Originally posted by ZenwolfHmm, fair point. IG simply needs more exposure like most things in SWTOR lol
Where tho? Never seen anything to note in regarding their tact capability. Just that they were in top form, feared by Sith Lords(which at times I have a hard time believing, except martial wise) and taken from troopers and slaves.
Originally posted by Sinious
Hmm, fair point. IG simply needs more exposure like most things in SWTOR lol
Plus the Sith Warriors(least in the Hope/Deceived trailer) seemed to follow the same, they had some god complex and charged straight into blaster fire too.
But yeah, though I doubt were gonna get anything more now considering the Guard has all been wiped out.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Where tho? Never seen anything to note in regarding their tact capability. Just that they were in top form, feared by Sith Lords(which at times I have a hard time believing, except martial wise) and taken from troopers and slaves.
'The Empire's ultimate non-Force sensitive warriors, the Imperial Guard is a selfless army devoted to the Emperor and the Emperor alone. Clad in blood-red armor and wielding deadly weaponry designed to exterminate Force users, the Imperial Guard sweep across the Galaxy at the Emperor's command, destroying his enemies both outside and inside the Empire. When confronted by the Imperial Guard, the mightiest of Sith have laid down their lightsabers and surrendered to the inevitable death offered by a guardsman's electrostaff. Even members of the Dark Council fear the Imperial Guard, though many would die before confessing such weakness."
'unmatched in martial skill.'
"According to Imperial databanks, Guardsman Lassicar was born to slave parents in the conquered system of Begeren. He gained the Empire's attention when he personally executed his parents and exposed their terrorist cell to Moff Harvus. Lassicar's subsequent rise through the ranks of the Imperial Guard is the fastest on record.
He has personally executed six Jedi and over two dozen Sith Lords who made the fatal mistake of crossing the Emperor. A team of SIS agents sent to assassinate him returned to Coruscant in a series of small containers. Lassicar's survival instincts and combat skills should not be underestimated."
Note that Lassicar isn't even a Captain.
Nyriss also thinks that theres no chance of her beating the Imperial Guard.
Ok Neph, that doesn't tell me anything regarding the tactical ability that is used, just that they are great martial combatants...which is obvious and I noted. If you're referring to the fear thing, I noted that as pure martial wise then yeah, there would be something to fear...but if including vast Force powers, I don't see that point.
I was more replying to your doubts about them being feared. Don't much care about tactical abilities because the scene you mentioned is obviously Drew being a raging incompetent.
The IG's can draw on Vitiates power to resist even Revan caliber Force powers also btw, if they're near him. But considering the statements, the Force isn't something that trumps them regardless.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I was more replying to your doubts about them being feared. Don;y much care about tactical abilities because the scene you mentioned is obviously Drew being a raging incompetent.
Never said I doubted as them being feared, as martial wise sure they are, but including Force Powers? I can't see that.
The one Guard resisted a TK push and even then as I recall he was pushed back, he just wasn't sent flying.
But how does that defend them from things like Force Lighting/Force Storm?
Also if they have to be near him, then I still don't see how it makes much sense for Force Powers not to work on them generally when not near him.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The Guards fight Sith Lords all the time. Obviously they can beat Force powers.
Or said Sith Lords just go straight for martial attacks, there's no real basis for them to withstand Force powers other than they having to be near their Master just to resist being Force Pushed...which wouldn't be the same as Force Lighting anyway.
In a neutral ground setting, yeah martial wise sure I can see a Guard taking wins...including Force powers though? I don't see that.
But anyway were trailing off topic here, so I don't wanna derail anymore.
Didn't you read the part where Sith lay down their sabers because their loss is inevitable? If all it took was the Force that wouldn't be the case. Non Force sensitives can defeat Force users through conventional battle tactics and abilities.
The Empire includes huge numbers of Sith who rely on the Force over their martial abilities. Even Nyriss couldn't beat the Guards and her Force powers were hefty indeed.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Didn't you read the part where Sith lay down their sabers because their loss is inevitable? If all it took was the Force that wouldn't be the case. Non Force sensitives can defeat Force users through conventional battle tactics and abilities.The Empire includes huge numbers of Sith who rely on the Force over their martial abilities. Even Nyriss couldn't beat the Guards and her Force powers were hefty indeed.
I did, but that quote seems to suggest then that the average Sith Lord doesn't have any huge Force Powers to display and is mostly a martial combatant.
The thing with Nyriss as you noted, it wouldn't be against 1 Guard as I recall there being a large number of Guardsmen which would be a swarming tact, which of course then she wouldn't be able to kill them all if they swarmed. N
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Exactly. I should just imagine up how powerful Scourge must be, because the "load of showings" that Scourge has, like losing 2-v-1 to Nyriss, almost 1-v-1 to an Act II Hero of Tython, and killing a few Imperial Guards, he also killed a thousand randoms over 300 hundred years. And sure, those randoms have no name and showings of their own, and they totally don't exist just to hype the all-powerful-Scourge, but they must clearly be of note, because hey, Vitiate had them assassinated in an unknown manner.
Welcome to Nai's logical errors 101. This time we deal with the "feature positive effect", that leads to this precise line of thinking. Our brains have serious problems with imagining and noticing "nonoccurances". For example: Assuming that you don't have any form of pain right now, you won't usually notice that fact and think about how glad you are, that you don't suffer from any form of pain in the moment. Because the pain is something that does not occur to you.
The same effect takes place here: You can observe Savage doing stuff and automatically your brain puts that actions over the actions of Scourge that you can't observe. In fact, you completely ignore the idea that something noteworthy happened that hasn't been narrated or depicted en detail, leading to your precise line of thought. There are no direct observeable feats for Scourge that are impressive, there are some for Savage, thus Savage > Scourge.
And you don't even spot the outright hilarity of that line of thought. Of couse the 1,000 Sith and 100 Jedi just exist in order to "hype" Scourge, because the makers of SW:ToR didn't have the option to let him kick serious ass with onscreen time. But if you outright ignore the implications made by that single statement, that obviously doesn't work in contrast to another character who has observeable feats.
But: Just think about the sheer number of individuals that Scourge faced in combat. Even if their level of skill and competence was following the rules of normal destribution - despite the fact that they were labelled "too powerful or too ambitious" according to Vitiate's judgement, which pretty much contradict the idea of "average joes" among them - you would end up with the three-sigma rule for their skill levels.
That would mean that about 68.2 % of Scourge opponents were "average", with 13.6 % being one tier better / worse; 2.1 % being two tiers better / worse and 0.1 % being 3 tiers better / worse. Now you could equate those "standard deviations" from the norm with ranks that Force users rise through:
Acolyte / Padawan > Sith Lord / Jedi Knight > Jedi Master / Darth > Council Members
But if we do actually consider the things stated about Scourge's targets and the outright fear that other people, even members of the Dark Council, had for him, one might consider Acolytes / Padawans not worthy of Scourge's attention. That would leave the other ranks, meaning that Scourge would have killed, about:
[list]
[*]682 Sith Lords, 68 Jedi Knights
[*]136 people with a "Darth" ranking, 14 Jedi Masters
[*]21 Council Members, 2 Jedi Council Members
[*]one exceptionally powerful Sith
[/list]
This is, of course, just statistic and speculation. It's just there to illustrate a very simple point: Scourge has personally killed more Force users than any other character in the entire mythos outside the realm of RPG mobs, with Vitiate (8,000+ Sith Lords) and possible Tulak Hord (1,000 Jedi, singlehandly slaughtered) being the only exceptions. He had 300 years to perfect his already considerable duelling abilities and realize his above average force potential. Not even mentioning the augments (alchemy, cybernetics) that were designed to make him stronger for combat specifically. So do you really want to ignore that and go by his appearance in the Revan novel, which is, pretty much, what you've done so far?
@SunRazer
Originally posted by SunRazer
[B]I thought Nai dismissed a number of Palpatine's "most powerful" quotes on the basis that they could refer to political power or some other form of power, not necessarily Force Power. Mind explaining why that suddenly doesn't apply to those nameless unknowns that Vitiate considered "too powerful" for his liking? And for all we know, Vitiate could just be paranoid (which he pretty much is, anyway), so "too powerful" could well be, well, not that powerful at all in the grand scheme of things.
First: Who said that couldn't apply to those Sith?
Second: This is still an ad hominem, as my view regarding other topic has nothing to do with this particular debate. Furthermore it doesn't even matter, if you'd be so kind to look at my user-title. I'm here to steer debates, not to get my personal points across.
Thirdly: Yes. It could refer to political power or some other form of power. But then, you may want to take a step back and take into consideration, that the guy "judging" them is the Emperor who's control over the Empire is pretty much unquestioned before he disappears (after the treaty of Coruscant) especially on the political field. The Second Wrath is capable of outright overwriting the commands of Dark Council Member Darth Baras by citing his own position, demonstrating quite clearly who reigns the political field.
Not that I, personally, see much reason for Vitiate executing anybody, since he outclasses every other person in the Empire easily.
And LOL @ the idea that those unknowns being "too ambitious" somehow makes them impressive kills. Some of Korriban's acolytes are probably more ambitious than some Sith Lords, but that hardly makes them powerful.
We are, if I may remind you, still talking about the Sith Empire. Being in a position were you can be too ambitious for the taste of Vitiate does pretty much automatically mean you have already reached a position in which he would even notice you. And to do that, you need to be rather powerful.
We also have no idea how Scourge killed them. It could've well been assassinations the vast majority of the time, or legitimate confrontations. Who knows? Point being that killing some faceless unknowns that exist solely to hype Scourge doesn't fodderize other characters of impressive stature, such as Savage Opress.
Even assuming that it were assassinations: In order to kill somebody, he would - without doubt - cut a bloody path through the respective persons security and then it's still virtually impossible to catch another Sith "off guard" (e.g. asleep in his bed or something like that). So in most scenarious, a direct confrontation would be inevitible. Which would give Scourge more than a thousand lightsaber duels. Even assuming he just killed 10 percent of his victims in direct combat, he would have seen by far more lightsaber action than Savage.
He's beaten powerful beings too, and we have objective, third-person sources claiming that they're some of the most powerful Jedi in all of history.
By claiming that Savage has "beaten" them, you making it sound as if somebody attempted to stop him by using everything possible. Which has never happened. The only exception is Dooku, who casually owns Savage with the force while dealing with Ventress at the same time and then Sidious, who kill him. I'm pretty certain that no Jedi did ever confront him with the will to strike him down, while none of those he managed to actually kill was any more noteable than one of Scourge's (supposely "random"😉 victims.
So yeah, Scourge doesn't have any kills which make Savage look like fodder in comparison, and doing the same thing over and over for three centuries isn't a feat in of itself. Sure, Scourge is more experienced, but apart from that and his natural ability to engorge himself on others' emotions, he doesn't have any advantages here.
Scourge has killed what the source material sells as the most powerful and ambitious Jedi and Sith alike for 300 years. The respective quote makes it clear, that we shouldn't even think about "average joes" getting killed by Scourge, but rather more powerful adversaries.
But even assuming that his victims represent an average of Jedi / Sith respectively, the sheer numbers suggest that there have been people on (Jedi / Dark) Council level among them (see above).
Furthermore, you should note that most of Scourge's Jedi kills probably happened after the start of the war up to the point where he joins the Hero of Tython - about 38 years. If a single being would bring down 1 percent of the Jedi population in the entire Galaxy (order was never bigger than 10,000 and Scourge killed at least 100), you should view that individual as pretty skilled, instead of thinking "KEK! He probably just killed fodder!". 😉
This is indeed a slaughter. 👆
Also:
Originally posted by NaiDon't even have to entertain the idea of those kills being assassinations as Neph said:Even assuming that it were assassinations: In order to kill somebody, he would - without doubt - cut a bloody path through the respective persons security and then it's still virtually impossible to catch another Sith "off guard" (e.g. asleep in his bed or something like that). So in most scenarious, a direct confrontation would be inevitible. Which would give Scourge more than a thousand lightsaber duels. Even assuming he just killed 10 percent of his victims in direct combat, he would have seen by far more lightsaber action than Savage.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Scourge doesn't operate in a clandestine manner. He's a heavy armor warrior, not a steal assassin. When he goes to kill Sajar he walks up to a Republic base with the intent of killing everyone present in the open.
Taken from Ant's RT:
"You fought Lord Scourge to a standstill until he broke off the battle for some reason. See what he has to say in the throne room of the Emperor's fortress." ―Scourge (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
Based on the fact that Scourge should be put up against guys who can humiliate Savage like Darth Maul, Count Dooku etc.