Originally posted by Nibedicus
Wait, didn't the 2 of you contend against the use of novelization/Lucas comments as evidence in debates?Now it's all of a sudden valid use as evidence?
Good thing all he needed was Saber "skills" to defend against it, eh?
I Only argued against it where it can't possibly align with the movie.
Can Mace defend against TK with his Saber skills as well? Wow that Purple Saber can do all sorts.
Even the Saber win was a One Off IMO.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
OMG! Such an accurate depiction of what happened in the movie! Look how close the saber BENT towards Mace's face in the movie:http://i.imgur.com/f9QtC3Z.png
I mean with another maybe 10 inches it would have been close enough to cut him up real bad.
Your sarcasm aside there's nothing in the film that contradicts the idea that Mace was struggling to hold on to his Saber, and that Sidious's Lightning was Beyond Mace's abilities.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I Only argued against it where it can't possibly align with the movie.Can Mace defend against TK with his Saber skills as well? Wow that Purple Saber can do all sorts.
Even the Saber win was a One Off IMO.
You mean you only argued against it when it fits your interpretation of how things should go? Aka. argue for it when it's convenient for you? Double standards. Double standards everywhere!
We'll never know since Sids didn't use it. Did he? Read what I typed. Notice the term "needed". The use of the word is very important as it specifies what argument I am pertaining to. Hint: It is not used to address a future/hypothetical scenario. You'll notice that my argument is entirely based on the question: "Did Mace beat Sids?" and "Did Sids throw the fight?". Think about it a second and you'll get what I mean.
Can Sids beat Windu? Reasonable speculation, peers can beat peers after all. However, that is not what happened in the movie and there is no proof that he "threw" the fight.
Bottom line, Windu beat Sidious in a fight. Their one and only movie fight. Ppl just need to accept that and move on.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Your sarcasm aside there's nothing in the film that contradicts the idea that Mace was struggling to hold on to his Saber, and that Sidious's Lightning was Beyond Mace's abilities.
Sure, he was struggling, it's there on screen for all to see.
Did he struggle enough for ppl to throw around crazy notions like "Sids could have beat Mace with lightning at any time by bending his light saber"?
No. Not really.
Edit. As for Sid's lightning being "beyond Mace's abilities", sure didn't look like it when he deflected Sid's lightning back to his face. Unless you think Sids allowed himself to be cooked medium well on purpose. Essentially: prove it.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Sure, he was struggling, it's there on screen for all to see.Did he struggle enough for ppl to throw around crazy notions like "Sids could have beat Mace with lightning at any time by bending his light saber"?
No. Not really.
Edit. As for Sid's lightning being "beyond Mace's abilities", sure didn't look like it when he deflected Sid's lightning back to his face. Unless you think Sids allowed himself to be cooked medium well on purpose. Essentially: prove it.
He did the same in the novel. But it was beyond Mace to keep it up.
Proof's in the novel.
And let's not forget this was Sidious shooting Lightning from a position of being on his Ass and right under Mace's blade.
So yes Sidious definitely could have won by going all out with his Force Powers. And there's even the possibility Sidious would win a Saber rematch.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
1) He did the same in the novel. But it was beyond Mace to keep it up.Proof's in the novel.
2) And let's not forget this was Sidious shooting Lightning from a position of being on his Ass and right under Mace's blade.
3) So yes Sidious definitely could have won by going all out with his Force Powers.
4) And there's even the possibility Sidious would win a Saber rematch.
1) Except the novel is not proof in a movie VS forum.
2) Which ended up cooking him and doing no damage to Windu, yes.
3) Except he didn't.
4) Except he didn't.
It's funny that you deal in conjectures and I deal in things that actually happened on screen.
👆
If you think about it, if Mace and Sidious did have a rematch, Sidious woudl win in an all out match and a pure saber match. Windu's Vaapad wouldn't elevate him to the same level of power I believe. My reasoning is this.
The factors making up Vaapad were Sidious' dark side power and Mace's inner darkness. I don't believe his inner darkness woudl be nearly as strong, due to it not being an "in the moment" situation. This would be a second duel, and since they were proven to be dead equals, anything less than what Windu got last time woudl mean a loss of him. Even 1% less, mean Sidious has the edge and woudl ultimately win, at least that's how I see it. Then if Sidious abuses the force than yes Windu is done.
Originally posted by relentless1
firstly, overcame is a lot different then overpowered, second Lucas changed his mind a lot about a lot of things regarding Star Wars so he's an iffy source when it comes to this stuff. He also says at one point that you'd have to be Yoda or Mace to even compete with the Emperor, almost making it sounds as if Sidious was above the two of them. So right there he contradicts his own comments.
This getting ridiculous now, and it's truly painful. I mean painful to watch. Let me get this straight relentless, and tell me this makes logical sense.
Lucas decides:
1. He's going to write a script for ROTS, and not one did he EVER talk about or even hint at a fight being thrown
2. Has a book written on movie, to add even more thoughts and details to the story to expand on things maybe not seen. He careful edits said book, and has it goes through edits and edits. Never in the book does he include anything about Sids throwing the fight, instead he includes:
A. how sids attacked Mace with all his dark side might, even makes note of a force push intending to kill mace (clearly implying the opposite of him holding back or throwing the fight and dismissing the notion that he wasn't trying to kill mace)
B. explains how Mace beat Sids, through shatterpoint and slowing him down by breaking the window and letting the rain in. So instead of explaining how the fight was thrown, he instead has a book written explaining how Mace was able to win.
3. Then in his commentary he explicitly states that Mace overcame him. Not only does he say that, but he shows EXACTLY that in the movie. We visibly see Mace disarm him. Very clear and unambiguously at that. Instead of discussing how the fight was thrown and a rouse, he instead reaffirms that Mace beat Sids.
Now honestly, you honestly believe all that happened, and yet Lucas' true thought were that Sids threw the fight? I mean really? Do you honestly believe that?
Originally posted by Darth Thor
He did the same in the novel. But it was beyond Mace to keep it up.Proof's in the novel.
And let's not forget this was Sidious shooting Lightning from a position of being on his Ass and right under Mace's blade.
So yes Sidious definitely could have won by going all out with his Force Powers. And there's even the possibility Sidious would win a Saber rematch.
It wasn't beyond anything, he kept it up and resisted it. It's all there for us to see. Somebody commenting that it was beyond Vaapad, is just narration to invoke drama. Think about it, and answer honestly, how many times have we heard or read the lines I can't hold out any longer... I'm giving it all I got.. THEN they give more and that isn't all the got. A non omnipotent narrator saying such language doesn't mean he couldn't have held out long enough for sids to official **** himself up. If he wanted to show us that, he very well could have, guess what he did.. he showed us Mace maintaining
Also, if you're using the book, all I need to use is one line, Sids trying to force push Mace out the window and windu having to counter to barely survive. You don't try and kill somebody you're intentionally trying to carry and have live till you can turn him. That would be the definition of counter productive to that. So if you use the book it gets even worse for the throwing the fight argument. Much worse.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
If you think about it, if Mace and Sidious did have a rematch, Sidious woudl win in an all out match and a pure saber match. Windu's Vaapad wouldn't elevate him to the same level of power I believe. My reasoning is this.The factors making up Vaapad were Sidious' dark side power and Mace's inner darkness. I don't believe his inner darkness woudl be nearly as strong, due to it not being an "in the moment" situation. This would be a second duel, and since they were proven to be dead equals, anything less than what Windu got last time woudl mean a loss of him. Even 1% less, mean Sidious has the edge and woudl ultimately win, at least that's how I see it. Then if Sidious abuses the force than yes Windu is done.
All speculation, buddy. Heck, the movie was not specific on the reason on how Mace beat Sids. Excluding novelization (which has been found very inconsistent with regards with the movie), one can just argue that he beat Sids via pure saberplay via a kick to the face. Then deflected his lightning back at him via pure saber/force ability.
Without any kind of novelization help (w/c has again been inconsistent), this would actually be a very reasonable analysis of the fight.
Originally posted by NibedicusOwned. Well done. I also hate debating with this could have happened or that could happened guys all the while ignoring WHAT DID HAPPEN.
1) Except the novel is not proof in a movie VS forum.2) Which ended up cooking him and doing no damage to Windu, yes.
3) Except he didn't.
4) Except he didn't.
It's funny that you deal in conjectures and I deal in things that actually happened on screen.
👆
Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) Except the novel is not proof in a movie VS forum.
So movie canon doesn't count? LOL
But Funny you didn't say that to KT, when he was claiming Mace moves faster than Anakin can even perceive, based on a part of the novel that didn't even happen in the film.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
2) Which ended up cooking him and doing no damage to Windu, yes.
Because Sidious stopped firing. And he only stopped because he was pretending to be weak (as confirmed by George Lucas in the Movie audio commentary).
Originally posted by Nibedicus
3) Except he didn't.
Perhaps because Mace began the fight with help from 3 other Masters forcing Sidious into Saber combat.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
4) Except he didn't.
Perhaps because Mace began the fight with help from 3 other Masters.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
It's funny that you deal in conjectures and I deal in things that actually happened on screen.👆
Actually no, I deal with Star Wars Movie Canon, which I clearly have far more knowledge of than you if you're claiming Mace Windu is as Powerful as Sidious, and 1 circumstantial fight is the all and end all.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
It wasn't beyond anything, he kept it up and resisted it. It's all there for us to see. Somebody commenting that it was beyond Vaapad, is just narration to invoke drama.
Or maybe it actually was beyond Mace, since you know Sidious actually is more powerful than Mace. And Sidious's Lightning even managed to disarm Yoda off his Saber.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Think about it, and answer honestly, how many times have we heard or read the lines I can't hold out any longer... I'm giving it all I got..
Difference here is we don't know if he could have kept resisting it, because Sidious stopped firing, pretending to be weak, as per Lucas. So all we know is before Sidious stopped (pretending to be weak), Sidious was slowly(but surely) overpowering Mace.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
If you think about it, if Mace and Sidious did have a rematch.
Good point, they had the Saber match up first, where Mace began the fight with 3 other Masters aiding him.
Then once Mace eventually won that, and Anakin walked in, they had a second contest of Sidious's Lightning vs Mace's Saber, which we know Sidious was winning until he pretended to be too weak to continue.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
All speculation, buddy. Heck, the movie was not specific on the reason on how Mace beat Sids. Excluding novelization (which has been found very inconsistent with regards with the movie), one can just argue that he beat Sids via pure saberplay via a kick to the face. Then deflected his lightning back at him via pure saber/force ability.Without any kind of novelization help (w/c has again been inconsistent), this would actually be a very reasonable analysis of the fight.
I'm pretty sure vaapaad woudl be the reason. That is what we have all agreed upon, and know that Mace posses. The book really, I agree can be inconsistent, but it is canon none the less where it aligns with the movie. Vaapad is so thing we all know mace has, so I'm not sure why this a problem. What is fact are the two factors that made up Vaapad, Mace's inner darkness, and Palpatine's darkness. If he uses Vaapad at 100%, he will get Palpatine's energy the same, but his inner darkness wouldn't be as high, due to him already having a first appearance. He has already had a first fight with him, so his inner darkness, wouldn't be as strong due to it being a second fight. Since they were dead equals, anything less on any of their parts than what they brought to the table last time woudl mean that one woudl loose if they brought less. Sidious as proven can bring that power by himself. Windu used Vaapad. Windu possibly won't get the same inner darkness for the reasons stated above.
Also Sidious=Yoda>Windu, all of this is canocially proven. So really the notion that without Vaapad Windu is on level it's Sidious is far fetched. Also we woudl agree that Dooku and Windu are very closely matched, if not complete equals right? Windu</=Dooku>Yoda=Sidious.
Aside from that how have you been man? It's been a while.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
1) So movie canon doesn't count? LOL2) But Funny you didn't say that to KT, when he was claiming Mace moves faster than Anakin can even perceive, based on a part of the novel that didn't even happen in the film.
3) Because Sidious stopped firing. And he only stopped because he was pretending to be weak (as confirmed by George Lucas in the Movie audio commentary).
4) Perhaps because Mace began the fight with help from 3 other Masters forcing Sidious into Saber combat.
Perhaps because Mace began the fight with help from 3 other Masters.
Actually no, I deal with Star Wars Movie Canon, which I clearly have far more knowledge of than you if you're claiming Mace Windu is as Powerful as Sidious, and 1 circumstantial fight is the all and end all.
1) Novelization is not canon to the movies, especially when it had instances of it DIRECTLY contradicted by the movie (bent saber anyone?). Only the desperate would cling to inadmissible evidence and then go pretend that it's some sort of irrefutable logic. Here, let me copy/paste the MvF golden rule for you:
"What is seen on screen is canon in these forums. If your character you wish to use has feats/actions/handicaps that contradict what that character did on screen (movie canon), then it is a violation and is illegal. MOVIE FEATS ONLY!"
If you want, I can ask for a mod ruling to determine if novelizations (especially novels that have scenes that DIRECTLY contradict with what happened on screen) are admissible here?
2) Not my job to do that as I am arguing a separate point. Why should I do your job for you? Don't be lazy.
3) Conjecture. We do not know the reasoning of why he stopped firing as it was never mentioned in the movies. Nor do we know what would have happend had he continued firing. You are grasping at staws.
And FYI, what Lucas may have referred to him "pretending to be weak" is the actual statement he made that he was "too weak" (which was pretense as he still wasn't too weak at the time).
3:16
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBLcxXR1PMw
What we DO know is that he got cooked and horribly scarred the more he fired and Windu suffered no damage whatsoever.
4) "Perhaps" this, "perhaps" that. Hehe. Conjecture, conjecture, conjecture. That is all you have. Let me then present what ACTUALLY happened:
The "help" you seem to be talking about lasted less than 10 seconds (0:40-0:49) with the first 2 jedis killed within the first 2 seconds. From there, he had EVERY opportunity to use his force powers or to win the saber match.
But he didn't.
So stop using your maybes' and perhaps' while presenting ZERO proof to support your argument. It is desperate and we both know you're better than that. Conjecture is all you have. Conjecture that (I'm sure you know) withers before actual direct evidence.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
1) I'm pretty sure vaapaad woudl be the reason. That is what we have all agreed upon, and know that Mace posses.2) The book really, I agree can be inconsistent, but it is canon none the less where it aligns with the movie. Vaapad is so thing we all know mace has, so I'm not sure why this a problem.
3) What is fact are the two factors that made up Vaapad, Mace's inner darkness, and Palpatine's darkness. If he uses Vaapad at 100%, he will get Palpatine's energy the same, but his inner darkness wouldn't be as high, due to him already having a first appearance. He has already had a first fight with him, so his inner darkness, wouldn't be as strong due to it being a second fight. Since they were dead equals, anything less on any of their parts than what they brought to the table last time woudl mean that one woudl loose if they brought less. Sidious as proven can bring that power by himself. Windu used Vaapad. Windu possibly won't get the same inner darkness for the reasons stated above.
4) Also Sidious=Yoda>Windu, all of this is canocially proven. So really the notion that without Vaapad Windu is on level it's Sidious is far fetched. Also we woudl agree that Dooku and Windu are very closely matched, if not complete equals right? Windu</=Dooku>Yoda=Sidious.
5) Aside from that how have you been man? It's been a while.
1) What is agreed upon in the forum is irrelevant, what matters is direct evidence and highest canon material (movie).
2) This is where you are wrong. A book is NOT automatically canon to a movie. And novelizations have to be 100% consistent with the source material (movie) for it to be considered canon. Any inconsistency/contradiction whatsoever and it falls apart as canon material. This is also applicable vice versa. Example: LoTR books cannot be used as evidence for the movie as there are some inconsistencies with book portrayal vs movie portrayal.
3) Conjecture and irrelevant.
4) There are many ways a person can be greater and obviously Yoda has a higher rank than Windu due to his age and tenure as well as his power and skill. And Sidious is a master manipulator and a master force user as well. Overall, in combat, however, they are all peers.
5) Doing good, buddy. Hehe. Glad to still have you here. Was busy for a better part of 5 months. Time is starting to free up tho.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) Novelization is not canon to the movies, especially when it had instances of it DIRECTLY contradicted by the movie (bent saber anyone?). Only the desperate would cling to inadmissible evidence and then go pretend that it's some sort of irrefutable logic. Here, let me copy/paste the MvF golden rule for you:"What is seen on screen is canon in these forums. If your character you wish to use has feats/actions/handicaps that contradict what that character did on screen (movie canon), then it is a violation and is illegal. MOVIE FEATS ONLY!"
If you want, I can ask for a mod ruling to determine if novelizations (especially novels that have scenes that DIRECTLY contradict with what happened on screen) are admissible here?
Firstly it doesn't contradict the scene in question. Because Mace's Saber was pushed back, and Mace clearly was struggling to hold onto his Saber.
Whilst you're acting as if the whole scene was completely different. It wasn't.
Secondly you're bringing up Movie versus rules, and ignoring SW movies has a very established set of Canon rules in and of itself, which includes the movie novelizations where they align with the movies.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
2) Not my job to do that as I am arguing a separate point. Why should I do your job for you? Don't be lazy.
I've already done that job. Just pointing out your double standards. You see KT use a scene in the novel that doesn't even occur in the film as Proof, and Ignore it. Then you see me use descriptions of a scene that does happen in the film, and jump all over me for it.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
3) Conjecture. We do not know the reasoning of why he stopped firing as it was never mentioned in the movies. Nor do we know what would have happend had he continued firing. You are grasping at staws.
No it's not conjecture. It's in the damn movie commentary Lol.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
And FYI, what Lucas may have referred to him "pretending to be weak" is the actual statement he made that he was "too weak" (which was pretense as he still wasn't too weak at the time).3:16
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBLcxXR1PMw
What we DO know is that he got cooked and horribly scarred the more he fired and Windu suffered no damage whatsoever.
Yes that's all that happened, that Sidious was getting "cooked". Mace was just fine right? Which is why he was the one screaming LOL
Originally posted by Nibedicus
4) "Perhaps" this, "perhaps" that. Hehe. Conjecture, conjecture, conjecture. That is all you have. Let me then present what ACTUALLY happened:
Oh please do.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
The "help" you seem to be talking about lasted less than 10 seconds (0:40-0:49) with the first 2 jedis killed within the first 2 seconds.
And 10 seconds makes no difference in a fight? LOL
Originally posted by Nibedicus
From there, he had EVERY opportunity to use his force powers or to win the saber match.
No, because he was forced into close up Saber combat right from the get go. There was no other way to take out 3 Jedi that quickly.
On the other hand, how did Sidious's fight start with Yoda? Because IIRC it began with Sidious Shooting at Yoda from a distance sending him flying. And then Yoda giving Sidious a dose of Force Powers back. And THEN they engaged in Sabers.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
So stop using your maybes' and perhaps' while presenting ZERO proof to support your argument. It is desperate and we both know you're better than that. Conjecture is all you have. Conjecture that (I'm sure you know) withers before actual direct evidence.
Hmm let's see what direct evidence you have exactly? That Mace can beat Sidious in a Saber match up when he begins the fight with 3 other Jedi Masters.
That Mace can then "Overpower" Sidious's Lightning, when Sidious is Pretending to be Weak.
But for you're argument You're Assuming that neither of those 2 factors made any difference at all.
So it's in fact YOU whose being desperate, You whose full of Conjecture, if you're using all of that as some kind of evidence that Mace =/> Sidious in a fair 1 v 1 match up.
Whilst I have the Attack of the Clones movie featurette as proof that Mace is SECOND in combat abilities to Yoda - You know the guy who fought dead evenly with Sidious. I also have the Revenge of the Sith audio commentary Proving Sidious was Pretending to be WEAK against Mace Windu. I have the Revenge of the Sith Novel, Line Edited by Lucas, stating Sidious was Too Powerful for Mace.
Heck I even have TCW animation (Canon to the movies) as proof Sidious keeps 2 Sabers on him, which is MORE PROOF he wasn't as helpless as he made out on the floor, Playing Weak.
So you need to stop shouting "Conjecture Conjecture" and actually bring something solid to this argument yourself. And actually make it clear exactly what it is you're arguing. Are you honestly arguing Mace > Sidious? I don't even know. At least Quanchi is clear on that. Whilst you just seem to just be arguing for the sake of it.
