Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Use the same logic as you would for She Hulk and Lobos' Looney Tunes powers, because that's what you're essentially saying. Plot driven powers = She Hulk ripping pages up and Animal Man shrinking comic panels.
You didn't understand, it's not only about the plot but the role of Superman. Neither Surfer, nor Thor nor Hulk nor anyone else has Supermans status, as shown by Morrison.
Originally posted by carver9
Don't think anyone said Surfer beats Superman 10/10.
Originally posted by Philosophía
let's simplify this: how many writers would have him be a good match against darkseid? Do you think more than 2 or 3 out of dozens wouldn't?Geoff johns currently has anti monitor and darkseid as peers. Do you think it's a coincidence superman is on apokolips throughout the story, away from them?
Remember how the same geoff had young superman as the go to guy for fighting him in the early jla?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Darkseid could only beat Superman with BFR.Aquaman never stabbed DS; that's fan art.
IOW, carver, you're the worst person to talk about n52 showings. Remember when you were adamant Cyborg never used his white noise cannon in the first JL issues?
I don't remember that.
Originally posted by carver9
I don't remember that.
DS and Aquaman:
Originally posted by carver9
Darkseid was stabbed in the eyes by it. That's different than stabbing someone in let's say, the chest.
Originally posted by -Pr-
if you'd read the comic, you'd know that aquaman stabbed him in the chest too. or even, you know, looked at my sig...
Originally posted by carver9
You changed your Sig to make it look like that happened. Good job Pr.
Cyborg and the white noise cannon:
Originally posted by carver9
You know debating doesn't work like that. Spiderman has endured hits from top tiers as well.I agree, if Vic starts off with an attack like that, it would probably end the fight. Glad CIS is on and wasn't that parademon showing non canon to the real Vic?
Originally posted by carver9
What showing are you talking about with the Parademon because if it's the one I think you are talking about, it isn't canon to the real Vic.
I think Surfer is more powerful on the up and up, but he usually fights like a retard most of the time so theres that. Thor should be able to win sometimes due to the hammer, but I wouldnt give him a majority. Physically, it isnt a contest, Supes hands down, but the other two are way more versatile.
Bottom line-
Surfer - Yes
Thor - No
And before people yell that Thor has beaten Surfer more times than not, I already said Surfer is portrayed as retarded a lot of times.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Just to answer this question:From Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_New_52_imprint_publications):
JL 1-40
Action Comics 1-40
Superman/WW 1-17
Superman 1-40
Superman Unchaine 1-9That's....146. I've obviously missed annuals etc out, plus post-Convergence, so let's say 160 comics. Add in his guest appearances, so let's say 170 comics.
Of those 170, he's not going to be doing feats in every single issue - a lot of them will be him showing up, then flying off. Neither will every issue feature a fight scene, or have Superman at full power (him being depowered, for example, or just learning to use his powers etc.).
For that reason, I would say...he has 70 fights/feats (so less than half of his comics involve him fighting or being measured, just him standing around talking or some crap.
Go from there, I guess.
If we take abhi's 8 very high end feats at face value and calculate the ratio of high showings vs. comic appearances it would be 4.7 high showings per every 100 comics appearances.
Surfer in the past two years has done stuff like:
- Power the Impericon previously powered by an Eternity level being's heart
- Moon Surfing into Galactus
- Making a transwarp tunnel for 3 billion ships to jump to another part of the universe
- Outracing multiversal destruction
- Resisting Galactus depowering him
- Purifying a planets air and all 6 billion inhabitants body systems
- Absorb and dissipate a massive cosmic storm about to destroy a planet
If we were to calculate an estimate that's a rate of 26.6 per 100 comics, hell even if we cut it in half it'd be 13 per 100 comics or even a quarter it'd be 6.5 per 100 comics.
This is why I used the analogy for homicide rate in Canada vs. Belize.
Originally posted by carver9
Don't get it. Anyways, what's your thoughts on the topic.?
Still don't get it?
My point was, even when it was fresh in everyone's minds, you still misrepresented the Darkseid fight. Then tried to pass one of the key moments of Cyborg off in the same story arc as non-canon.
IOW, you obviously hadn't read the comic. So your thoughts on Darkseid - and by extension, Superman - should be null and void, as you haven't read the comics.
As for this thread, see my posts on Animal Man/She-Hulk/Lobo, IF Kal-Qaeda wish to suddenly have Superman as some abstract story concept.
Did THEIR feats occur, in canon comics, without power-ups? Yes. Do we use them? No.
Originally posted by CosmicComet
There is no such thing as a 'herald tier'.That's not a canon terminology for either company. It's a rough, board ranking term used to guide match making.
There has been no joint-consortium held by DC and Marvel that came to the agreement that such and such should be within the same tiers and thus should be roughly comparable.
It's board members that looked at various feats and came to an understanding that x,y,z seem to be capable of similar things 'on average' and lump them together in a ranking.
Unfortunately, that same 'understanding' is what is used as a yolk to try to keep things competitive. But that is purely subjective, not objective.
Since its impossible to ask that an average be found for every character, as that would require an inordinate amount of time that no one has (and no is without bias), to deny that their is an inequality when there are situations that X's top feats from X company are better than Y's top feats from Y company, even by leaps and bounds is arguing based on feelings, not on facts.
If its not an objective reasoning, its faulty.
Superman's only confirmed designation within his company is that he is etched in stone, as the Ultimate Hero. Bar none. Period. That means he can do anything when it calls for it because he has no set limitation.
Marvel on the other hand, has no such designation for any of their heroes. They don't operate that way. They have no ultimate hero. Thor (for example) would definitely not fit that placement either, because Marvel has made it very clear that he's not at that level of importance. He's a derived character from an old mythology and if he was gone from Marvel forever, they would not lose their identity. They would simply lose a B+ player who could be replaced with someone else (just for comparison, Iron Man and Spidey are A+ players in Marvel), and as of now, he *has* been replaced; by Jane Foster, who upon such a short time as the wielder of Mjolnir, has with such casual matter-of-factness, been designated by Marvel to be superior to Thor (by Thor's own words as well, she is more adept with Mjolnir than he ever was.) That's not an ultimate hero, if you can easily designate a replacement as better than he was, and thus lower the prestige of his decades long legacy.
And thus, Thor's top feats are fewer and of lesser magnitude than Superman's. The excuse that Superman is DC's top guy is exactly why Thor cannot be placed in the same league as him.
To say he is, and deny Superman's far more numerous showings and far superior showings, is simply an appeal to emotion fallacy.
Characterized by statements of the ilk of; "It doesn't feel right to say Thor is so much lower to Superman despite feats that would say so, so I'll ignore those and say they are comparable and it would be a good fight".
That's what Cely and others pack into their arguments. Bunch of empty platitudes and what not. There are no arguments presented to prop Thor(or whoever else of that ilk) up to the levels that Superman shows, so the only method is to try to undercut Superman down.
Whereas if you take a more objective approach and look at the absolute top feats for both, and context and all that, it becomes obvious who the winner is.
Superman and Thor have nothing to do with each other. Because in the end, they are from entirely different companies, and thus have no rule tethering them to be comparable (e.g. The way Thor and Surfer might have that unwritten rule for them by Marvel). It's certain board members that would like to keep them as such. It's a matter of letting feelings for a character get in the way of objective reasoning.
Now, I can almost understand that to an extant, as Marvel and DC have such a long history together that you almost feel like you have to come to that kind of mindset (E.g. that DC's top tiers are comparable to Marvel's top tiers or their street levelers are comparable to each other etc.), but in the end they are unrelated companies who cannot make direct references to each other in their comics without law suits.
So just replace Superman and Thor (or Hulk, or whoever else), with characters from another medium. Let's say we have anime character X from X company. And anime character Y from Y company.
X company and Y company have absolutely nothing to do with each other, and have no history at all. These companies are however, similar in their writing style, their art style, and the scope of stories they display, thus they reach a similar audience.
X character and Y character seem to be comparable, by the bulk of their showings. At their best showings however, they are not comparable at all.
And that's because X is the ultimate hero of X company and thus has superior number of total showings and better and more numerous top showings, than character Y from Y company. (Again; Company X and Company Y write stories of similar scope/scale as a reminder).
Would we deny X's showings over Y, simply because it feels like they should be comparable to you? Of course not. And for the most part, you don't see that happening with other characters in other mediums.
But when it comes to comics, particularly DC/Marvel cross-over topics, 'feelings' like that muddy discussions.
If Supes' top feats are beyond Marvel's designated heavy hitting heroes, then its as simple as that. No need to make it complicated.
Originally posted by One-Punch
Damn 170 appearances? That's more than I thought. Someone like Surfer for example only has like 30 canon appearances in the past 2 years, and that's including books where he appears a few panels or just talks. I'm not shocked that Superman would have more total high showings than him.If we take abhi's 8 very high end feats at face value and calculate the ratio of high showings vs. comic appearances it would be [b]4.7 high showings per every 100 comics appearances.
Surfer in the past two years has done stuff like:
- Power the Impericon previously powered by an Eternity level being's heart
- Moon Surfing into Galactus
- Making a transwarp tunnel for 3 billion ships to jump to another part of the universe
- Outracing multiversal destruction
- Resisting Galactus depowering him
- Purifying a planets air and all 6 billion inhabitants body systems
- Absorb and dissipate a massive cosmic storm about to destroy a planetIf we were to calculate an estimate that's a rate of 26.6 per 100 comics, hell even if we cut it in half it'd be 13 per 100 comics or even a quarter it'd be 6.5 per 100 comics.
This is why I used the analogy for homicide rate in Canada vs. Belize. [/B]
Originally posted by One-Punch
Damn 170 appearances? That's more than I thought. Someone like Surfer for example only has like 30 canon appearances in the past 2 years, and that's including books where he appears a few panels or just talks. I'm not shocked that Superman would have more total high showings than him.If we take abhi's 8 very high end feats at face value and calculate the ratio of high showings vs. comic appearances it would be [b]4.7 high showings per every 100 comics appearances.
Surfer in the past two years has done stuff like:
- Power the Impericon previously powered by an Eternity level being's heart
- Moon Surfing into Galactus
- Making a transwarp tunnel for 3 billion ships to jump to another part of the universe
- Outracing multiversal destruction
- Resisting Galactus depowering him
- Purifying a planets air and all 6 billion inhabitants body systems
- Absorb and dissipate a massive cosmic storm about to destroy a planetIf we were to calculate an estimate that's a rate of 26.6 per 100 comics, hell even if we cut it in half it'd be 13 per 100 comics or even a quarter it'd be 6.5 per 100 comics.
This is why I used the analogy for homicide rate in Canada vs. Belize. [/B]
More like Abhi's 8 high showings out of 70 relevant 'activity' comics, so ~10%. I guess you may have to lump some of the issues together - for example, the Darkseid fight spanned multiple issues.
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Does this post capture the overall feeling of Superman fans? If that's the case should he be bumped up beyond the herald tier for battleboard purposes?
If so, then I argue that I should be allowed to use She-Hulk's 4th wall battle feats, and Animal Man's. Lobo's, too. SBP, it goes without saying, etc etc.
Originally posted by carver9
Yes, post earlier quotes where I gave Surfer 10/10 against Superman.
Originally posted by carver9
I dont understand, if you all think that superman can give surfer a fight, why would wonderwoman give surfer a fight.Wonderwoman is a thousand time better fighter then superman, just as fast as superman, just as strong as superman, dont have any of his weakness, if at all any weakness.
The only argument that you all are putting up in the superman vs surfer thread is superman strength, whereas wonderwoman has proven to be just as strong.
I think surfer wins this 10/10 and I also think that surfer can beat superman 10/10 but I think that wonderwoman would fair better then supes due to the fact that surfer dont have a weakness to exploit but he has tons to use against clark.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Still don't get it?My point was, even when it was fresh in everyone's minds, you still misrepresented the Darkseid fight. Then tried to pass one of the key moments of Cyborg off in the same story arc as non-canon.
IOW, you obviously hadn't read the comic. So your thoughts on Darkseid - and by extension, Superman - should be null and void, as you haven't read the comics.
As for this thread, see my posts on Animal Man/She-Hulk/Lobo, IF Kal-Qaeda wish to suddenly have Superman as some abstract story concept.
Did THEIR feats occur, in canon comics, without power-ups? Yes. Do we use them? No.
But I did read the story though because I've posted scenes directly from the comic on numerous of occasions. I even posted my comic downloads showing that I own majority of Superman and JLA comics. Doesn't matter. I stick by what I said.
I agree with you. Going by what the Superman fans are using as Superman being above Elite tier, I can easily make a case for Hulk being the most powerful being that has ever walked the planet.
Originally posted by One-Punch
Damn 170 appearances? That's more than I thought. Someone like Surfer for example only has like 30 canon appearances in the past 2 years, and that's including books where he appears a few panels or just talks. I'm not shocked that Superman would have more total high showings than him.If we take abhi's 8 very high end feats at face value and calculate the ratio of high showings vs. comic appearances it would be [b]4.7 high showings per every 100 comics appearances.
Surfer in the past two years has done stuff like:
- Power the Impericon previously powered by an Eternity level being's heart
- Moon Surfing into Galactus
- Making a transwarp tunnel for 3 billion ships to jump to another part of the universe
- Outracing multiversal destruction
- Resisting Galactus depowering him
- Purifying a planets air and all 6 billion inhabitants body systems
- Absorb and dissipate a massive cosmic storm about to destroy a planetIf we were to calculate an estimate that's a rate of 26.6 per 100 comics, hell even if we cut it in half it'd be 13 per 100 comics or even a quarter it'd be 6.5 per 100 comics.
This is why I used the analogy for homicide rate in Canada vs. Belize. [/B]
And what would transporting a gazillion ships or out running through time is supposed to mean in terms of power?
Or fooling Galactus?
Did he beat any Herald level being? Or a being who stomps other heralds?
That's why I posted half space cheese and half fights against characters.
And Superman didn't appear in 170 comics in two years. Justice League is since 2011. He didn't appear in it between Forever Evil.