Originally posted by chilled monkey
Maul is questionable but with Anakin they were spot-on. Anakin is too reckless and hot-headed. Plo and Ti are better tacticians.
Questionable? Lol, Opress (Maul's clear inferior) already beat Plo Koon quite solidly in Sith Hunters.
Being "reckless" didn't stop Anakin beating Count Dooku an opponent far above the likes of Ti and Koon. And Anakin beating him wasn't a one-off either given their intense duels throughout TCW.
As for Anakin being "reckless" it's way overblown. The guy was a tactical genius in battle as proven again and again during TCW. Just because he was reckless once as a Padawan against Dooku (a mistake he never repeated) and once against Obi-Wan when he was conflicted and his mind just recently twisted to the DS, doesn't change his history of being possibly the Jedi's greatest battlefield general.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
They were. It's a matter of tactics. Taking an aggressive, attack-focused approach against a faster, more powerful foe who takes the same approach will get one killed as they're leaving openings the enemy can exploit. A defence-focused approach would be more effective. That's just common sense.
And what Windu doesn't fight aggressively? Lol
On the contrary I'd argue fighting defensively would be a horrible approach to take against Sidious given he'll just use the opportunity to TK smack you into oblivion if you do that.
No against Sidious you have to be all over him, providing you can compete, which those 3 simply couldn't as per Lucas.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Questionable? Lol, Opress (Maul's clear inferior) already beat Plo Koon quite solidly in Sith Hunters.
See, this is why Jensaarai1 and co. are smarter than you. They understand the importance of circumstances. ABC logic, saying "this guy beat this guy so he'll beat this other guy," is for idiots. You need to look at not just who won the fight but HOW they won the fight.
Plo only lost because he was distracted by one of his troops being in danger and that gave Oppress an opening. The same thing happened when Optimus Prime was distracted by Spike screaming for help and Megatron knocked him off the dam while he was distracted. A win due to circumstances. The vast majority of their fights end with Megatron being driven off.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Being "reckless" didn't stop Anakin beating Count Dooku an opponent far above the likes of Ti and Koon. And Anakin beating him wasn't a one-off either given their intense duels throughout TCW.
See the above point about ABC logic.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
As for Anakin being "reckless" it's way overblown. The guy was a tactical genius in battle as proven again and again during TCW. Just because he was reckless once as a Padawan against Dooku (a mistake he never repeated) and once against Obi-Wan when he was conflicted and his mind just recently twisted to the DS, doesn't change his history of being possibly the Jedi's greatest battlefield general.
TCW showed that his usual tactic was "charge in without any kind of cover" and/or "march troops in plain sight out in the open."
Oh yes, truly a tactical genus.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
And what Windu doesn't fight aggressively? Lol
So do have memory problems or did you just miss the part where I specifically noted that against a FASTER, MORE POWERFUL foe who takes the same approach will get one killed?
Windu could pull it off because his use of Vaapad allowed him to match Palpatine's speed.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
On the contrary I'd argue fighting defensively would be a horrible approach to take against Sidious given he'll just use the opportunity to TK smack you into oblivion if you do that.
Again, we are talking specifically about lightsabre duelling here. The fact that he would need to resort to "TK smacking you into oblivion" proves that he can't win purely through duelling skill. The point is that Palpatine isn't the greatest duellist in the galaxy. Good yes, but not the best ever. He wins his fights mainly through his Force power.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
No against Sidious you have to be all over him, providing you can compete, which those 3 simply couldn't as per Lucas.
LOL!
Anything Lucas says should be taken with a VERY hefty grain of salt.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
See, this is why Jensaarai1 and co. are smarter than you. They understand the importance of circumstances. ABC logic, saying "this guy beat this guy so he'll beat this other guy," is for idiots. You need to look at not just who won the fight but HOW they won the fight.
Ah yes, the old, you're right so I'll just pull out "ABC ARGUMENTS NEVER WORK" LOL
As soon as Jensaarai1 begins talking about HOW fights were won is usually the time when crap starts pouring out of his mouth.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Plo only lost because he was distracted by one of his troops being in danger and that gave Oppress an opening. The same thing happened when Optimus Prime was distracted by Spike screaming for help and Megatron knocked him off the dam while he was distracted. A win due to circumstances. The vast majority of their fights end with Megatron being driven off.
No, that's an excuse. Plo was already on the floor when the trooper shot at Opress. In fact Plo engaged Savage with the aid of a few Troopers, and Still Lost.
Opress won because he's overall more powerful than Plo in a fight.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
See the above point about ABC logic.
LOL Yes it's ALL ABC Logic. Anakin beating Count Dooku means nothing. Maul beating Qui-Gon also means nothing, because it's all just ABC LOL
Originally posted by chilled monkey
TCW showed that his usual tactic was "charge in without any kind of cover" and/or "march troops in plain sight out in the open."Oh yes, truly a tactical genus.
He literally beat renowned tactical genius Admiral Trench at his own game. When Obi-Wan was telling there's no hope of beating him head on.
He was the one who worked out how to put down the Zillo Beast without killing it. Which Mace wanted to do, but wasn't too bright on ideas on how to do that.
He got a rescue team to the Citadel getting past enemy sensors by freezing the crewe in Carbonite.
Have you actually seen the show, or can you only watch it through your Jensaarai1 goggles? We're shown over and over and over what a tactical genius he is. One stupid mistake against Obi-Wan when his mind had just been twisted by the dark side doesn't change his vast historical record of wins.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
So do have memory problems or did you just miss the part where I specifically noted that against a FASTER, MORE POWERFUL foe who takes the same approach will get one killed?Windu could pull it off because his use of Vaapad allowed him to match Palpatine's speed.
Actually Mace never matched Palpatine in speed, only in overall Saber Prowess. Mace was more visible to Anakin than Sidious, and Mace still refers to Sidious as a Blur even when fully delved in Vapaad.
Again read the passage but without your Jensaarai1 goggles this time.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Again, we are talking specifically about lightsabre duelling here. The fact that he would need to resort to "TK smacking you into oblivion" proves that he can't win purely through duelling skill. The point is that Palpatine isn't the greatest duellist in the galaxy. Good yes, but not the best ever. He wins his fights mainly through his Force power.
Well Force pushes are part and parcel of Saber fights just like physical attacks are. Of course Sidious has a big advantage in that department (just like he does in speed, and strength), but fact is nobody's going to challenge someone else to a "Sabers Only" fight. So that has to be taken into consideration when seeing whose the best Jedi to face him.
And btw Windu overpowered Sidious via a physical kick, not pure fencing.
Anyway as for "Sabers Only" Jensaarai1 claims those 3 were the worst to tackle Sidious because they're offensive fighters LOL. Firstly that's a poor poor excuse for their performance.
Defensive stance is the best against Grievous as we know, and yet Fisto performed just fine against him as we know. That was on his own, against Sidious he had Mace Windu fighting alongside him.
Second the first 2 didn't even get a chance to defend or attack, so it's just a stupid point to make there as well.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
LOL!Anything Lucas says should be taken with a VERY hefty grain of salt.
LOL Yes but Jensaarai1 is a much more reliable source, then the man who created Star Wars and who directed/wrote/oversaw the majority fights we're talking about.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Ah yes, the old, you're right so I'll just pull out "ABC ARGUMENTS NEVER WORK" LOLAs soon as Jensaarai1 begins talking about HOW fights were won is usually the time when crap starts pouring out of his mouth.
Can you provide any examples of such "crap" and reasons WHY they're "crap" or are you just throwing insults because you can't stand him being right?
Originally posted by Darth Thor
No, that's an excuse. Plo was already on the floor when the trooper shot at Opress. In fact Plo engaged Savage with the aid of a few Troopers, and Still Lost.Opress won because he's overall more powerful than Plo in a fight.
Nope. Plo is clearly standing when the trooper fires the shot and Plo yells "look out!" Immediately after this Opress rips his mask off (the other 2 panels are happening simultaneously). The artwork is clearly conveying that Plo was distracted and this gave Opress the opening he needed.
Those troopers were more of a hindrance than a help. Opress won by snatching off Plo's breath mask, something he was only able to do because Plo was distracted by the danger to the trooper. Power had nothing to do with it, it was entirely due to circumstances.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
LOL Yes it's ALL ABC Logic. Anakin beating Count Dooku means nothing. Maul beating Qui-Gon also means nothing, because it's all just ABC LOL
Now you're being lazy and/or dumb.
No-one's saying those wins "mean nothing." You just need to appreciate the context. Where did the fight take place? What tactical approaches did they use? What was going on in their minds at the time? And so on.
Point is, there are tons of variables and logistics that have to be looked at. Again, saying "this guy beat this guy so he beats this guy" or "this guy won so he's just better" is a 2 year old's thinking. You need to look at not just "who won" but "HOW they won." This is very simple. I don't see why this is so hard for you to understand.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
He literally beat renowned tactical genius Admiral Trench at his own game. When Obi-Wan was telling there's no hope of beating him head on.He was the one who worked out how to put down the Zillo Beast without killing it. Which Mace wanted to do, but wasn't too bright on ideas on how to do that.
He got a rescue team to the Citadel getting past enemy sensors by freezing the crewe in Carbonite.
Have you actually seen the show, or can you only watch it through your Jensaarai1 goggles? We're shown over and over and over what a tactical genius he is. One stupid mistake against Obi-Wan when his mind had just been twisted by the dark side doesn't change his vast historical record of wins.
I have to admit I've only watched a few episodes. I was mostly going by sfdebris reviews.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Actually Mace never matched Palpatine in speed, only in overall Saber Prowess. Mace was more visible to Anakin than Sidious, and Mace still refers to Sidious as a Blur even when fully delved in Vapaad.Again read the passage but without your Jensaarai1 goggles this time.
Okay I've read the passage. Here is a quote:
his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze... made a haze of its own; an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.The shadow he fought, that blur of speed- could that be Palpatine?
Here we see more evidence of Palpatine's sloppiness. From the description he is basically zooming all over the place like an insane bluebottle. Very wasteful. Mace by contrast is moving as fast or at least close enough, but he's more visible to Anakin because rather than zoom around he is mainly just moving his blade. Far more skilful and efficient.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well Force pushes are part and parcel of Saber fights just like physical attacks are. Of course Sidious has a big advantage in that department (just like he does in speed, and strength), but fact is nobody's going to challenge someone else to a "Sabers Only" fight. So that has to be taken into consideration when seeing whose the best Jedi to face him.And btw Windu overpowered Sidious via a physical kick, not pure fencing.
True, but booting someone in the chest is still fighting skill, not supernatural powers. Whether its striking with a kick/punch or a blade it's still martial arts skill.
Yes its true that in a "real fight" nobody's going to challenge someone else to a "Sabers Only" fight but we need to look at hypotheticals. The point of the video was to establish that Palpatine is NOT invincible, he has weaknesses same as anyone else and CAN be beaten. While they admit that he is a "master duellist" he's not the best of the best in terms of pure skill and so "could" be beaten in a pure sabre duel.
Obviously that would never "really" happen because as you say, nobody's going to challenge someone else to a "Sabers Only" fight but its still a point to consider in a purely hypothetical sense.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Anyway as for "Sabers Only" Jensaarai1 claims those 3 were the worst to tackle Sidious because they're offensive fighters LOL. Firstly that's a poor poor excuse for their performance.Defensive stance is the best against Grievous as we know, and yet Fisto performed just fine against him as we know. That was on his own, against Sidious he had Mace Windu fighting alongside him.
See this is where you need to look at different fighting styles, logistics etc. EvanNova95 made a very good point about the Kit vs. Grievous duel. Hear me out on this.
He pointed out that Grievous fighting style relies on multi-angled offensives that numerous sources have described as being like fighting a large group of foes. In other words Kit's Form I, usually bad against single foes, worked well against Grievous because of the nature of Grievous's technique.
Also saying "Mace was with him" is a poor excuse. It doesn't change the fact that Kit himself parried those strikes.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Second the first 2 didn't even get a chance to defend or attack, so it's just a stupid point to make there as well.
True. I've pointed out elsewhere that they had the bad fortune to be standing closer to Palpatine when he struck so one can't really use that as proof that Kit is better than them.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
LOL Yes but Jensaarai1 is a much more reliable source, then the man who created Star Wars and who directed/wrote/oversaw the majority fights we're talking about.
Yes he is.
Need I remind you that George Lucas wrote this line here:
"The speediest way to get to the Naboo is going through the planet's core."
Need I say more? No, but I'll say it anyway.
Lucas has repeatedly been inconsistent, contradictory and clearly makes everything up as he goes. The Prequel Trilogy was so full of plot-holes it needed a ton of EU material to make sense. Plus one time when he was asked "how did Anakin get that scar?" he replied "he slipped in a bathtub." That's how little Lucas cares.
So yes, I have far more faith in Jensaarai1's view. At least he actually puts some thought into his work. At least he actually cares about what he does.
Also anyone who thinks "we should accept everything Lucas says without thought or question" is an idiot.