Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No clue
First smart thing you've said all debate.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66 Then it should be super easy for you to direct me to the source then for that, wouldn't it?
If you bothered to read instead of Carthaging your way through this debate I wouldn't need to.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66 don't care.
That's hardly my problem now is it?
Originally posted by DarthAnt66 You made the claims there were millions (kek), so give me a source and a quote and I'll concede (probably not but it's a start for Kun > Malak at least), and we'll go from there.
If you actually think Malak is Kun tier you need to be c*ck slapped by Advent.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66 I doubt all Republic worlds guarentee a member of the Senate, especially for those not that heavily inhabited (most worlds have hardly millions inhabiting it, so you expect me to believe that they could all fit in a building?). Also, obviously not everyone is going to be there given they were literally just attacked by Droma's forces. Most of them probably fled or tried to seek refugee. I also bet the traffic to the planet was completely halted. Not to mention the fact that the Republic during this era isn't as big as it was during the Empire. 😬
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
The Empire was indeed larger, but according to the official Star Wars website, the senate at the time of the movies was a sector system. Infact the official number for this time is 1,024 according to the Episode I: Visual Dictionary.
But before this not only was the Old Senate Chamber much larger as I have shown you in previous images. But the entire sectorial system turned millions of sectors, each with a representative into the above 1,024 due to the Ruusan Reformations(The Essential Atlas, Darth Bane: Rule of Two). It was a move to end rabid corruption.
The Senate Assembly was clearly packed, especially during Ulic Qel-Droma's trial.
There are your sources.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Wrong, wrong, wrong.The Empire was indeed larger, but according to the official Star Wars website, the senate at the time of the movies was a sector system. Infact the official number for this time is 1,024 according to the Episode I: Visual Dictionary.
But before this not only was the Old Senate Chamber much larger as I have shown you in previous images. But the entire sectorial system turned millions of sectors, each with a representative into the above 1,024 due to the Ruusan Reformations(The Essential Atlas, Darth Bane: Rule of Two). It was a move to end rabid corruption.
The Senate Assembly was clearly packed, especially during Ulic Qel-Droma's trial.
There are your sources.
Since I enjoy discussing Republic politics and stuff, I thought I'd pitch in here for Ant.
Firstly, I find it funny you use the Essential Atlas as a source when it provides a pretty key piece of information that shatters your argument. We'll go over a very brief history of the political landscape so we can create a more accurate picture.
Originally, any planet with a large enough population had a place in the Senate. But even before the Republic expanded beyond the Core, it was obvious this model of government wouldn't work - the Senate's sheer size made debate interminable and consensus painfully slow to arrive. So the Planetary Senate gave way to a new idea. The young Republic would be divided into sectors containing no more than fifty inhabited systems - a low ceiling set because the Senate feared giant sectors would form the seeds of breakaway empires.--The Essential Atlas
Sectors grew to include thousands of star systems, but even with the "rule of 50" widely ignored, within a few millennia the Republic included millions of sectors and was once again ungovernable.--The Essential Atlas
We'll pause here for a moment. As we can clearly see, the Republic Senate can't function with millions of members. Already we have an idea that Exar Kun didn't mind control millions. For the next piece of evidence:
Following the first of the Alsakan Conflicts after 17,000 BBY, the Republic adopted the idea of a seated Senate, whose members had full rights of address, and an unseated Senate, whose members had to petition for such rights.--The Essential Atlas
I'll make note here that there apparently isn't a change from this format until the Ruusan Reformations, or perhaps sooner given the Republic as of TOR hints to a similar political structure to the movie Senate.
Anyway. What this makes clear is that many Senators (likely the majority) don't even have seats in the Senate by the time of Ulic's trial, and instead suggests that only some Senators are given seats. The final piece of evidence, really, is the size of TOTJ's version of the Convocation Chamber.
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/comics/totj/senate2.jpg
While, yes, the chamber is packed, that doesn't mean that 'millions' were seated there. In order for millions to be crammed into a single building, that building would need to be 40-100s of miles in length and a similar size in width. How did I come to this conclusion? The state of Rhode Island (which is estimated 48 miles in length) has a population of slightly over 1 million.
What makes the idea of millions cramming into that chamber even less plausible is that the entire chamber isn't even filled. The floor (the giant empty space between bleachers) isn't even filled, which further reinforces the idea that millions have not occupied the chamber.
The point here is that the Convocation chamber isn't large enough to hold millions. And if it really were 40-100 miles in length/width, then it would take hours (maybe even days depending on Kun's strut speed) for Kun to leisurely stroll from the entrance to the Chancellor's podium. Heck, it would take that long just for Senators to get to their seats.
It's simply illogical for there to be millions of Senators at Kun's trial. The political landscape of the Republic doesn't allow it. The size of the convocation chamber doesn't allow it. And it's simply illogical given that many planets in the galaxy barely even have millions populating them, some only have thousands.
The lack of logic in your argument really lacks of logic. I don't even get why you're attempting to argue that Kun dominated millions. Just take your thousands and move on. Sheesh.
Originally posted by Selenial
Aurbere's maths is pretty off though. You'd need about a a square mile to fit 1 million senators comfortably. Given the middle being completely empty, one would need the hall to be roughly the size of Central Park to accommodate everyone.
I suck at math so whatever 😛
Point is that the building isn't big enough. 'Millions' (not 1 million, as you said) is a lot of people.
Originally posted by Selenial
Aurbere's maths is pretty off though. You'd need about a a square mile to fit 1 million senators comfortably. Given the middle being completely empty, one would need the hall to be roughly the size of Central Park to accommodate everyone.
Okay, so under the assumption that one would need a Central Park sized building to fit 1 million people, that would still require the chamber to be several miles in length (2.5 miles according to this: http://www.centralpark.com/guide/faq.html#faq_3)
And, again, the building would need to be even larger to accommodate the 'millions' being suggested here. It's obviously not, given reasons I pointed out earlier. It's simply illogical to suggest that millions would fit in the obviously too small of building the Senate Hall is. And it's illogical to argue the building's dimensions are as large as they would need to be to support those numbers, given the events taking place. For instance, Kun needed to walk the entire length of the chamber in mere minutes to get to the Chancellor before security/armies/Jedi/etc arrived. One does not strut miles in minutes.
Heck the comic depicts Mandalore the Indomitable and the Massassi flanking Kun the whole time, so that rules out Force Speed there.
So yeah, millions aren't in that building as the dimensions don't really allow it.
Originally posted by Aurbere
Okay, so under the assumption that one would need a Central Park sized building to fit 1 million people, that would still require the chamber to be several miles in length (2.5 miles according to this: http://www.centralpark.com/guide/faq.html#faq_3)And, again, the building would need to be even larger to accommodate the 'millions' being suggested here. It's obviously not, given reasons I pointed out earlier. It's simply illogical to suggest that millions would fit in the obviously too small of building the Senate Hall is. And it's illogical to argue the building's dimensions are as large as they would need to be to support those numbers, given the events taking place. For instance, Kun needed to walk the entire length of the chamber in mere minutes to get to the Chancellor before security/armies/Jedi/etc arrived. One does not strut miles in minutes.
Heck the comic depicts Mandalore the Indomitable and the Massassi flanking Kun the whole time, so that rules out Force Speed there.
So yeah, millions aren't in that building as the dimensions don't really allow it.
I wasn't contesting that at all, believe me. I'm with the rest of you on this, the idea there was millions is beyond retarded.
But the "1 million" was a small typo. You could fit over 20 million in a square mile, but that's hella cramped. You could fit around 5 million comfortably IMO. The Central Park thing stands 😛
Originally posted by Selenial
I wasn't contesting that at all, believe me. I'm with the rest of you on this, the idea there was millions is beyond retarded.But the "1 million" was a small typo. You could fit over 20 million in a square mile, but that's hella cramped. You could fit around 5 million comfortably IMO. The Central Park thing stands 😛
Oh no, I know you weren't contesting it. I just quoted your post because... Well now I can't remember why. 😛
Are those numbers accounting for the open, empty space in the middle?
Originally posted by Aurbere
Oh no, I know you weren't contesting it. I just quoted your post because... Well now I can't remember why. 😛Are those numbers accounting for the open, empty space in the middle?
They are, yeh. Central Park's 1.4 square miles.
Basically, it could fit 35 million people in, roughly. Cut out about half the space (given said hole) and its 17.5. Factor in the fact senators would want more space and you'd fit anywhere between 5 and 10 million in, tbh.
Originally posted by Selenial
They are, yeh. Central Park's 1.4 square miles.Basically, it could fit 35 million people in, roughly. Cut out about half the space (given said hole) and its 17.5. Factor in the fact senators would want more space and you'd fit anywhere between 5 and 10 million in, tbh.
I see. We can both agree the building isn't that large, right?
