Windu & Yoda vs Tyranus & Sidious

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Nope, Sids wasn't communicating with him Telepathically at all, that was only in the novel. You know as well as I do, that if we use the novel, your argument gets further crushed.

I suggest you watch the actual movie again, instead of just the fight scene. Sidious is telling Anakin (without opening his mouth or being in the same room) that if the Jedi kill him, Anakin will lose all hope of saving his Wife.

You see this is the problem here. You claim you're using "Movies Only" but really you're using "the fight only" without looking at the context in the overall film.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The "other" stuff you say is going on, requires conjecture and SPECULATION on what it all means. No such thing is required for Mace in DIRECT combat disarming Sids. Think of it in simplistic terms and then you'll see which has more proof..... A 8 Year old would watch the movie and would clearly without any ambiguity go Mace beat Sids. It's THAT easy to see. Would he think Sids threw the fight? NOT IN THE LEAST. It's literally not probable at all he'd come to that conclusion. The MOST a 8 year old might say is... Oh Anakin helped Sids to save Padame. Doubtful, but maybe even go Palps manipulated him to do that. What he wouldn't do, and there can be no question of what is likely here, wouldn't go... Yeah Palps threw that entire fight to turn Anakin.

I'm not arguing about how the Saber fight went. I think in the Saber fight Mace and Sids were pretty equal and Mace just happened to come out on top that time (with both of them likely below Yoda in Sabers).

But as far as the result of the whole fight including the Lightning exchange, it's possibly the most ambiguous fight in the whole of Star Wars. Which is the reason you even have the Official Site agreeing to it's ambiguity. And I'm pretty sure the people writing the Official Site are older than 8. So stop acting like YOUR interpretation is EVERYONE'S interpretation of that fight. Because it's clearly not.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Stop acting like you're arguing with Quan here, you know damn well which facts are more obvious and actually facts, and which require speculation. For God's sake the producer, director and the FINAL authority said Mace overcame him. PERIOD. Stop acting like there is equal proof for both sides. You know damn well that isn't the case. That doesn't mean you're saying it's not possible. You can believe whatever you want as far as possibilities or speculation, but there's simply more proof on one side than the other

Urm pardon me, but the Director only confirmed Mace "Overpowered" Palpatine by kicking him on the floor. I don't even dispute that. Heck Dooku overpowered Anakin when he slam kicked Anakin onto the floor in the same movie. Hence Overpowering someone doesn't make you more Powerful, or even necessarily mean You've "Won" the fight.

And the Same Director went onto say Palpatine was "Feigning weakness" in the Lightning exchange. The AOTC Movie featurette confirms Mace is SECOND to Yoda in combat, the same Yoda who couldn't defeat Palpatine. Hence even if Mace did legitimately win against Palpatine, it must have been a context specific case.

So don't go quoting Movie Commentary to me as proof, because not only will you lose that every single time, but you're breaking the rules for this forum as confirmed by the Mod.

Look at the context of THE WHOLE SCENE and THE WHOLE MOVIE and Anakin's presence just becomes too large a factor to ignore in that fight to draw any definite conclusion one way or the other. If you exclude the Movie commentary and ALL CANON outside of the movies, then yes I admit it favors Windu more. But make no mistake there's plenty of speculation to be had on both sides given the context and given we never got to see Windu delivering the final blow.

When mace overpowered Sheev he was in a position of submission unable to fight his way back unlike your Dooku example. Quit giving some bs answer and ignoring the position Palpatine was in after he was disarmed.

Someone's crying because they've quickly become known as the biggest troll on the Star Wars forum 😂

The Star Wars Hater and biggest Fake TFA "fan" couldn't hide his true colours 😂

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I suggest you watch the actual movie again, instead of just the fight scene. Sidious is telling Anakin (without opening his mouth or being in the same room) that if the Jedi kill him, Anakin will lose all hope of saving his Wife.

You see this is the problem here. You claim you're using "Movies Only" but really you're using "the fight only" without looking at the context in the overall film.

I'm not arguing about how the Saber fight went. I think in the Saber fight Mace and Sids were pretty equal and Mace just happened to come out on top that time (with both of them likely below Yoda in Sabers).

But as far as the result of the whole fight including the Lightning exchange, it's possibly the most ambiguous fight in the whole of Star Wars. Which is the reason you even have the Official Site agreeing to it's ambiguity. And I'm pretty sure the people writing the Official Site are older than 8. So stop acting like YOUR interpretation is EVERYONE'S interpretation of that fight. Because it's clearly not.

Urm pardon me, but the Director only confirmed Mace "Overpowered" Palpatine by kicking him on the floor. I don't even dispute that. Heck Dooku overpowered Anakin when he slam kicked Anakin onto the floor in the same movie. Hence Overpowering someone doesn't make you more Powerful, or even necessarily mean You've "Won" the fight.

And the Same Director went onto say Palpatine was "Feigning weakness" in the Lightning exchange. The AOTC Movie featurette confirms Mace is SECOND to Yoda in combat, the same Yoda who couldn't defeat Palpatine. Hence even if Mace did legitimately win against Palpatine, it must have been a context specific case.

So don't go quoting Movie Commentary to me as proof, because not only will you lose that every single time, but you're breaking the rules for this forum as confirmed by the Mod.

Look at the context of THE WHOLE SCENE and THE WHOLE MOVIE and Anakin's presence just becomes too large a factor to ignore in that fight to draw any definite conclusion one way or the other. If you exclude the Movie commentary and ALL CANON outside of the movies, then yes I admit it favors Windu more. But make no mistake there's plenty of speculation to be had on both sides given the context and given we never got to see Windu delivering the final blow.

False there is more speculation on one side than the other. There simply can be no disputing this. You know it, I know it. Also incorrect, if we use Lucas and all the things he's either directly said, or approved being said, it would literally crush any argument that Sids threw the fight. Literally.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Someone's crying because they've quickly become known as the biggest troll on the Star Wars forum 😂

The Star Wars Hater and biggest Fake TFA "fan" couldn't hide his true colours 😂

I have a sig and avatar you never had, Thor. I also stimulate more Star Wars activity on the net than you ever have. I'm better than you.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
False there is more speculation on one side than the other. There simply can be no disputing this. You know it, I know it.

Did you actually read my argument?

Because I'm pretty sure I said if we go by "Movies Only," without commentary, without novelizations, then that favors Mace more. But there's still speculation on both sides given there was a wild factor in the whole situation- Palpatine manipulating Anakin.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Also incorrect, if we use Lucas and all the things he's either directly said, or approved being said, it would literally crush any argument that Sids threw the fight. Literally.

First of all I've not even said "he threw the fight." So again I'd appreciate you actually read my arguments before responding.

What I've claimed is he held back during the Lightning exchange due to his manipulation of Anakin. So the result had he not held back is unknown.

Also it's strange you say that about Lucas considering he was the one who stated Palpatine was faking "being weak."

Mace is the weak link. The sith for the slight majority.

Originally posted by Bentley
Mace is the weak link. The sith for the slight majority.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Mace defeated Palpatine and has not one blemish in his history. Dooku is the clear weakness here but I do believe you're intentionally trolling.

Nah, I just happen to know that context is critical to Star Wars battles.

Not everything has to be read as a definitive showing of power-levels.

Originally posted by Bentley
Nah, I just happen to know that context is critical to Star Wars battles.

Not everything has to be read as a definitive showing of power-levels.

Originally posted by quanchi112
And what context am I ignoring ? Spell it out, Frenchman.

Your argument is about trying to make Windu an established powerhouse above Sidious. By itself, that detracts from judging battles according to battle context.

Or maybe you're willing to admit Sidious can be superior to Windu and be defeated by him on sheer luck?

Originally posted by Bentley
Your argument is about trying to make Windu an established powerhouse above Sidious. By itself, that detracts from judging battles according to battle context.

Or maybe you're willing to admit Sidious can be superior to Windu and be defeated by him on sheer luck?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Did you actually read my argument?

Because I'm pretty sure I said if we go by "Movies Only," without commentary, without novelizations, then that favors Mace more. But there's still speculation on both sides given there was a wild factor in the whole situation- Palpatine manipulating Anakin.

First of all I've not even said "he threw the fight." So again I'd appreciate you actually read my arguments before responding.

What I've claimed is he held back during the Lightning exchange due to his manipulation of Anakin. So the result had he not held back is unknown.

Also it's strange you say that about Lucas considering he was the one who stated Palpatine was faking "being weak."

Originally posted by quanchi112
I didn't say he was above I said he won. He did. He's a peer. You can speculate all you want but the fact is Windu defeated him something Yoda was unable to do. No one would say Dooku could ever best Sidious so that paints him into a corner of being the weak link here.

Your position sounds a bit more reasonable. But the fact that you bring Yoda into the argument detracts terribly from your clarification. Did that battle happen in the same kind of physical context? You're pretty much providing an example of how you fail to consider context in your comparisions.

Dooku could hold his own against Sidious long enough for him to feign weakness in front of Anakin. He can replicate the feat alright given the context and his proven ability to match Yoda in bursts.

In movies Dooku has also proven to have more versatility in his powers.

Originally posted by Bentley
Your position sounds a bit more reasonable. But the fact that you bring Yoda into the argument detracts terribly from your clarification. Did that battle happen in the same kind of physical context? You're pretty much providing an example of how you fail to consider context in your comparisions.

Dooku could hold his own against Sidious long enough for him to feign weakness in front of Anakin. He can replicate the feat alright given the context and his proven ability to match Yoda in bursts.

In movies Dooku has also proven to have more versatility in his powers.

We see in the clone wars series Palpatine easily force chokes Dooku. You speculate but hey let's not ignore the fact Kenobi was sent after Anakin the guy who killed Dooku and wasn't powerful enough to even challenge Palpatine.

He has proven to be less effective as well.

Originally posted by Bentley
Mace is the weak link. The sith for the slight majority.

Thanks for the laugh Big B

Originally posted by Bentley
Did that battle happen in the same kind of physical context? You're pretty much providing an example of how you fail to consider context in your comparisions.

👆

This is the biggest factor all the Windu fans here keep ignoring.

They actually believe the Environment makes no difference whatsoever, and all that matters is the result.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
👆

This is the biggest factor all the Windu fans here keep ignoring.

They actually believe the Environment makes no difference whatsoever, and all that matters is the result.

Quit ignoring the context.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Thanks for the laugh Big B

You still haven't proven how Windu beats Dooku since the fight with Sidious was based on circumstance and the environment. Mace's form boosted him to unknown levels and even that only allowed him to be a stalemate to Sidious. He used the environment which is smart. However this is a place where that advantage isn't present and Vaapad won't be nearly as high if any. That's how Windu was able to contend. Dooku on the other hand did it all by himself after defeating two Jedi Knights.

Vaapad has been explained in how it was used in the battle with Mace and Sidious, and with that I'm not sure how well it would work agaisnt Dooku seeing the major difference between the two. It's a reason why Mace and Dooku are so incredibly close.

On a side note you should really work on your debating skills. This" my word is fact" style isn't helping you. Your starting to remind me of Quan, and we all know the train wreck of a debater he is.

So Windu beating the guy who owned Dooku with a casual force power isn't proof. Lol. Get back to me when they retcon Dooku's embarrassing death at the hands of Anakin.