Originally posted by Newjak
The throwing armor people in the air came in TFA. I was showing other great strength feats in it.Also the car running feat can be ambitious is as well. First of all it was a 1935 automobile and secondly he only kept up with it while it was in crowded streets and when the car had a clear line it was able to pull away from Cap. It is still a good feat. Where as Cap clearly continuously laps an in shape veteran multiple times at a clear sprinting speed. To me that is better.
Iron man's strength feats from IM1 crap all over the water treading throwing feat.
And that's fair the car holding feat was better. But that's my point is that he still has better feats in other movies.
There was clearly feat progression throughout the movies. Once again I wouldn't say they were so much better that I couldn't believe Cap did them. But the point remains there is progression. Without taking other move feats into account and knowing what Ultron is capable of would you say Cap from TFA would be able to go toe to toe with him.
I definitely would say no. Ultron was close to IM power and if we went only by TFA Cap IM's feats crap all over them.
There were clear straights where he was not picking up any distance on Rogers. There was also an instance where Steve accidentally misjudged his own momentum and crashed through a shop window, costing him time. A few other good moments involved jumping from moving car to moving car to get on top of the getaway vehicle, and when the car crashed and tumbled at fairly high speed, he got tossed like a ragdoll but recovered through the air enough to come up in a roll. He also gets shot in the side, but other than showing mild discomfort, keeps on going, and then proceeds to do the whole submarine chase down and water toss thing. And at the end, as per normal, he isn't even out of breath. I still think that is as good a showing as he has had, considering he did that all after literally just being transformed into a super soldier, and not having any kind of time to adapt.
Iron Man is still a lot stronger than Cap now. For everything Ultron also threw at him in their first fight, it barely did more than scratch the paint on Tony's armour. On the other side, every hit Tony made did visible damage to Ultron. Ultron was not in Tony's league in that fight, but he was enough of a distraction to pull him away from the main conflict so that SW could do her thing on the team.
Also, why are you seemingly comparing everything to TFA Cap specifically here? Not saying you are, but it seems like you are. This is an evaluation across the board. Because as seen by StiltmanFTW's posts, there are those that believe that TWS is the superior version. Like I have mentioned before, this thread is more about his actual powerset and how it may or may not have somehow amped/fluctuated over time, based on people's opinions.
Yes and as I said, I would agree 100% with you that Cap would fare worse against Ultron based purely on his TFA feats, but that is because he doesn't display the same level of skill and combat effectiveness in the TFA that he develops. Because as I have mentioned before, he does develop his skill level and gets more used to his abilities. A good example is the chase with the car in TFA actually. He totally misjudged his own speed and went crashing right through a shop window, landing on his face. A veteran Cap, with more time to adjust to the enhancements would of course not be so clumsy. Guess what it comes down to is that I believe he had the potential to do any of the pure physical feats, like running, lifting, taking hits etc. that he does in the films. But that does not mean I think he could duplicate any feat from any film at any time. Certain things which actually also require a level of skill, like some of his parkour moves or his fighting style, would have had to have developed over time, though for Steve it probably went a hell of a lot quicker than normal.
Or if looking at it from another point of view, if in a hypothetical situation you knew how skilled and effective Steve is by the end of AoU, but you only had one film's pure feats of strength, speed etc. to go on (and it might not even be AoU) would you find anything he accomplished in the other films out of the ordinary if you watched them, knowing he had the skill and training to go along with the SS serum? Like if you only saw him in Avengers, but without seeing it beforehand, you knew he developed gymnastic skills that would put a gold medalist to shame, would the Jet kill he did in TWS raise your eyebrows? Hopefully that question makes sense. 😆
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
LMAO the thread didn't go at all as you planned.The point is, while they are the same character with the same potential, to think he can't get better or improve his abilities is beyond stupid. That is EXACTLY what he's done since FA Cap. Which is the point, he's gotten better. You even tried to weight your argument in your favor thinking people would agree with you, only that backfired. You made a thread about their physical strength only and would all three be able to do the same thing. Which is a far far cry from the discussion in the other thread where his skill and abilities increased, which is what is relevant is a vs. fight. That was the distinction in the other thread and the difference. You tried to make a topic which had next to nothing to do with the other discussion because you felt it helped your case... only it didn't.
No, this thread is going exactly as I had planned. I genuinely wanted a civil discussion with people with regarding to the feats and why they feel it warrants saying there is fluctuation/progression. Guys like Newjak are doing just that. I am enjoying my discussion with him. If you had read the OP or my other posts properly, or you would have seen that.
The fact that you are still posting what you are posting again shows that you did not read anything I said in the other threads or this one, and instead just did your normal dumb ranting you are so well known for. You for some reason think this thread is about a fight, when there is no FIGHT in the OP at all. And in the thread you started all your crap I was also comparing physical durability and physical strength in my posts, just like in this thread, not competency in a fist fight. But as I said, you clearly DO NOT read what I write properly before replying to me. Go back to trolling your own Cap VS Ozy & Bucky thread. I am done replying to you because you are just wasting my time right now when I could be having more worthwhile discussions with others.
here you are saying you're not making any claims about whether FA Cap vs. Ozy or Cap vs. Ozy are the same thing
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
You literally said it was in a different thread. That's a lie. LOL at you using fact.http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=611757&pagenumber=3
You said that because he survived that long he must have killed a bunch of them. By that logic, so did Kitty, Xavier, Colossus, Magneto, Ice Man, Warpath, Sunspot and Blink. In which case the Sentinels would not have been a threat at all.
Where did I post in this thread about versions of Cap? You might be discussing TFA Cap vs Ozy compared to Cap vs Ozy with others, but I am not. I am questioning your credibility as a poster when it comes to these things, because you want your personal opinions to be accepted as fact, as seen in other threads. You wanted the Cap vs Ultron fight to be mostly ignored because YOU feel it was PIS. You want to claim Logan beat future sentinels, because YOU feel he must have done so, off screen. You aren't even on topic here, because you have hardly addressed your own OP, despite multiple posts. I honestly think you just made this topic purely for the sake of stirring up needless crap.
Yet here you are.. stating your opinion on the matter. Caught again
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Look at the OP date. Besides, Cap is still Cap. He received the super soldier serum during the first film and never received any other amps that we know of. All we know is that he greatly expands his skill level and pushes his limits more, but we have no reason to believe that he somehow got more amped and those limits just expanded. Also, getting a lot more screen time as he appears in more films means more, and more versatile, feats. But ultimately still the same super soldier doing them. Can you prove Cap from TFA couldn't take those hits from Bucky like he did in TWS?
and again
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
So again you are back to ignoring parts of my post and misreading others? I specifically said in multiple posts that he DID increase in skill and learn about his abilities more. And you did not address the fact that he was amped to full potential in the very first film, so from a pure physical statistics standpoint, he has been the same throughout. The boxing analogy is dumb, because I NEVER ONCE SAID that Captain America has not increased in skill or gotten a better handle on his powers. In fact, that has been my whole argument. His progression in feats is the result of improving his skills and getting used to his abilities, without them gaining further enhancements like more SS serum. The Neo argument is also dumb, because the extra powers he gained as the one required extra training and experience to unlock/harness. The SS serum didn't teach Cap how to use his arms, legs etc. (he already has normal motor function), and it didn't create some hidden reservoir of superpower, like he is Gohan from Dragon Ball or something. It boosted him from scrawny wimp to the pinnacle of humanity in one go. But I have mentioned this before, which you seemingly ignored. My argument has been that Steve's physical statistics have not increased (because he has been peak from the get go), simply explored, coupled with an increase in skill level. Seriously, do you skim read before replying?Except he never specifically excluded other feats. I see nowhere where it says "Feats from TFA only". What I see is a thread made when there was only one film for that specific incarnation of Cap out, but multiple movie versions of Cap around by that point already (including animated versions), so the OP mentioned the film to specify from which film universe he is. And that is how pretty much everyone else here sees it. You are the only one to stubbornly argue about it.
Anyway, I think you are literally arguing purely for the sake of argument, and I am not getting sucked into 5 pages of circular nonsense. Captain America still wins all three rounds, so this is a waste of time.
Which as we've seen, was the incorrect stance
Match 1 - Bench pressing contest
Match 2 - Durability contest
Match 3 - 100m race
They all tie in every round because they all have the exact same physical stats. The only difference will be if they actually fought each other, in which case Cap from AoU would have the slight advantage due to him having he most experience.
Originally posted by FrothByte
They all tie in every round because they all have the exact same physical stats. The only difference will be if they actually fought each other, in which case Cap from AoU would have the slight advantage due to him having he most experience.
I hate you sometimes (joke). You basically summed up in one post what I have been trying to say in several. 😆
Originally posted by FrothByte
They all tie in every round because they all have the exact same physical stats. The only difference will be if they actually fought each other, in which case Cap from AoU would have the slight advantage due to him having he most experience.
You'd think this would be common sense but here we are.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I hate you sometimes (joke). You basically summed up in one post what I have been trying to say in several. 😆
I don't even know how this thread ended up with 2 pages... and KT not even posting once.
I get that skill, knowledge and experience can be improved. Physical stats should be too... if you're not Cap. But considering Cap is already at his peak every single time then he's about as strong and as fast as he's ever going to be. Unsure why people seem to have trouble grasping this.
Originally posted by FrothByte
I don't even know how this thread ended up with 2 pages... and KT not even posting once.I get that skill, knowledge and experience can be improved. Physical stats should be too... if you're not Cap. But considering Cap is already at his peak every single time then he's about as strong and as fast as he's ever going to be. Unsure why people seem to have trouble grasping this.
KT posted, but purely in an attempt to discredit me and derail this thread. Only it backfired, because it not only proved that he is dishonest, but also proves what I have been saying all along about him not reading my posts, because in neither of the two posts he misquoted did I say anything about his Cap VS Ozy scenarios either. I was always commenting on Cap VS Marv thread and its OP specifically, which anyone who read the posts properly could see.
And yeah, that is pretty much my view exactly. Cap has most definitely become more and more formidable as the films have progressed, but that, as you said, is down to expanding his knowledge, skill set and experience. Training to become stronger, faster etc. would work if he was a regular guy who had to work to build up to that level, but the SS serum pushed him the absolute max potential possible and keeps him there. As I mentioned, part of Thor's powerset is his insane durability, which no one ever questions even if he doesn't always tank massive hit after massive hit, but there seems to be this idea that Cap's stats just fluctuate, even though they are his own powerset, as granted by the SS.
It is understandable though. We see Cap gain his powers and then we see how he goes from noob hero to leader of the Avengers. So it is easy to mix up a progression in skill with a progression in power. Where as Thor was already over a 1000 years old and a combat veteran, fully in control of his abilities, by the first time we even see him.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
There were clear straights where he was not picking up any distance on Rogers. There was also an instance where Steve accidentally misjudged his own momentum and crashed through a shop window, costing him time. A few other good moments involved jumping from moving car to moving car to get on top of the getaway vehicle, and when the car crashed and tumbled at fairly high speed, he got tossed like a ragdoll but recovered through the air enough to come up in a roll. He also gets shot in the side, but other than showing mild discomfort, keeps on going, and then proceeds to do the whole submarine chase down and water toss thing. And at the end, as per normal, he isn't even out of breath. I still think that is as good a showing as he has had, considering he did that all after literally just being transformed into a super soldier, and not having any kind of time to adapt.Iron Man is still a lot stronger than Cap now. For everything Ultron also threw at him in their first fight, it barely did more than scratch the paint on Tony's armour. On the other side, every hit Tony made did visible damage to Ultron. Ultron was not in Tony's league in that fight, but he was enough of a distraction to pull him away from the main conflict so that SW could do her thing on the team.
Also, why are you seemingly comparing everything to TFA Cap specifically here? Not saying you are, but it seems like you are. This is an evaluation across the board. Because as seen by StiltmanFTW's posts, there are those that believe that TWS is the superior version. Like I have mentioned before, this thread is more about his actual powerset and how it may or may not have somehow amped/fluctuated over time, based on people's opinions.
Yes and as I said, I would agree 100% with you that Cap would fare worse against Ultron based purely on his TFA feats, but that is because he doesn't display the same level of skill and combat effectiveness in the TFA that he develops. Because as I have mentioned before, he does develop his skill level and gets more used to his abilities. A good example is the chase with the car in TFA actually. He totally misjudged his own speed and went crashing right through a shop window, landing on his face. A veteran Cap, with more time to adjust to the enhancements would of course not be so clumsy. Guess what it comes down to is that I believe he had the potential to do any of the pure physical feats, like running, lifting, taking hits etc. that he does in the films. But that does not mean I think he could duplicate any feat from any film at any time. Certain things which actually also require a level of skill, like some of his parkour moves or his fighting style, would have had to have developed over time, though for Steve it probably went a hell of a lot quicker than normal.
Or if looking at it from another point of view, if in a hypothetical situation you knew how skilled and effective Steve is by the end of AoU, but you only had one film's pure feats of strength, speed etc. to go on (and it might not even be AoU) would you find anything he accomplished in the other films out of the ordinary if you watched them, knowing he had the skill and training to go along with the SS serum? Like if you only saw him in Avengers, but without seeing it beforehand, you knew he developed gymnastic skills that would put a gold medalist to shame, would the Jet kill he did in TWS raise your eyebrows? Hopefully that question makes sense. 😆
He was never shot in the car scene. He held his side after falling off the car after it rolled. It's actually a poor durability feat considering what he tanks in the other movies. He was running incredibly fast but most of the chase takes place in traffic so the car can not go it's full speed. Like I said it is a good feat for Cap but I wouldn't say it is his best speed feat. Not better then continuously lapping Falcon at the sprinting speed he was going.
I said Ultron was close to Tony. Enough to give the upgraded Tony a fight that he couldn't take lightly. It was a good power gauge for what Ultron could do.
As to me using TFA Cap a lot. I'm mentioning him a lot because he is the baseline Cap in series. Every movie that comes from that is a progression of that Cap.
And if all you trying to say is that all Cap's from all movies are the same. I agree they are. If all you are trying to say is that they are the same character from the same universe and that their powers haven't canonically been amped in story I also agree.
That is not what I am talking about though or what I thought this thread was about. I thought you were asking how each movie versions single feats compare to others and if there has been feat progressions in the movies, which there has been.
Like I've said multiple times I do not think Cap power's are getting stronger in terms of him being amped from movie to movie. At least in story they are the same person. Still you can not ignore that there is some power creep going on as Cap continuously gets better power feats as the movies go on.
For instance yes Cap skill's have improved during the movies but if you asked me if TFA Cap with increased skill level could physically go toe to toe with Ultron in AoU. and I could only use TFA Cap power feats in the debate I would say he would get stomped even with a skill increase.
So let me try to simplify my response a bit. If you are just arguing that they are the same character yes they are. They should all have the same physical abilities as they are all the same character. But if you want to ask me if Cap has seen power creep as the movies have gone on I think there is a progression that has been made throughout the movies.
For instance if you created a scenario where AoU Cap fights TFA Cap and they can only use feats from their respective movies. I would AoU the win not just in skill but in the physical categories as well. I do admit TWS and AoU Cap are closer in feats but they both still would beat TFA Cap if they were limited to only using feats in the movie they appear in.
I'm hoping that makes the distinction of what I am saying vs what you are saying more clear?
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
KT posted, but purely in an attempt to discredit me and derail this thread. Only it backfired, because it not only proved that he is dishonest, but also proves what I have been saying all along about him not reading my posts, because in neither of the two posts he misquoted did I say anything about his Cap VS Ozy scenarios either. I was always commenting on Cap VS Marv thread and its OP specifically, which anyone who read the posts properly could see.And yeah, that is pretty much my view exactly. Cap has most definitely become more and more formidable as the films have progressed, but that, as you said, is down to expanding his knowledge, skill set and experience. Training to become stronger, faster etc. would work if he was a regular guy who had to work to build up to that level, but the SS serum pushed him the absolute max potential possible and keeps him there. As I mentioned, part of Thor's powerset is his insane durability, which no one ever questions even if he doesn't always tank massive hit after massive hit, but there seems to be this idea that Cap's stats just fluctuate, even though they are his own powerset, as granted by the SS.
It is understandable though. We see Cap gain his powers and then we see how he goes from noob hero to leader of the Avengers. So it is easy to mix up a progression in skill with a progression in power. Where as Thor was already over a 1000 years old and a combat veteran, fully in control of his abilities, by the first time we even see him.
Blatantly lying again eh? It's very easy to discredit you using your own words. You said you didn't commit on something, when in fact, you CLEARLY did. You said you expressed no opinion on the matter, when in fact you did. You make this too easy Vault, next time pick a fight you can actually win. Just like the last debate we got into.
Originally posted by FrothByte
I don't even know how this thread ended up with 2 pages... and KT not even posting once.I get that skill, knowledge and experience can be improved. Physical stats should be too... if you're not Cap. But considering Cap is already at his peak every single time then he's about as strong and as fast as he's ever going to be. Unsure why people seem to have trouble grasping this.
This is totally and completely false and tells me what I already know. Both you and vault have no idea about things such as leverage, form and knowledge. EACH one of those things can allow Cap to list more than his other versions could lift. Having such knowledge of things to a higher degree and knows your abilities to a higher degree means in some circumstances where applicable, you would lift more than you could before. To even not see that as a distinct and real possibility, tells me all I need to know about your athletic and combat sport experience.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Blatantly lying again eh? It's very easy to discredit you using your own words. You said you didn't commit on something, when in fact, you CLEARLY did. You said you expressed no opinion on the matter, when in fact you did. You make this too easy Vault, next time pick a fight you can actually win. Just like the last debate we got into.
So still lying about what claims I made where? I specifically said I made no claims in the one thread. Then you try to call me a liar by quoting a different thread and acting like it is the same. And even then, I made no claims about your hypothetical scenario in any of the posts you quoted. I addressed Cap Vs Marv specifically each time, and the context of that specific OP. Keep trolling and trying to derail this thread with your lies and I will report you for it.