There's a difference between being an apprentice Sith Lord to the Sith Lord, and being an academy apprentice who is yet to even take the title of Darth in the first place. Maul is of the same rank as Scourge - a fully fledged Sith Lord. And he was carrying out missions for Plagueis and Sidious when they arose - so Scourge isn't a special snowflake for being let out of his cage.
The point that isn't resonating with you is that despite being of equal rank, Maul just trained a ****-ton harder than Scourge. Ergo, it's another piece of supporting evidence for why he's better.
Originally posted by ILS
There's a difference between being an apprentice Sith Lord to the Sith Lord, and being an academy apprentice who is yet to even take the title of Darth in the first place. Maul is of the same rank as Scourge - a fully fledged Sith Lord. And he was carrying out missions for Plagueis and Sidious when they arose - so Scourge isn't a special snowflake for being let out of his cage.The point that isn't resonating with you is that despite being of equal rank, Maul just trained a ****-ton harder than Scourge. Ergo, it's another piece of supporting evidence for why he's better.
And it's clearly not resonating with you that Scourge had already passed that point. He wasn't a teenage Sith like Maul was, he was an actual adult. Scourge had already spent years of training of Korriban and had moved passed that to a full-time position. It's like comparing a university student to a professor. The student spends more time studying but the professor did the studying and moved on. You can't compare their training because you don't know how much training Scourge did when he was in Maul's position.
Either way you didn't respond to the point that Scourge trained a ****-ton longer than Maul did and fought a ****-ton more than Maul did. And he never got crippled like Maul did.
And it's clearly not resonating with you that Scourge had already passed that point. He wasn't a teenage Sith like Maul was, he was an actual adult. Scourge had already spent years of training of Korriban and had moved passed that to a full-time position.And why on earth would that matter?
Scourge trained on Korriban, becomes a Sith Lord. Maul trains under Sidious, becomes a Sith Lord.
I think we already established that training under Sidious to be the "ultimate weapon", or the "violent embodiment of their partnership", kind of shits on training at the academy.
I'm now comparing their dedication to dueling after that point - while they are Sith Lords; whereas you're trying to compare Maul's continued training of the lightsaber to what Scourge did at the academy.. which is because there's a severe lack of evidence for Scourge, as a Sith Lord, maintaining his lightsaber ability to the same degree as Maul. It's nice attempt at deflection, but it's not going to fly. Maul evidently just trains harder and better than Scourge.
You can't compare their training because you don't know how much training Scourge did when he was in Maul's position.And here we have the appeal to ignorance. As far as I'm concerned you have no grounds for suggesting Scourge's training was equivalent.
Either way you didn't respond to the point that Scourge trained a ****-ton longer than Maul did and fought a ****-ton more than Maul did.The quality of the training and experience matters a hell of a lot more than the length of it. It isn't time that improves a Force user as much as it is their experiences that mould them - hence why after becoming a Sith Lord, or after any particularly traumatic experience, Maul felt himself growing more powerful from it.
On your end, your argument amounts to "Scourge is really old and trains a few times a week!"
And he never got crippled like Maul did.By all accounts Maul only became more powerful after TCW, not crippled. He spent that decade stewing in utter hatred and as a result it made him stronger. It's experiences like that, again, which mould a character, not simply time itself.
@ILS
Sith training standards of the Empire are officially harsh, brutal and unrelenting. To give you some perspective, thousands entered the Sith Academy at a time but few were able to endure the trials successfully and graduate. Many would perish during the trials.
Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia contains information about this subject.
Originally posted by ILS
Now that Sinious has calmed down and Neph's outlandish claims have been settled, lets get back to the topic of discussion.Given that Maul has:
-More strength than Scourge, both physically and in the Force by a sizeable degree.
-More extensive combat training from a wider variety of, and simply better, sources, and a higher dedication to training (comparing Scourge's training regime of practising every few days to Maul's hundreds of thousands of sequences every single day). Also much, much harsher training.
Yes, Darth Maul received excellent training by all accounts. But we need to keep in mind that ancient Sith Empires defined the standards of Sith training in the first place.
Originally posted by ILS
-Better, and more easily definable combat and Force feats.
Originally posted by ILS
-Superior accolades.
Leg, as the spokesperson for the SWTOR movement, could you kindly explain your policy on feats?
Because it looks like you use feats as long as it benefits a SWTOR character but when somebody like Maul has better feats, you cry foul due to an alleged lack of exposure for the other guy?
Just trying to make notes so I can more coherently follow present developments.
#conspiracy
Originally posted by ILSSo, while pooping, I delved into the SWTOR:E and there was conveniently an entire chapter dedicated to Sith Training. Unfortunately, after I read it, I found that it was overall, pretty generic stuff. The training is hard, it routes out the weak, only the best become Sith, etc etc. Sith go out into the wild and only the most cunning and strong return.
No doubt they were hard, but I'd need specifics before I consider them comparable to Maul's training. I might check out my copy of the book for more info, so thanks.
By all accounts, Maul's trials at the Orsis Academy, and especially Hypori, blow this kind of stuff out of the water.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDBut it's not, Leg. Maul's the kind of guy who gets cut in half and survives purely because of how strong and knowledgeable he is in the Dark Side, and only becomes more powerful because of it. The kind of guy whose sinister presence ripples galaxy-wide through the Force upon his return. The kind of guy who tears the head off of mini-dinosaurs without even calling on the Force. There's three feats for you that exceed Scourge's capabilities. Scourge has more than three feats to draw from, correct?
All of this is mere speculation.Yes, Darth Maul received excellent training by all accounts. But we need to keep in mind that ancient Sith Empires defined the standards of Sith training in the first place.
Because Darth Maul is one of the best explored characters of the mythos. By comparison, most TOR timeline characters are not as well-explored; not even close.That isn't exactly much of an argument, and also not necessarily true. Scourge has any number of codex entries, reference books, SWTOR fights or novel feats to draw on to demonstrate how great he is. Maul does have a lot more to draw on, but I don't need to draw on much to show why he's better.
It is virtually impossible and impractical to compare many characters to Darth Maul on pound-for-pound basis in different aspects, my friend.Except.. when you think their feats are better.
NoYes. I'll compile them in another post, time limit would probably run out before I get them together for an edit.
Originally posted by ILS
So, while pooping, I delved into the SWTOR:E and there was conveniently an entire chapter dedicated to Sith Training. Unfortunately, after I read it, I found that it was overall, pretty generic stuff. The training is hard, it routes out the weak, only the best become Sith, etc etc. Sith go out into the wild and only the most cunning and strong return.By all accounts, Maul's trials at the Orsis Academy, and especially Hypori, blow this kind of stuff out of the water.
I doubt that authors have time and patience to provide detailed accounts of experiences of each acolyte in the Empire.
In-fact, SWTOR is primarily game-focused content. Books and Comics are just value-additions.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Leg, as the spokesperson for the SWTOR movement, could you kindly explain your policy on feats?Because it looks like you use feats as long as it benefits a SWTOR character but when somebody like Maul has better feats, you cry foul due to an alleged lack of exposure for the other guy?
Just trying to make notes so I can more coherently follow present developments.
#conspiracy
I cite feats whenever applicable which is norm for a debater.
There isn't much information about capabilities of Lord Scourge to draw from for a lengthy pound-for-pound comparison purpose in a debate. We have some feats to cite from his early days (during the times of his service to Darth Nyriss) but we don't have much to tell about his capabilities during his prime days as Emperor's Wrath. At best, information about him - during the times of his service to the Emperor - implies that Scourge emerged as one of the Sith finest in galactic history. Insofar, I know that Scourge acquired new powers including shatterpoint abilities during his prime days.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Ok. Thing is, Maul's pretty kickass in all of the criteria you mentioned. So how is it ok to use Scourge's "superior" feats but disregard Maul's on the basis of lack of exposure? Looks a lot like a double standard to me. 👆
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Ok, so what does that mean?
Therefore, this is useless argument. Their is no way to determine whom was better trained. Simple.