Originally posted by JKBart
[b]chilled monkey, I really hope this post will open some eyes here on KMC. You are an hero KMC needs. [/B]
Thank you very much. I appreciate that.
Originally posted by Aurbere
TBH, I'd rather take George's word over Jensaarai1's. I prefer Anakin getting a scar from a bathroom accident over Sidious being a terrible duelist.
Beg your pardon but I think you're misunderstanding here.
EvanNova95 and co. are NOT claiming that Palpatine's a terrible duellist. They go out of their way several times to state that he's a "master duellist." They simply point out that he's not the best swordsman ever since a lot of his wins are mainly due to his Force powers, in particular super strength and speed. This isn't due to a lack of skill, he simply chooses this approach due to personal preference.
They also make it very clear that the list of people who can defeat Palpatine is VERY small and most of those have only a slight chance of beating him.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
EvanNova95 and co. are NOT claiming that Palpatine's a terrible duellist. They go out of their way several times to state that he's a "master duellist." They simply point out that he's not the best swordsman ever since a lot of his wins are mainly due to his Force powers, in particular super strength and speed.
Issue is, they're still wrong. Every source that describes his skills describe him as the epitome of lightsaber mastery. George himself, TCW insiders, in-universe descriptions from other characters, and Legends sourcebooks will all point you towards the same answer. Every single one.
You can squeal all you want about "critical thinking", but putting your own assertions and opinions over the very clear and repeated descriptions of the material and expecting others to do the same just makes you a conceited ignoramus.
Also, the fact that they're favoring the choreography that an out of shape McDiarmond allegedly spent less than a week practicing over the canonical position is absurd and should be treated as such.
EDIT: Also, it's probably an issue that you thanked Bart for him telling you that you should kill yourself. Or did you not catch that?
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Can you provide any examples of such "crap" and reasons WHY they're "crap" or are you just throwing insults because you can't stand him being right?
Just saying Anakin's an idiot is him talking rubbish. That's just plain bias against the character.
And he speculates way too much on clash of styles. Clash of styles is always a speculative argument, so we should always go by proof in what's actually happened in a SW fight. Instead of speculating.
For instance find another example of Fisto quickly getting overpowered when up against a faster fighter who fights offensively, before claiming factually that's the reason Fisto went down quickly to Sidious.
Or at least go by a canon quote which says the same thing.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Nope. Plo is clearly standing when the trooper fires the shot and Plo yells "look out!" Immediately after this Opress rips his mask off (the other 2 panels are happening simultaneously). The artwork is clearly conveying that Plo was distracted and this gave Opress the opening he needed.Those troopers were more of a hindrance than a help. Opress won by snatching off Plo's breath mask, something he was only able to do because Plo was distracted by the danger to the trooper. Power had nothing to do with it, it was entirely due to circumstances.
I can't find the exact image to post it, but he was booted in the face before he warned the trooper.
And yes, he was on his knees at the time. So he was already on the losing end of that fight. Plo isn't this much shorter than Opress:
In any case shouting to a clone trooper really shouldn't cost him the fight if he's really > Maul and Anakin like these claim, with absolutely no feats or evidence to back that up.
Don't see how this was more of a hindrance to Plo than to Opress:
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Now you're being lazy and/or dumb.No-one's saying those wins "mean nothing."
When you ignore straight up one sided wins by quoting "ABC Failed Logic" then that's the route you're taking.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
You just need to appreciate the context. Where did the fight take place? What tactical approaches did they use? What was going on in their minds at the time? And so on.Point is, there are tons of variables and logistics that have to be looked at. Again, saying "this guy beat this guy so he beats this guy" or "this guy won so he's just better" is a 2 year old's thinking. You need to look at not just "who won" but "HOW they won." This is very simple. I don't see why this is so hard for you to understand.
And I can accept that when it comes to something like a one time fight with Mace beating Palpatine.
But for something Anakin challenging Dooku throughout TCW when Kenobi never could? That's not down to context, that's simply Anakin being a more powerful combatant.
Same with Sidious blitzing the B-Team. It really wouldn't have mattered what style they used.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
I have to admit I've only watched a few episodes. I was mostly going by sfdebris reviews.
Well anyone whose seen the series and still says "Anakin loses to Plo Koon because he's dumb" is being disingenuous to say the least.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Here we see more evidence of Palpatine's sloppiness. From the description he is basically zooming all over the place like an insane bluebottle. Very wasteful. Mace by contrast is moving as fast or at least close enough, but he's more visible to Anakin because rather than zoom around he is mainly just moving his blade. Far more skilful and efficient.
Mace also calls him a blur. In any case, if Mace did match Sidious's speed then it just means Sidious is as skilled as Mace for stalemating him.
If Mace didn't match Sidious's speed, then that means the theory of "Offensive fighters will instantly lose against faster and more powerful offensive fighters" is proven to be false within the rules of the Star Wars Universe.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
True, but booting someone in the chest is still fighting skill, not supernatural powers. Whether its striking with a kick/punch or a blade it's still martial arts skill.
And neither are kicks anywhere near as effective in real like fencing as they are when these supernatural beings fight each other.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Yes its true that in a "real fight" nobody's going to challenge someone else to a "Sabers Only" fight
Glad we agree on that.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
but we need to look at hypotheticals. The point of the video was to establish that Palpatine is NOT invincible, he has weaknesses same as anyone else and CAN be beaten. While they admit that he is a "master duellist" he's not the best of the best in terms of pure skill and so "could" be beaten in a pure sabre duel.Obviously that would never "really" happen because as you say, nobody's going to challenge someone else to a "Sabers Only" fight but its still a point to consider in a purely hypothetical sense.
Of course he CAN be beaten. Given that Mace beat him in a Saber match up (within context and circumstances of course) and Yoda possibly beat him in the Saber match as well.
But saying "He's a Master but just not That much of a Master" is stretching. It's obviously hard to determine just HOW much of a Master he is without having his fight someone equally as Powerful. The closest to that was Yoda, whome he clearly did hold his own against for a while at least. I doubt he would have lasted 30 seconds if the Skill difference between them was that huge.
All we Factually know is:
1)He is a Master of ALL Forms. That in itself means he's an incredibly skilled duelist. "Master" duellist isn't just a term they hand out to anyone.
2) He held his own against the Best Duelist in the Jedi Order, whose almost equally as Powerful, for a good minute at least. At no point did that Saber fight look completely one sided IMO.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
See this is where you need to look at different fighting styles, logistics etc. EvanNova95 made a very good point about the Kit vs. Grievous duel. Hear me out on this.He pointed out that Grievous fighting style relies on multi-angled offensives that numerous sources have described as being like fighting a large group of foes. In other words Kit's Form I, usually bad against single foes, worked well against Grievous because of the nature of Grievous's technique.
So you think Fisto would have lasted longer against Sidious if Sidious used Dual Sabers? Somehow I doubt that. He was just completely outmatched. Different styles really wouldn't have meant much in that scenario.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Also saying "Mace was with him" is a poor excuse. It doesn't change the fact that Kit himself parried those strikes.
With the other 2 Mace was Just There. But with Fisto he fought alongside him, with Sidious in between them both, and not using Jar Kai or anything either. That of course makes a huge difference.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
True. I've pointed out elsewhere that they had the bad fortune to be standing closer to Palpatine when he struck so one can't really use that as proof that Kit is better than them.
Agreed. I don't think those 2 are massively below Fisto.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Yes he is.Need I remind you that George Lucas wrote this line here:
"The speediest way to get to the Naboo is going through the planet's core."
Need I say more? No, but I'll say it anyway.
Lucas has repeatedly been inconsistent, contradictory and clearly makes everything up as he goes. The Prequel Trilogy was so full of plot-holes it needed a ton of EU material to make sense. Plus one time when he was asked "how did Anakin get that scar?" he replied "he slipped in a bathtub." That's how little Lucas cares.
So yes, I have far more faith in Jensaarai1's view. At least he actually puts some thought into his work. At least he actually cares about what he does.
Also anyone who thinks "we should accept everything Lucas says without thought or question" is an idiot.
Lucas has contradicted himself many times, I agree. But he was the guy in charge of Star Wars for so many years/decades even. And he did create not only Star Wars itself, by ROTS and TCW. So he alone knows the reason why the B-Team couldn't last against Sidious, and he answered that straight.
End of the day, Lucas is a Canon source (or at least he was, and guess he always will be to an extent).
Jensaarai1 isn't. He can't just give us "facts", without giving us a source.
Originally posted by McP
jensarry about skills in a lightsabers
Vader = Koon
Vader >= Malgus
Vader > Yoda
Malgus >= Dooku
Maul > Dooku
Kenobi > Sidious
Kenobi > YodaHe's rivaled only by ret(ard)i4 with his:
Koon and Ti > Maul and Dooku because of teamwork
Koon=Vader>Yoda
Koon>Yoda
Kenobi>Yoda
Kenobi>Sidious
Holy shit what?
Yeah, that's funny XD
He declared Veder and Koon to be equal in martial arts and dueling. He also stated, that defensive Djem So users are a great counter to Yoda's style. He declared Vader as superior to Plo due to superior Force powers and strenght.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCYDE_BIilo
He states here, that Malak is superior duelist to Yoda.
Question: Could Sidious penetrate Kenobi's master level Soresu defense through lightsaber skills only? I'd like to think he couldn't but I really don't know.
jensarrys's answer:
In my mind, there is no way Palpatine could get through Kenobi's lightsaber defense. For all intents and purposes, all Palpatine is bringing on is an overwhelming quantity of attacks, which Kenobi has already proven that he can deal with.
Originally posted by McP
Yeah, that's funny XDHe declared Veder and Koon to be equal in martial arts and dueling. He also stated, that defensive Djem So users are a great counter to Yoda's style. He declared Vader as superior to Plo due to superior Force powers and strenght.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCYDE_BIilo
He states here, that Malak is superior duelist to Yoda.Question: Could Sidious penetrate Kenobi's master level Soresu defense through lightsaber skills only? I'd like to think he couldn't but I really don't know.
jensarrys's answer:
In my mind, there is no way Palpatine could get through Kenobi's lightsaber defense. For all intents and purposes, all Palpatine is bringing on is an overwhelming quantity of attacks, which Kenobi has already proven that he can deal with.
By his logic Grievous should be a dueling equal if not superior to Sidious.