidious. Sidious did not hold back. He is not a moron, he's not about to have a jedi disarm him when he knows full well he could get killed if he did. He had plans on top of plans, however. Had he beat Windu, he would have turned Anakin some other way (probably from a position of strength). He lost, so he turned Anakin that way. He may well have had a 2nd saber, but I am wagering to bet that the surest way to get killed would be to draw on a peer swordsman who has an overwhelming positional advantage. He knew that, so he played possum instead.

This is my take. All opinions tho, so take of it what you will.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
See here you go again acting like I'm the one whose wrong. I've demonstrated solid evidence for my side and you still rant your stubbornness. Let beat you once again.

Why would he need to know in advance? The moment he shot Windu and it was being reflected back at him, one can figure out that Windu could hold it for a substantial period of time. Also Sidious was bending his blade back at Windu yet stopped? So your entire point here is now crushed as this shows that he had a solid idea. Also he knew about Vaapad as I've already posted in my last post. Also what do you mean Anakin could do nothing about it. He CUT OFF WINDUS ARM.

You do understand his confirmed finning of weakness was after we see his nasty face correct? The first part was to be in a vulnerable position, then reveal his true face which to Anakin woudl gain his sympathy. You are once again wrong. Sidious did have a second blade as confirmed by Dave Filoni. So he had a second blade, but why not pull it out the moment he gets disarmed and we've seen how fast he can pull a saber out. He's a master of the force, so if he's just there without using his force powers what does that show. Also it could be that Windu said you have lost and that didn't go to well with Sidious so he shot lightning and guess what he almost killed Windu but didn't, so again what are you arguing. So really this entire paragraph is you questioning whether he was faking weakness which Lucas has already said so there is no real way around it.

You idiot. If you know about it and it's explained you know what to be ready for. If you I know of someone's fighting style and they actually explain it to you about what it can do you do know what it does and can prepare how to fight it. This is you worst attempt yet. The only difference woudl be that Sidiosu hasn't mastered it to the same depth as Windu, that's it. Mace fought sora a less proficient Vaapad master and guess what the baattle ended in a stalemate. Same with Deepa except wait didn't mace suffer more in that battle? Sidious knew about the style from the best master of it. He knows what it is cable of, doesn't master of he practiced it or not, all that means is that he just can pt use it. He can certainly gage how powerful Windu is. Also why should Sidious care, he's better than Windu so why should he care how powerful he is. All he should worry about is Yoda. If he here's that Widnu is on level of Dooku he knows damn well that Mace can't compete and then at the beginning of the duel Sidious already pushes Mace to his last leg at the first second, even letting him live.

So once again you fail to make your point and even come close to winning. You have lost.

The buffoonery here has reached epic levels. I mean epic. Let's begin...

Post ANY proof that he stopped bending his blade at Mace's face. You claimed he stopped doing so, there was never any reference made to such. Sure, he eventually stopped, but never was it mentioned he was actively trying to bend Mace's blade back at him, let alone that he stopped doing so.

MORON, Anakin could do NOTHING at the point where Mace had his sword at Sids throat. He had JUST walked in and was far away from them at that point. If mace wanted to kill Sids, he could've done so, or attempted to do so and Anakin could do nothing about it. Your claim was, that Sids knew Mace wouldn't kill him because Anakin had just walked in. This point has been utterly crushed. Which is the point, if his whole goal was to turn Anakin and he threw the fight... How would he knew Mace would hold his blade and not try and kill him? He wouldn't, he would have no clue one way or another. That seems like a big chance to take for an expert planner....

Your next moronic point is that Sids knew about Mace's style and thus he was prepared for exactly how good he was and what he'd be able to handle from Sids to give the appearance of a fair up and up fight? Wrong again clownshoes, he would have ZERO way of knowing exactly how good Mace was. None what so ever. He never fought a vaapad master before, let alone THE master of the form. Shit, Sids never fought anybody even remotely has good as Mace or Yoda before meeting them. To say he would know exactly what Mace is capable of, in order to EXACTLY know that he can block this strike or that strike... or would be able to dodge his force push.. or be able to sustain holding off his lighting is simply illogical. Think about it shoes....

I could be a black belt in Karate and Kung-Fu... I could hear about this thing called BJJ... I could read up on it and learn about it. Does that mean when I fight a BJJ black belt I'm prepared for what he's going to try, in exactly what way and which point in time? Of course not, I'd have a general idea of what he might try, but a real fight pays out much differently than a fantasy fight in your head. Sids would have ZERO clue what mace could and couldn't do to portray a up and up fight. I call bullshit.

Further, and you have no answer for this, WHY FIRE LIGHTING AT MACE AT ALL IF YOU"RE TRYING TO ACT WEAK IN FRONT OF ANKAIN? You have ZERO answer for that. He was already on the floor with a blade at his throat WITH NO WEAPON that Anakin could see. Why fire lighting at Mace at all? Why go no you will DIE.. DIE... and fire a powerful lighting blast at mace that you have no clue if he'll be able to block it... let alone block for awhile. Yoda got his saber disarmed by a lighting blast. Yet, Sids knew Mace could hold onto his, not just hold onto it, but hold onto it for awhile. More unsubstantiated nonsense from you. The buffoon you are, you come back with.. well he had to show Anakin his true face? WTF??? Are you retarded? Showing Anakin his true face changes nothing. Cite any reference to that having any significance at all. I call bullshit on your claim. Either prove it or concede you have no proof for this. That made no difference what so ever... Anakin already knew he was a sith.. he as well aware of it. He didnt' need to see his face to show that. That's ludicrous to even suggest so.

You again failed to answer this part... if you're TRYING TO THROW A FIGHT AND APPEAR WEAK... WHY DO YOU INCREASE YOUR FORCE SPEED TO SPEEDS never seen before? Why on God's green earth would you do that? You wouldn't you buffoon. Do you know what throwing a fight means? Have you seen boxing fights thrown.. or bball games thrown.. or any sport for that matter. Do you seem them playing the best they ever have when they are trying to lose? No, in fact you act the opposite, you UNDERPERFORM so you can lose. Yet here, Sids increases his speed dramatically to fight Mace. Why do so if your whole intent is to look weak? That's simply a retarded line of logic.

lastly, and I forgot about this for a second. In the novel it EXPILCTLY states Sids TRIED TO FORCE PUSH MACE OUT THE WINDOW. Mace countered said push with a push of his own to stop himself from flying out the window. How are you trying to push someone out the window if your intent is to lose the fight and show weakness? That doesn't jive with trying to throw the fight. It's beyond idiotic to even suggest such a thing. YOU DON'T TRY AND KILL SOEMONE YOU'RE TRYING TO LOSE TO YOU MORON. Jesus, are you like 8 and can't comprehend basic concepts ?

This debate has been over since it started. The only canon proof lies on my side. and abundantly on my side. It's not even close. Everybody can see it, everybody knows it. As I said, I have an open battlezone challenge to anybody who thinks Sids threw that entire fight.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
My interpretation of some of the things being argued here from watching the movie?

Yoda did not hold back against Dooku. They fought, Dooku knew he was losing ground, so he retreated.

Windu beat Sidious. Sidious did not hold back. He is not a moron, he's not about to have a jedi disarm him when he knows full well he could get killed if he did. He had plans on top of plans, however. Had he beat Windu, he would have turned Anakin some other way (probably from a position of strength). He lost, so he turned Anakin that way. He may well have had a 2nd saber, but I am wagering to bet that the surest way to get killed would be to draw on a peer swordsman who has an overwhelming positional advantage. He knew that, so he played possum instead.

This is my take. All opinions tho, so take of it what you will.

A logical and sensible post. We haven't always agreed, but I generally respect your logical line of progression. Accept when it comes to LOTR lol

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I'm not sure how being how being written years later is supposed to prove it false. In terms of contradictions newest is more important than oldest. Because things can get overwritten over time. Like since TCW it's Canon now that Sidious keeps 2 Sabers on him, not 1. And that he prefers using Dual Sabers to fight. So he almost certainly had that 2nd Saber on him when fighting Mace but didn't use it against Mace, not even when Mace disarmed him.

It's not just Any site. It's the Official site run by Lucasfilm. Whenever there's a new Official SW announcement we hear about it through the Official Site.

Also what Lucas says will always have a level of importance, but you do realise that Lucas isn't in charge of Star Wars Canon anymore right? He gave up that right when he sold it. Lucas also said Vader was a cripple when it came to a Saber fight, and ROTJ Luke was only half trained. Doesn't mean Disney will follow that.

In any case like I said I believe Windu did win the Saber fight. All I'm saying is you can't go around saying "there's absolutely nothing to suggest Sidious threw the fight, and Only a Sids Apologist would even suggest that", when the damn Official Site states it's a possibility.

Actually Yoda failed to Stop/Capture Dooku whilst Sidious succeeded in killing Mace and turning Anakin. So why's it ok for you to think Yoda was holding back on Dooku but not ok for others to think Sidious was holding back on Windu? You can say to them "Look if we're going to debate this we need to give proof and leave speculation out of it". Which would be fair. But you can't just reject the speculation of others concerning a combatant holding back for 1 fight, then come out with your own speculation concerning a combatant holding back for another fight.

being written later is critically important. The further we get away from when the movie was made, the further we get away from Lucas' own words and intention. That was added only recently, and we all know how I feel about recently added material from "sources" that had ABSOLUTLEY nothing to do with the making of the movie in question. I strongly disagree with that line of thought. So when it was put up IS vitally important. However, let's say it was before Disney even bought Lucas, or even 3 years ago. That still, and you would agree, PAILS in comparison to Lucas' own words on the matter. Those two are even in the same stratosphere. You know that, and I know that. So what that site says, in the end, has little bearing on canonicity when compared to Lucas' own words.

I'll have to check the novel again, but I'm sure there is a reference either there or for their vjun fight when it does say yoda was holding back. Further, even if I'm wrong and that Is never mentioned... Him trying to capture him, and not kill him, inherently implies a level of holding back. You full well know other options open up when you go for the kill as opposed to just trying to subdue somebody. Those are worlds apart really. So even then, I would be correct that Yoda was holding back to some degree, in that he wasn't going for the kill.