Originally posted by Astner
Can Dream actually control people's dreams though? Because I'm pretty sure that Death can't take lives at her whim.
Dream is literally omnipotent in the dreaming, which is the realm of dreams.
It's been actually stated that Death can do whatever the hell she wants, unlike the other endless who are bound by rules set by a higher power (Presence).
Originally posted by leonidasi'll trust you that there is no more explicit statement than that, but that was a minor point in any event in what i was saying.
Originally posted by leonidasas i said--my MAIN point was the conflating of lt's representation of toaa and his having the power of said being.
And not exactly TOAA-God.
Originally posted by leonidasi think it is evident that lt>ig. in the scene you posted (which may have been the one zop was talking about, or not, i have no idea what he was trying to get at...) he says he was ordered to give up his power, and he did. it was always pretty clear to me that, while it may have taken a fight, lt would have won.
Originally posted by leonidasfurther confirmed by lt's ability to render the ig powerless.
The Gems separately were just fine. Although we should note, once the IG was functional, turning it off was another matter.
At the behest of the LT, Eternity made the IG function with a single phrase during Infinity War,
but then, to take it off of Magus, Eternity merged with Infinity in a monumental battle vs the IG (incomplete)
Wishing things to change, or spoken commands weren't going to work.
Originally posted by leonidasall of that just goes to confirm that god>>>>>lt>ig. the difference is likely greater than that though, as lt confirmed toaa dwarfed the ig. completely different levels of infinite power are being compared here.
Although yes, the gap between TOAA and the IG or LT is infinite.
Originally posted by Galan007
^ Which also means dreamers would have to predate The Presence.
So if the Presence was dreamt into being, then he would've been dreamt into having always existed.
So it's not really contradictory.
Originally posted by AstnerI know what they did. I posted that entire scene on the last page. 👆
That is actually incorrect. According to A Dream of a Thousand Cats, because of the dream the cats were never the rulers.So if the Presence was dreamt into being, then he would've been dreamt into having always existed.
So it's not really contradictory.
Anyway, IF the Presence were reliant on dreamers to exist, then it means they would've needed to exist BEFORE him, otherwise they could have never shaped him to begin with. Essentially, the creations would have to predate the creator, which makes NO sense... Especially when we know the Presence(along with Michael/Lucifer) canonically predate 'the beginning of all things':
Furthermore, dreamers creating the Presence would also give Dream of the Endless a degree of control over him--which also makes no canonical sense. As I keep reiterating: Dream is decisively below the likes of Lucifer and Michael... Never mind the friggin Presence, lol.
I dunno, unless we ever get some sort of official(key word) evidence to the contrary, that guy's alleged interview with Carey is pretty much debunked on all avenues, imo.
Originally posted by AstnerIt is the only viable option that can actually be somewhat substantiated, though. It seems like you're trying to run with an alleged interview that someone on the internet claimed to have with Carey, instead of looking at the actual material from an in-universe POV.
There's no substantial evidence that supports the speculation that it was a meta-fictional reference to the writers either. So it seems to be a bit misleading to present said interpretation as the only viable interpretation.
Trying to apply the concept established in Sandman #18 to the Presence, goes against every shred of canon that we currently have.
Originally posted by Galan007
It is the only viable option that can actually be substantiated, though. It seems like you're trying to run with an alleged interview that someone on the internet claimed to have with Carey, instead of looking at the actual material from an in-universe POV.
I'm not saying that interview happened, I'm simply entertaining the idea.
Originally posted by Galan007
Trying to use the concept established in Sandman #18 goes against every shred of canon that we currently have.
Originally posted by AstnerDreamers using dreams to manifest a 'Supreme Being' would only result in the creation of Dream of the Endless and The Dreaming, though. That literally defines what he embodies as a concept... That literally defines his purpose.
No. If the Presence was dreamt into existence as supreme, then he'd be above everyone including Dream. Just because he was created through dreams doesn't mean he can be destroyed by them.
Originally posted by AstnerAs am I. And I have thoroughly explained why that theory cannot be a canon 'origin' for The Presence. It is contradicted by what we know to be canon.
I'm not saying that interview happened, I'm simply entertaining the idea.
Originally posted by Galan007
Dreamers manifesting a 'Supreme Being' would only result in the creation of Dream of the Endless and The Dreaming, though. That literally defines what he embodies as a concept... That literally defines his purpose.
Originally posted by Galan007
As am I. And I have thoroughly explained why that theory cannot be a canon 'origin' for The Presence. It is contradicted by what we know to be canon.
Originally posted by AstnerDream IS supreme within the Dreaming.
The Dream of the Endless certainly isn't supreme, so the dream would've been unrealized if it only created him.
So I say again: dreamers using dreams to manifest a 'Supreme Being' would only result in the creation of Dream of the Endless and The Dreaming. That literally defines what he embodies as a concept... That literally defines his purpose. He IS dreams. That's his essential function.
Originally posted by AstnerYes, and as I have already explained: The Presence(along with Lucifer and Michael) predate 'the beginning':
The argument of predating doesn't apply since the dream "changes the universe from the very beginning."
First came The Presence. Then came Michael/Lucifer. Then came everyone/thing else.
Originally posted by Galan007
Dream IS supreme within the Dreaming.
Originally posted by Galan007
So I say again: dreamers using dreams to manifest a 'Supreme Being' would only result in the creation of Dream of the Endless and The Dreaming. That literally defines what he embodies as a concept... That literally defines his purpose. He IS dreams. That's his essential function.
Originally posted by Galan007
Yes, and as I have already explained: The Presence(along with Lucifer and Michael) predate 'the beginning':First came The Presence. Then came Michael/Lucifer. Then came everyone/thing else.
The cats' universe never existed. It didn't predate or postdate anything.
So you can't address it in terms of x predates y, therefore y couldn't explain x.
Originally posted by AstnerBut it's still a dream... Which is precisely what Dream of the Endless embodies. That's the whole point behind his conceptual purpose.
But not outside of it, which is what the dream would entail.
Originally posted by AstnerIf that universe never existed, then Dream would have no recollection of it now would he? But he does, so therefore it did(on some level.) 🙂
By that reasoning A Dream of a Thousand Cats couldn't have happened at all, or at the very least not the rule of the cats. Because the point of the story is that dreams shape reality.The dream changed the beginning. Men became kings and gods because they dreamed it. But they didn't "become" it in the traditional sense of the word, because in their universe they had always been kings and gods.
The cats' universe never existed. It didn't predate or postdate anything.
So you can't address it in terms of x predates y, therefore y couldn't explain x.
Again: The Presence canonically predates ALL. The theory that he came into being via the dreams of in-universe characters is sharply contradicted by canon material, and literally supported by nothing of substance. Not sure why you're trying to argue against canon..?
Originally posted by Galan007
The Presence canonically predates ALL.
From what I'm gathering, Astner is sayin that they dreamed the concept of an eternal Presence.
So, because they dreamed it, the Presence always was. That is a bit confusing but in comics, anything goes.
I think this would be based on RL idealisms in a way, like:
We believe "God" is eternal/forever therefore, he must be? or rather, he is?
It's as though We ourselves have molded said concept into being.
uhh, something like that? I guess? Perhaps?
Originally posted by Mr MasterOh I understand what he's saying. However, that theory is supported by absolutely no canon material. Literally none at all.
I have no opinion on what's right or not here.From what I'm gathering, Astner is sayin that they dreamed the concept of an eternal Presence.
So, because they dreamed it, the Presence always was. That is a bit confusing but in comics, anything goes.
I think this would be based on RL idealisms in a way, like:
We believe "God" is eternal/forever therefore, he must be? or rather, he is?
It's as though We ourselves have molded said concept into being.uhh, something like that? I guess? Perhaps?
All Sandman #18 factually told us is that the dreamers were able to essentially reboot the universe back to 'the beginning of all things' with their dreams. That is ALL they were said to have done.
However, the Presence predates 'the beginning of all things' --even the concept of dream-- and as such, NO evidence alludes to him being shaped by dreamers. Furthermore, if the Presence were dreamt into creation, he'd automatically fall under the umbrella that Dream of the Endless encompasses. Essentially, the concept Dream embodies would have ushered his creator into being--which we know is certainly NOT accurate. The Presence created Dream(and ALL of The Endless for that matter), not the other way around.
So while I understand what he's saying, I can tell you with confidence that it is inaccurate.
Originally posted by Mr Master
The Eternity that appeared in JLA Avengers was a single Universe located within a Multiverse both companies shared.
No it wasn't. It was the totality of the marvel universe.
I did. And what?
And you bled some more.
Same guy who wrote in the info in your super OVER-SIZED scan, is the same guy who wrote that "paddled BS"
One is authorized and official from both DC and Marvel
Second is not.
So, flip a coin when you decide to recognize something or not..
I don't have to.
😆 ... I see you went ahead and found that scan somewhere and thought you had something.
The Handbook references DC vs Marvel [b]#3 specifically. lol
That's where LT and Spectre merged both Brothers by force:
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This "merger" created the Handbook recognized "Pocket-Reality 9602"
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As soon as the "merger" was separated (pg.12 of #4) ... "Pocket-Reality 9602" never existed again.
The Brothers were nearly destroyed during the separation had Access not helped. lol
I'm not sure what you're trying to do here? LT and Spectre were like Specks to the Brothers.
They essentially suckered them while they were fighting.
Also amalgam universe survived in All Access.
But why does that matters when it's directly stated that LT and Spectre are equals?
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So, since what's being highlighted here by Marvel, is the LT and Spectre owning the Brothers,
and both Brothers nearly getting obliterated during the separation process,
I'm gonna go ahead and assume you'll dismiss this event now.So ... you better get a bigger knife if you wish to see blood flow. [/B]
Do you always lie so much?
