Count Dooku vs Tol Braga, Leeha Narezz and Warren Sedoru

Started by Selenial5 pages

Originally posted by Nephthys
Warren wasn't the fighter he used to be. But he used to be the greatest Jedi warrior of his time, so that still leaves room for him to be extremely potent. And Leeha was able to fight through the lions share of the defenses on Vitiate's fortress. Meaning masses of elite Sith and Imperial Guardsmen, both groups I'd rank above nightsisters.

Anyway, quibble all you want, it's stated 3 seperate times that these were the cream of the crop.

Wrong. He "wasn't a warrior". There is nothing about him simply deteriorating, he says himself that he is not a fighter any more.

And no, actually, it's not definitively said they're the best merely among the best, there's a difference.

Feared more than the Jedi? Who gives a shit, they're Nightsisters. When challenging someone to a lightsaber duel, I'll pick the Jedi over a Nightsister 80 times out of 10. Since you know, they actually use them.

Shame these sisters trained in Jedi Combat and held off Count Dooku then, your argument's pretty invalid there Neph.

Lol, you're so assblasted.

Idk how you define "The Jedi are better because Jedi are better than Nightsisters" as "assblasted" but ok 😆

Actually it definitely said that they're best. It doesn't say their some of the best, the exact words are:

"I'm putting together a team of our best and brightest. Jedi that don't know the meaning of failure." - Tol Braga

"MASTER TOL BRAGA has gathered a team of the galaxy's most powerful Jedi. Their goal: find the Emperor's hidden fortress, infiltrate its defenses, capture the Emperor and bring him back to the Jedi Order." - TOR loading screen

"With Grand Master Satele Shan's support, Master Braga assembles a strike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the order. Their goal is to pinpoint the Emperor's hidden fortress, capture the Sith leader alive, and turn him to the light side."

"I can't even fight droids, but I'm totes one of the best Jedi in the Order."

"I got beat up by some random politician, but I'm totes the Chosen One."

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Ranks do not exclusively determine skill and power. Yes, a Jedi Master is supposed to be more learned and experienced then a Jedi of lesser rank on average, but this is not necessary in practice. Jedi get promoted to the rank of Jedi Master for different reasons and not strictly on the basis of their prowess in combat.

For example, Revan became the most powerful and experienced Jedi of the Order during the course of Mandalorian Wars and he still held the rank of Jedi Knight during this time. He was granted the rank of Jedi Master after the Jedi Civil War.

When Mandalorian Wars are officially discussed in the lore [even in in-universe fashion], Revan, Malak and Meetra Surik are hailed as the greatest heroes of the Jedi Order. Members of the Jedi High Council of this era do not match the fame and accomplishments of Revan, Malak and Surik.

Prior to confrontation with Vitiate, Warren Sedoru and Leeha Narezz were not Jedi Masters but they were battle-hardened Jedi Knights nonetheless. Sedoru, in particular, could read the minds of others [Note that Sedoru is the first Jedi to activate his Lightsaber and get ready for confrontation with Vitiate; Sedoru most likely sensed Vitiate's hostile intent earlier then others].

Though Sedoru and Narezz may lack in showings in comparison to many characters, they are officially stated to be among the finest of the Jedi Order. As neutral observors, we should take official disclosures seriously.

There are always exceptions to granting ranks, but in this case, there doesn't seem to be any reason to not have granted Warren and Leeha that rank if they really were that strong. They weren't schismatics who defied the Council like Revan and Co. They were two ordinary Jedi who went on missions and evidently completed them to the satisfaction of the Council. There is no discernable reason for the Council to withhold that rank if they truly deserve it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

It was Tol Braga's idea to attempt to turn Vitiate to the Light Side but the Jedi Strike Team was officially tasked to arrest Vitiate using any means necessary.

MASTER TOL BRAGA has gathered a team of the galaxy's most powerful Jedi. Their goal: find the Emperor's hidden fortress, infiltrate its defenses, capture the Emperor and bring him back to the Jedi Order. (From Star Wars: The Old Republic)

Do you really think that the Jedi would take the risk of infiltrating an Imperial fortress and fight through its defenses, only to proceed to negotiate with the Emperor?

This was a daring and extremely risky mission and Jedi lacking in experience, power and/or skill would not be ideal candidates for it. By all accounts, Vitiate posed greatest threat to the existence of the Jedi Order in galactic history.

Sedoru and Narezz weren't just supposed to negotiate with Vitiate; they were supposed to assist Braga and Hero of Tython in the confrontation, if it occurs. Evidently, Sedoru and Narezz activated their Lightsabers to confront Vitiate after sensing his hostility; watch the footage on YouTube.

By the way, Narezz and Hero of Tython independently fought through the defenses of the Imperial fortress to reach the position of Vitiate. Not sure about Braga and Sedoru though.

Warren and Narezz were expected to defend themselves to some extent. There's no doubt they were capable enough in combat to get to the throne room. But once the team was assembled, they initially tried to talk to Vitiate rather than fight him. They straight up invited him to Tython. They asked him to join them of his own free will.

If it came down to a fight though, Warren and Leeha were clearly much weaker than Braga and HoT. Any direct, combative help they could provide would be minimal. Unless they so severely underestimated Vitiate's power that they thought that minimal help was all the extra help they needed, then the inference to be drawn is that they were there because their strengths were in areas other than direct combat. Warren's ability to sense thoughts and intentions would come in handy as an early warning system for example. Braga and HoT engage Vitiate physically while they hang back and offer Force-based support. Instead, though, Vitiate forced the issue by launching a massive lightning attack that they were forced to directly contend with, and they crumbled quickly.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Your assumptions are far-fetched.

But still backed up the actual evidence and reasonable inferences drawn from the evidence.

The Hero of Tython wasn't a Master either and she could kicks all their asses.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"I got beat up by some random politician, but I'm totes the Chosen One."

Yeah, Anakin is pretty featless, just like Warren...oh wait.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually it definitely said that they're best. It doesn't say their some of the best, the exact words are:

"I'm putting together a team of our best and brightest. Jedi that don't know the meaning of failure." - Tol Braga

"MASTER TOL BRAGA has gathered a team of the galaxy's most powerful Jedi. Their goal: find the Emperor's hidden fortress, infiltrate its defenses, capture the Emperor and bring him back to the Jedi Order." - TOR loading screen

"With Grand Master Satele Shan's support, Master Braga assembles a strike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the order. Their goal is to pinpoint the Emperor's hidden fortress, capture the Sith leader alive, and turn him to the light side."

"Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?"

Saesee Tiin > Yoda > Anakin > Obi-Wan. That's some pretty impressive logic.

You should probably revisit a few basic "How to's" on the English Language.

Originally posted by DarthBeanzz
There are always exceptions to granting ranks, but in this case, there doesn't seem to be any reason to not have granted Warren and Leeha that rank if they really were that strong. They weren't schismatics who defied the Council like Revan and Co. They were two ordinary Jedi who went on missions and evidently completed them to the satisfaction of the Council. There is no discernable reason for the Council to withhold that rank if they truly deserve it.

My friend, Hero of Tython also held the rank of Jedi Knight prior to/during the time of his confrontation with Vitiate in spite of his earlier accomplishments.

I get the impression that the Jedi Order does not rush into promoting Jedi to the rank of Jedi Master in strenuous times; the Jedi Order of TOR era was preoccupied with war and issues of the Republic, and its ceremonial events would take a back seat under the shadow of more pressing matters.

As for Warren Sedoru and Leeha Narezz, I cannot say much about why they haven't been promoted to the rank of Jedi Master prior to confrontation with Vitiate. Perhaps they were not willing to train padawans and/or take additional responsibilities affiliated with the rank? Perhaps they have controversial history? In contrast, Hero of Tython was tutoring Kira Carsen and Tol Braga was tutoring Sedoru (among other undisclosed padawans).

Warren Sedoru was already one of the most acclaimed Jedi Knights of the order when the Sith Empire attacked the Republic at Korriban. He was one of the first Jedi to lead a counterattack against Imperial forces and scored several early victories against them. (Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic)

Narezz, in particular, had the reputation of never failing in her missions. Therefore, it is safe to assume that Sedoru and Narezz weren't lacking in quality or combat prowess.

Originally posted by DarthBeanzz
Warren and Narezz were expected to defend themselves to some extent. There's no doubt they were capable enough in combat to get to the throne room. But once the team was assembled, they initially tried to talk to Vitiate rather than fight him. They straight up invited him to Tython. They asked him to join them of his own free will.

If I remember the chain of events correctly; When Sedoru, Narezz and Braga reached Emperor's throne, Hero of Tython reacted with surprise and excitement. Sedoru and Braga then communicated with Hero of Tython (one of them stated that the Force is a powerful ally or something similar). Then Vitiate joined the conversation and Braga attempted to reason with him, to no avail. Sedoru and Narezz did not try to reason with Vitiate at any point though, they were ready to attack him instead.

Originally posted by DarthBeanzz
If it came down to a fight though, Warren and Leeha were clearly much weaker than Braga and HoT. Any direct, combative help they could provide would be minimal. Unless they so severely underestimated Vitiate's power that they thought that minimal help was all the extra help they needed, then the inference to be drawn is that they were there because their strengths were in areas other than direct combat. Warren's ability to sense thoughts and intentions would come in handy as an early warning system for example. Braga and HoT engage Vitiate physically while they hang back and offer Force-based support. Instead, though, Vitiate forced the issue by launching a massive lightning attack that they were forced to directly contend with, and they crumbled quickly.

Braga and Hero of Tython were evidently stronger then Sedoru and Narezz but I wouldn't go as far as to assert that Sedoru and Narezz were weak. Yes, Sedoru and Narezz were no match for Vitiate but this doesn't imply that they were actually weak or average (both are officially above-average).

It is important to understand that majority in the mythos cannot contend with Vitiate; most would drop like flies in a confrontation with him. It is not a stretch to assume that Vitiate can one-shot even the likes of Count Dooku.

Braga and Hero of Tython managed to resist Vitiate's assault to some extent because both were unusually strong. Right before this confrontation, Emperor's Wrath admitted that in a span of centuries, he found Hero of Tython most challenging and superior to any Jedi he have encountered before.

Originally posted by DarthBeanzz
But still backed up the actual evidence and reasonable inferences drawn from the evidence.

It is all speculation, my friend.

We don't know if Dooku can outduel Jedi of such repute simultaneously. An argument can be made that Dooku might be superior duelist then each Jedi in question but a Strike Team of competent warriors is a different matter.

Braga can occupy Dooku on his own while the other 2 Jedi use their powers to attack Dooku from behind. I don't see Dooku lasting under such pressure.

It shall be kept in mind that Sedoru, Narezz and Braga weren't (individually) fodder for Hero of Tython; they were boss-level opponents instead. And I don't think that Dooku is better then Hero of Tython.

Dooku slaughters these featless losers

Dooku in a decent fight.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My friend, Hero of Tython also held the rank of Jedi Knight prior to/during the time of his confrontation with Vitiate in spite of his earlier accomplishments.

I get the impression that the Jedi Order does not rush into promoting Jedi to the rank of Jedi Master in strenuous times; the Jedi Order of TOR era was preoccupied with war and issues of the Republic, and its ceremonial events would take a back seat under the shadow of more pressing matters.

As for Warren Sedoru and Leeha Narezz, I cannot say much about why they haven't been promoted to the rank of Jedi Master prior to confrontation with Vitiate. Perhaps they were not willing to train padawans and/or take additional responsibilities affiliated with the rank? Perhaps they have controversial history? In contrast, Hero of Tython was tutoring Kira Carsen and Tol Braga was tutoring Sedoru (among other undisclosed padawans).

Warren Sedoru was already one of the most acclaimed Jedi Knights of the order when the Sith Empire attacked the Republic at Korriban. He was one of the first Jedi to lead a counterattack against Imperial forces and scored several early victories against them. (Taken from [B]Star Wars: The Old Republic)

Narezz, in particular, had the reputation of never failing in her missions. Therefore, it is safe to assume that Sedoru and Narezz weren't lacking in quality or combat prowess.[/B]

HoT had been a Jedi for only about a year by that point. Warren and Leeha had been around much longer. The Council had plenty of time to promote them. If they were offered the promotion and turned it down, that's one thing. But there's nothing that indicates that.

In any case, by this point both Warren and Leeha have shown a distinct lack of combat prowess. Warren admits to HoT that he can't keep up with simple battle droids anymore. On Hoth, Leeha gets beaten by turrets. Turrets. Not even droids. She has to depend on HoT to get out of that situation. She may have "never known failure" in the sense that she hasn't gotten killed, but she only succeeded in that particular mission by the skin of her teeth, and only because she relied on the merits of a more powerful Jedi.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If I remember the chain of events correctly; When Sedoru, Narezz and Braga reached Emperor's throne, Hero of Tython reacted with surprise and excitement. Sedoru and Braga then communicated with Hero of Tython (one of them stated that the Force is a powerful ally or something similar). Then Vitiate joined the conversation and Braga attempted to reason with him, to no avail. Sedoru and Narezz did not try to reason with Vitiate at any point though, they were ready to attack him instead.

They also really didn't have much time to say anything. Vitiate's response to Braga was a quick evil villain rant and then BOOM! Lightning storm! It was an idiotic plan to begin with, but Vitiate didn't even give them time to implement it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Braga and Hero of Tython were evidently stronger then Sedoru and Narezz but I wouldn't go as far as to assert that Sedoru and Narezz were weak. Yes, Sedoru and Narezz were no match for Vitiate but this doesn't imply that they were actually weak or average (both are officially above-average).

It doesn't matter how many times Braga or any other source say they are among the best in the Order: nothing we've seen them do actually justifies those accolades. Unless you want us to assume they have some vast well of Force-potential and fencing techniques, and that we should ascribe to them every possible Force power that they could theoretically have but just never bother to use, then we'll work with what we actually see. And from what we actually see, they're average, at best.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is important to understand that majority in the mythos cannot contend with Vitiate; most would drop like flies in a confrontation with him. It is not a stretch to assume that Vitiate can one-shot even the likes of Count Dooku.

Braga and Hero of Tython managed to resist Vitiate's assault to some extent because both were unusually strong. Right before this confrontation, Emperor's Wrath admitted that in a span of centuries, he found Hero of Tython most challenging and superior to any Jedi he have encountered before.

That all speaks well for Braga and HoT, but it doesn't change the fact that Warren and Leeha still have not shown anything beyond what an average Jedi Knight could accomplish.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is all speculation, my friend.

We don't know if Dooku can outduel Jedi of such repute simultaneously. An argument can be made that Dooku might be superior duelist then each Jedi in question but a Strike Team of competent warriors is a different matter.

Braga can occupy Dooku on his own while the other 2 Jedi use their powers to attack Dooku from behind. I don't see Dooku lasting under such pressure.

Only insofar as any hypothesis is technically speculation.

We know Dooku is capable of dealing with as many as four Jedi comfortably. His entire fighting style in that situation revolves around maneuvering so that only one opponent can come at him at a time. Of these three, the actual evidence strongly suggests that only Braga would be able to keep up with him for any appreciable time.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It shall be kept in mind that Sedoru, Narezz and Braga weren't (individually) fodder for Hero of Tython; they were boss-level opponents instead. And I don't think that Dooku is better then Hero of Tython.

It shall also be kept in mind that other boss-level opponents for HoT include: battle droids, pirates, wampas, and non-Force-sensitive Imperials. Would all of those actually be legit threats to a Jedi of HoT's caliber? If so, then what does it say about the quality of the Jedi when any two-bit Imp could be considered a "boss-level opponent?" Or is it just a game mechanic to keep the game interesting and not actually indicative of the skills those opponents actually possess?

@ Darth Beanzz, I see you learn the hard way about LeGenD.

Good luck and a lot of patience, my friend. 👆

@DarthBeanzz

Your debating skills are impressive. Credit where due.

I admit that you have caught me off-guard here. I'll see if I can find some counterarguments.

Originally posted by Stigma
@ Darth Beanzz, I see you learn the hard way about LeGenD.

Good luck and a lot of patience, my friend. 👆


I think that you should learn a thing or two from him about debating.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I think that you should learn a thing or two from him about debating.
Thus far we all learned that you are wrong. Nothing new.

Now, go on and entertain us with LeGenD!logic 👆

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
@DarthBeanzz

Your debating skills are impressive. Credit where due.

To be fair, anyone's debating skills compared to LeGenD's are impressive.

Still, DarthBeanzz seems like a cool guy that knows his staff.

Originally posted by DarthBeanzz
On Hoth, Leeha gets beaten by turrets. Turrets. Not even droids. She has to depend on HoT to get out of that situation.

Wasn't that a trick to trap the Imperial forces? Also they were heavy turrets, nothing to sneeze at.

Originally posted by Stigma
To be fair, anyone's debating skills compared to LeGenD's are impressive.

Really?

I have seen nothing from [you] so far that gives the impression that you are a gifted debater.

You are only good at trolling and your just doing that in this thread as expected.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, Count Dooku schools this Strike Team because he is the league of Vitiate.

I just ask, why do you debate if it's so obvious that you will choose TOR characters over anyone else at least the majority of the time? In every debate I've seen you in you've tend to go for those characters. Why?