Cap Vs Cap Vs Cap Vs Cap

After recent discussions, I am genuinely curious to see what some people think here.
- Cap as his in TFA
- Cap as he is in Avengers
- Cap as he is in TWS
- Cap as he is in AoU.

Match 1 - Bench pressing contest
Match 2 - Durability contest
Match 3 - 100m race

All of them are equally rested and operating at their physical peak. So what happens?

I personally feel that without any external factors, all 3 should be a 4-way tie, by virtue of Cap still being the same PINNACLE of human potential regardless of which version we are using. And combat skill is not a factor here. But some other people apparently feel differently, so I am curious to see their reasoning for it.

TWS version stomps in 1, 2 and 3...

Again, based on what? He has more feats, but there is no evidence to suggest that feats of pure speed or strength are things he only could achieve at certain points, considering he has been at his very peak, from a physical standpoint, throughout his career. The difference is combat experience and skill, which has allowed him to develop as a better fighter and more effective field operative, but there are no fights in this thread. What you are saying is that you feel that TWS Cap is somehow physically superior to himself at other times, even though I specifically said that all are operating at their peak, which is the peak of humanity itself. So from a logical point of view, it makes no sense.

Should put in the 90's Capt too for lol's.

The thing is, that while it might be the same character the feats attributated to each varies with each movie. For instance First Avenger Cap, doesn't have the feats of Ultron Cap, who has the benefits of 3 additional movies to showcase his strength. From my perspective it's about the feats.

Ultimate Avengers Cap is pretty bad ass.

Training still affects him, he wasn't just made perfect in FA and that's it, no room to improve, he trains as the series goes on, gets stronger, reactions get better, skill increases via experience. Its a clear progression, the movies have shown this, imo.

FA Cap would have gotten his arse kicked by WS AND Ultron. His acquired skill by that point through training his physicality allowed him to further improve on his stats.

That is speculation though. We are told that the SS serum's purpose is to enhance someone to the very pinnacle of human biology. Pinnacle is pretty clearly defined. I have never once argued that he hasn't increased in skill. But developing better fighting skills will not make you bench press more or run faster. While the serum is active in his bloodstream, it keeps him at that same level. He trains to maintain and improve his skill level, but I eliminated that element from this thread. This is all of them purely pushing as hard as they can physically, without skill levels or other external factors influencing things.

Let me put it this way. Do people believe that Thor is more durable in his first film or AoU than he is in Avengers? He doesn't tank a city or bifrost explosion in it after all. It's the exact same principle here. Cap trained and DID improve his skill, and his combat ability, and his overall effectiveness as a field agent, but what proof do we have that he physically became any stronger, more durable etc.? What proof is there that he couldn't have held a similar weight to the car in AoU during WW2? What proof do we have that Bucky's metal arm would have had any more effect on him in any other scenario than it did on the helicarrier? See my point? People take things like Thor's durability for granted, because it is part of his power set. But so is all of Steve's stats, thanks to the SS serum.

KT seems to think that Cap has a dynamic power-set, in that his stats increase/decrease depending on......Actually, I'm not entirely sure what KT thinks triggers Cap's dynamic factor.

Me neither. I made this thread so that this whole thing can be cleared up.

Another thing to consider is that one of Cap's best feat sets, from an pure athletic standpoint, is one of his earliest in the films. He chases down a car on foot, then outswims a friggin' submarine, then punches through the glass, despite both being in motion, there being water resistance, and him punching at an awkward angle, and then he still tossed the guy out of the water without having anything to brace his feet against. That showed immense speed, stamina, strength, and a degree of durability, and that showing is arguably as good as any of his pure athletic showings in any of the films.

Is Kurupt worth making a thread over? I don't think so.

It's not about him though. As seen in this thread already, there are others who hold similar viewpoints. I am trying to understand where this viewpoint comes from. I want to know why some people seem to believe that Steve somehow gained significant increases in pure physical stats, despite the fact that based on his powerset, he is always operating at the very peak of human physical potential at any given time.

Being able to go toe to toe with Ultron for an extended peroid may be his best sheer battle feat. Plus being able to toss a motorcycle with enough force to collapse the front of a military Humvee.

Plus taking hits from Pietro, Ultron, and Iron man are probably some of his best if not his best durability feats.

So I would go with AoU Cap to win this one. AoU has his best feats.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
It's not about him though. As seen in this thread already, there are others who hold similar viewpoints. I am trying to understand where this viewpoint comes from. I want to know why some people seem to believe that Steve somehow gained significant increases in pure physical stats, despite the fact that based on his powerset, he is always operating at the very peak of human physical potential at any given time.

If you had asked me could Cap from First Avengers have gone toe to toe with Ultron based only on his feats from the first movie I would have said Cap would get massacred.

And as always this up to the OP to decide if they want to limit the feats and abilities a character can draw on.

This is not a fight though. This is purely a contest of physical effort. I would say that keeping up with a car, even one from the 1940s, is his best sprinting feat, along with when he seemingly covered several blocks in very short order during the final battle in Avengers. And tossing a fully grown man out of the water without any kind of leverage or support for his feet is as good a strength feat as any other he has had. People really don't seem to grasp how ridiculously strong someone would have to be to actually do that.

As to the Ultron fight... yes he would have done worse. But I personally do not believe it is because of any physical difference, but because he displays a significant increase in skill level over the films. Fact remains that there is nothing to suggest that he wouldn't have displayed the same level of durability or strength if they fought at an earlier time, but it is clear that he would not have displayed the same level of combat prowess.

Yes he gets more feats, but not all are better, other than the ones that show his skill progression. As I pointed out, some of his best pure athletic feats come from the first film.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
This is not a fight though. This is purely a contest of physical effort. I would say that keeping up with a car, even one from the 1940s, is his best sprinting feat, along with when he seemingly covered several blocks in very short order during the final battle in Avengers. And tossing a fully grown man out of the water without any kind of leverage or support for his feet is as good a strength feat as any other he has had. People really don't seem to grasp how ridiculously strong someone would have to be to actually do that.

But someone that can go toe to toe with Ironman or Ultron needs to be even stronger than that. Plus I would put the motorcycle toss as a clearly greater strength feat than those. The force he threw it with was enough to crush a humvee head on.

Also his best sprinting/running feat probably came in WS when he was clearly blitzing past Falcon on the track.

It's also his best endurance feat as even after all that running he wasn't showing any signs of fatigue.

Durability wise taking hits from Iron Man and Ultron and Pietro are probably greater than anything else he has taken without the shield. Maybe the the hellicarrier to hellicarrier jump in WS maybe close.

Now it doesn't surprise me that Cap can do those things but at the same time to not say there are clearly far better feats past the first one is selling the progression short.

Without any leverage makes it a whole lot harder. He was tossing heavily armoured guys with his feet firmly planted on the ground. He had to toss the guy basically purely with arm/upper body motion, and hard enough so that he went flying out of the water, despite the water resistance and gravity fighting him. Bike toss was very good, but I would actually still rate the car hold as a better feat in that film. He had physics backing him up a bit with the bike toss, where he had physics fighting him its damnest with the car feat. Same with the water toss feat.

I disagree on the running thing though. While I would put that as one of his best endurance/stamina feats, it is really hard to work out how fast he was going. Keeping up with an actual car on foot clearly requires much greater running speed than even a highly trained human can achieve.

But that is my point. He took those hits in AoU, but also took chitauri blasts in other Avengers, and the WS face beatdown in yet another film. So what evidence is there to suggest that any of those attacks would have affected him any differently, if he had suffered them at other times, when again, the SS serum pushed him to the very peak of humanity. No amount of conditioning can make your face suddenly capable of tanking concrete crushing punches or energy blasts that can blow up cars etc. especially when all those things are supposedly at their very best already, thanks to the SS serum.

People keep bringing skill into it, but I am not talking about skill or combat showings. We know his skill has improved, and as a result, he gets more impressive combat showings. But I still don't see any concrete evidence to suggest that he couldn't replicate any of his athletic/stat/physical feats outside of the films in which he did them.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Without any leverage makes it a whole lot harder. He was tossing heavily armoured guys with his feet firmly planted on the ground. He had to toss the guy basically purely with arm/upper body motion, and hard enough so that he went flying out of the water, despite the water resistance and gravity fighting him. Bike toss was very good, but I would actually still rate the car hold as a better feat in that film. He had physics backing him up a bit with the bike toss, where he had physics fighting him its damnest with the car feat. Same with the water toss feat.

I disagree on the running thing though. While I would put that as one of his best endurance/stamina feats, it is really hard to work out how fast he was going. Keeping up with an actual car on foot clearly requires much greater running speed than even a highly trained human can achieve.

But that is my point. He took those hits in AoU, but also took chitauri blasts in other Avengers, and the WS face beatdown in yet another film. So what evidence is there to suggest that any of those attacks would have affected him any differently, if he had suffered them at other times, when again, the SS serum pushed him to the very peak of humanity. No amount of conditioning can make your face suddenly capable of tanking concrete crushing punches or energy blasts that can blow up cars etc. especially when all those things are supposedly at their very best already, thanks to the SS serum.

People keep bringing skill into it, but I am not talking about skill or combat showings. We know his skill has improved, and as a result, he gets more impressive combat showings. But I still don't see any concrete evidence to suggest that he couldn't replicate any of his athletic/stat/physical feats outside of the films in which he did them.

Also the car running feat can be ambitious is as well. First of all it was a 1935 automobile and secondly he only kept up with it while it was in crowded streets and when the car had a clear line it was able to pull away from Cap. It is still a good feat. Where as Cap clearly continuously laps an in shape veteran multiple times at a clear sprinting speed. To me that is better.

Iron man's strength feats from IM1 crap all over the water treading throwing feat.

And that's fair the car holding feat was better. But that's my point is that he still has better feats in other movies.

There was clearly feat progression throughout the movies. Once again I wouldn't say they were so much better that I couldn't believe Cap did them. But the point remains there is progression. Without taking other move feats into account and knowing what Ultron is capable of would you say Cap from TFA would be able to go toe to toe with him.

I definitely would say no. Ultron was close to IM power and if we went only by TFA Cap IM's feats crap all over them.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
It's not about him though. As seen in this thread already, there are others who hold similar viewpoints. I am trying to understand where this viewpoint comes from. I want to know why some people seem to believe that Steve somehow gained significant increases in pure physical stats, despite the fact that based on his powerset, he is always operating at the very peak of human physical potential at any given time.

LMAO the thread didn't go at all as you planned.

The point is, while they are the same character with the same potential, to think he can't get better or improve his abilities is beyond stupid. That is EXACTLY what he's done since FA Cap. Which is the point, he's gotten better. You even tried to weight your argument in your favor thinking people would agree with you, only that backfired. You made a thread about their physical strength only and would all three be able to do the same thing. Which is a far far cry from the discussion in the other thread where his skill and abilities increased, which is what is relevant is a vs. fight. That was the distinction in the other thread and the difference. You tried to make a topic which had next to nothing to do with the other discussion because you felt it helped your case... only it didn't.

Cap is badass period... in Civil War he will be even more badass