master Zao vs Yoda, philosophical discussion only

Originally posted by redpill
his wisdom got the jedi destroyed

zao smartly left it saying it is not true of jedi ideals

zao wins

I'm not sure to take you seriously on this one or not? Yoda was very wise being regarded as the wisest Jedi of all, that wisdom also got him to be the head of all the Jedi and no doubt expanded upon reaching said position, so I'm not seeing how Zao wins this based off what you said. I'm sticking with Yoda who is the Avatar of Light. Unless you take Luke skywalker as that position.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I'm not sure to take you seriously on this one or not? Yoda was very wise being regarded as the wisest Jedi of all, that wisdom also got him to be the head of all the Jedi and no doubt expanded upon reaching said position, so I'm not seeing how Zao wins this based off what you said. I'm sticking with Yoda who is the Avatar of Light. Unless you take Luke skywalker as that position.

for such a "wise" being, yoda used his position to got the jedi involved in the cw something zao was personally opposed.

and the war destroyed the jedi from within see bariss and mace.

a truly wise jedi sage would be a pacifist as zao was

Originally posted by redpill
for such a "wise" being, yoda used his position to got the jedi involved in the cw something zao was personally opposed.

and the war destroyed the jedi from within see bariss and mace.

a truly wise jedi sage would be a pacifist as zao was

Originally posted by redpill
for such a "wise" being, yoda used his position to got the jedi involved in the cw something zao was personally opposed.

and the war destroyed the jedi from within see bariss and mace.

a truly wise jedi sage would be a pacifist as zao was

So you think Yoda wanted the Clone wars? Do you not understand who the Jedi served the republic, and the republic was at war so they had to become generals.

It was all a plan by Sidious who is a master manipulator.

I think fresh pretty much got this one.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
So you think Yoda wanted the Clone wars? Do you not understand who the Jedi served the republic, and the republic was at war so they had to become generals.

It was all a plan by Sidious who is a master manipulator.

I think fresh pretty much got this one.

Notice how quick everyone is to question Palpatine and multiple diplomats.

Love it when sometimes makes a vs thread to push their own biased agenda. 😂

On topic Yoda's age, superior Force mastery and position in the Order demonstrates superior wisdom to Zao. That said Yoda made the wrong decision to get involved in the Clone Wars, but one bad decision doesn't make Zao overall wiser.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No, a "truly wise jedi sage" would do his job, which is defend the Republic. Like it or not, it's the Jedi's duty to serve the Republic.

The Separatists were not some evil worshippers of the dark side, they were a legitimate political alliance with ideals that do not in any way conflict with the Jedi Code, but instead of adopting a neutral stance on the issue the Jedi sided with the Republic (who were just as corrupt and morally questionable) and led an army of slaves into a political conflict.

What they should of done is abstained from the war and adopted a neutral stance, then focused on rooting out the Sith elements in both factions, rather than allowing Palpatine to lead them by the nose at they did, and altogether getting involved in a political conflict they had no place in.

The Prequel Trilogy, TCW and the PT EU as a whole is littered with critiques of the Jedi's decision to join the war, it's literally the opinion of George Lucas himself that it was a mistake.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
The Jedi have no "Official" affiliation with the Republic, they just have the same goals.

Notice how quick everyone is to question Palpatine and multiple diplomats.

I believe they did. Why wouldn't they?

"Though much remains unknown, sometime during this period, the Jedi Order swore loyalty to the Republic." Not to mention the numerous cases in TOR where being a Knight is stressed as upholding and protecting the Republic. It's kind of their thing.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
This is at the crux of the issue however, Sidious exploited the fact that the Jedi had come to serve a corrupt state that transformed them from sages to mindless enforcers.

The Separatists were not some evil worshippers of the dark side, they were a legitimate political alliance with ideals that do not in any way conflict with the Jedi Code, but instead of adopting a neutral stance on the issue the Jedi sided with the Republic (who were just as corrupt and morally questionable) and led an army of slaves into a political conflict.

What they should of done is abstained from the war and adopted a neutral stance, then focused on rooting out the Sith elements in both factions, rather than allowing Palpatine to lead them by the nose at they did, and altogether getting involved in a political conflict they had no place in.

The Prequel Trilogy, TCW and the PT EU as a whole is littered with critiques of the Jedi's decision to join the war, it's literally the opinion of George Lucas himself that it was a mistake.

Right, you seem to be ignoring the fact however that the Separatists =/= Sith, Dooku is a Sith yes, but then again they only discovered that halfway through the Battle of Geonosis, and by that point they were already committed to a political conflict. Not only that, but said relevation coincided with the knowledge that the Republic had been infiltrated by a Sith Lord, something they decide to overlook.

So lets not pretend this is a black and white conflict between good and evil, it is not.

Next you talk about serving the Republic as if the Separatists were not made up almost exclusively of former Republic senators who wanted to put a stop to the corruption. Don't the Jedi have any loyalty to them, to the people they represent? And doesn't their oath to the Republic represent more than blind obedience? Doesn't it have something more to do with, I don't know, the ideals being moved further and further away from? Like Obi-Wan says his allegiance is to democracy first and foremost, something ironically the Separatists demonstrated superior ability in, and certainly practiced. Honestly you are beginning to sound like Anakin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPCXHnH23Cc&t=0m34s

Who even a child could see speaks out of ignorance and bigotry.

This isn't like any conflict the Jedi have been involved in before, this is a schism, a practical civil war were both sides have claim to "right".

Finally you talk of apathy, which is doubly ironic as that is not only exactly the path they took, by going along with the whole conflict and largely ignoring and so failing to act on the Sith threat until it was far too late, but it's the opposite of what I suggested. Being that by extracting themselves from the politics, the Jedi Order could actively resolve the real issues. You know like:
[list=1][*]Ending the war which they knew was aiding the Sith/dark side, something Heroes on Both Sides demonstrates could have easily been accomplished.

[*]Hunting down the Sith and putting a stop to the Sith, which when they finally get off their asses and attempt to results in them cornering and almost capturing Darth Sidious in pretty short order.[/list=1]If they have focused on these two objectives, they could have stopped the Grand Plan in its tracks, rather than apathetically allowing themselves to play the parts the Sith intended, despite being in possession of so many of the facts.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Right, you seem to be ignoring the fact however that the Separatists =/= Sith, Dooku is a Sith yes, but then again they only discovered that halfway through the Battle of Geonosis, and by that point they were already committed to a political conflict. Not only that, but said relevation coincided with the knowledge that the Republic had been infiltrated by a Sith Lord, something they decide to overlook.

So lets not pretend this is a black and white conflict between good and evil, it is not.

Next you talk about serving the Republic as if the Separatists were not made up almost exclusively of former Republic senators who wanted to put a stop to the corruption. Don't the Jedi have any loyalty to them, to the people they represent? And doesn't their oath to the Republic represent more than blind obedience? Doesn't it have something more to do with, I don't know, the ideals being moved further and further away from? Like Obi-Wan says his allegiance is to democracy first and foremost, something ironically the Separatists demonstrated superior ability in, and certainly practiced. Honestly you are beginning to sound like Anakin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPCXHnH23Cc&t=0m34s

Who even a child could see speaks out of ignorance and bigotry.

This isn't like any conflict the Jedi have been involved in before, this is a schism, a practical civil war were both sides have claim to "right".

Finally you talk of apathy, which is doubly ironic as that is not only exactly the path they took, by going along with the whole conflict and largely ignoring and so failing to act on the Sith threat until it was far too late, but it's the opposite of what I suggested. Being that by extracting themselves from the politics, the Jedi Order could actively resolve the real issues. You know like:
[list=1][*]Ending the war which they knew was aiding the Sith/dark side, something Heroes on Both Sides demonstrates could have easily been accomplished.

[*]Hunting down the Sith and putting a stop to the Sith, which when they finally get off their asses and attempt to results in them cornering and almost capturing Darth Sidious in pretty short order.[/list=1]

If they have focused on these two objectives, they could have stopped the Grand Plan in its tracks, rather than apathetically allowing themselves to play the parts the Sith intended, despite being in possession of so many of the facts.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Too bad Sidious revealed his involvement with them in TPM then, isn't it.

Yeah, it's a black and white conflict between stupid and more stupid.

No, not really. They are duty bound to the Republic where as Obi-Wan himself serves "democracy," which while you can argue is not how the Republic works semantics wise, on the surface, that was kind of the point. Hence it being called "the Galactic Republic," and not the "Galactic Totalitarian State that Republics are in reality." By the way, he said, "My allegiance is to the Republic. To democracy!." Nice edit, tho.

How exactly do you know that?

You act as if this is some kind of secret. It wasn't, the Jedi just chose to ignorant it and do nothing.

How exactly would the Jedi even come to this conclusion?

Finally, why should the Jedi just decide to break their vows because the government is corrupt when the point to a "Republic" is just to change who you put in power, at least on a technical level? Also, yeah it's a civil war where both sides think they're right. Kind of like every situation in every civil war, like literally every one, ever.

You mean like trying to capture Dooku, which they do several times? Trying to find the Sith Lord behind the Separatists, which they've been doing since the Phantom Menace? Or by not just letting the galaxy fall to the Sith? In case you didn't notice, the Clone Wars didn't actually begin until AFTER Geonosis.

It's almost like they didn't know who Sidious was.
It's almost like they may have even thought he was Dooku.
It's almost like they couldn't find him because he was hiding and interfering with their ability to perceive the future and himself.

Fact is, though some effort was made to find the Sith, the Clone Wars not only distracted them from the real conflict, by their involvement made the dark side shroud stronger, just as Sidious intended. If they had not gotten involved in the war, their effectiveness would have increased and their vision less clouded.

Right, I'm sure the Republic will be fine, because not only was not Dooku behind an army, not only did the Republic not care about having leadership for theirs, and not only did the Jedi really not have to do anything, the Jedi really weren't even trying to find the Sith. The things you know.

Thanks for saving me the time of finding an appropriate gif. 👆

Originally posted by redpill
yoda = george bush got us into iraq war
zao = obama vote against iraq war

Originally posted by Aurbere
I feel like this is a weird joke. Not sure how anyone can argue Zao is wiser than Yoda.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And?

Wut? Jedi have been through war constantly. Sure, sometimes they fall, but ignoring your problems doesn't solve them. The Jedi needed to defend the Republic. The reason they died is because Sidious outplayed them in a Catch 22, not because they went to war.

No, a "truly wise jedi sage" would do his job, which is defend the Republic. Like it or not, it's the Jedi's duty to serve the Republic. Even if it was not, sitting by would give the Sith the galaxy, and unlike with how events turned out, it would have been through negligence. Zao was an idiot.

no, a "truly wise jedi sage" is to serve the light side of the Force as Zao has done. not be generals in an manufactured war.

Yoda doesn't get that. Zao does.

Zao is wiser than Yoda

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Love it when sometimes makes a vs thread to push their own biased agenda. 😂

On topic Yoda's age, superior Force mastery and position in the Order demonstrates superior wisdom to Zao. That said Yoda made the wrong decision to get involved in the Clone Wars, but one bad decision doesn't make Zao overall wiser.

by that accounting Anakin is the wisest of them all 🙄

Because Anakin is older, possesses superior Force mastery and has a higher position in the Jedi Order than Yoda... 😬

Originally posted by redpill
no, a "truly wise jedi sage" is to serve the light side of the Force as Zao has done. not be generals in an manufactured war.

Yoda doesn't get that. Zao does.

Zao is wiser than Yoda

Windu: Did your journey give you insight on how to win the war?

Yoda: No longer certain that one ever does win a war I am. For in fighting the battles, the bloodshed already lost we have. Yet, open to us, a path remains that unknown to the Sith is. Through this path, victory we may yet find. Not victory in the Clone Wars but victory for all time.

Clearly he gets it very well.

Originally posted by redpill
where was Yoda when order 66 came done vs Zao?

Yoda was attempting to work against the Sith, unlike Zao who was apparently perfectly content in handing the Sith the galaxy on a silver platter. Like it or not, allowing the dark side to prevail is not in service to the light.

Also, Yoda is factually wiser than Zao.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because Anakin is older, possesses superior Force mastery and has a higher position in the Jedi Order than Yoda... 😬Have you considered that Yoda might have learned from his mistakes? He did:

Windu: Did your journey give you insight on how to win the war?

Yoda: No longer certain that one ever does win a war I am. For in fighting the battles, the bloodshed already lost we have. Yet, open to us, a path remains that unknown to the Sith is. Through this path, victory we may yet find. Not victory in the Clone Wars but victory for all time.

Clearly he gets it very well.

it is Zao superior wisdom that prevented Zao from making Yoda's mistakes to begin with.