Darth Vader vs Darth Plagueis

Started by ILS11 pages

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Quote for him not needing the transpirator mask, please.
He gains the ability to heal his own body after managing to revive Venamis for the first time. After a few months all of his scars disappeared, his skin appeared more youthful and he began breathing easier. His damaged tissue from the attack mended itself; his entire body was rejuvenating itself to the point, in time, he would cease to age at all. Also, Plagueis contacts every living and otherwise Forceful being or entity in existence simultaneously, through the Force, and informs them of his existence, which frankly shits on Vader's power feats, and that's if discovering internal and external immortality, the ability to create life, and forcing the Force - a universal energy field - into creating a Chosen One through meditating against it, hadn't already. (Yes, Sidious helped, but he was pre-prime and even accounting for him, Vader's outclassed).

That's after a few months of internalizing Midichlorian manipulation. Fast forward 8 years later.. 8 years to continue healing. He discovers that he has increased the number of midichlorians in his body. So take everything I've said already and apply it to a guy with even more midichlorians to channel his power through.

Then cut to Sidious' assassination of Plagueis. He points out, rightfully so, that Plagueis even after being blasted by a full-power Force storm from Sidious would be able to heal the damage done to his lungs, heart and brain.

But having gained the power to keep another alive hadn't been enough for him. And so after Sidious had returned to Coruscant, he had devoted himself to internalizing that ability, by manipulating the midichlorians that animated him. For several months he made no progress, but ultimately he began to perceive a measured change. The scars that had grown over his wounds had abruptly begun to soften and fade, and he had begun to breathe more freely than he had in twenty years. He began to sense that not only were his damaged tissues healing, but his entire body was rejuvinating itself. Beneath the transpirator, areas of his skin were smooth and youthful, and he knew that eventually he would cease to age altogether.

Drunk on newfound power, then, he had attempted an even more unthinkable act: to bring into being a creation of his own. Not merely the impregnation of some hapless, mindless creature, but the birth of a Forceful being. The ability to dominate death had been a step in the right direction, but it wasn't equivalent to pure creation. And so he had stretched out-indeed, as if invisible, transubstantiated-to inform every being of his existence, and impact all of them: Muunoid or insectoid, secure or dispossessed, free or enslaved. A warrior waving a banner in triumph on a battlefield. A ghost infiltrating a dream.

But ultimately to no end.

The Force grew silent, as if in flight from him, and many of the animals in his laboratory succumbed to horrifying diseases.

Regardless, eight long years later, Plagueis remained convinced that he was on the verge of absolute success. The evidence was in his own increased midichlorian count; and in the power he sensed in Sidious when he had finally returned to Sojourn.
[...]
Sidious peered at Plagueis through the Force. "Oh, yes, by all means gather your midichlorians, Plagueis." He held his thumb and forefinger close together. "Try to keep yourself alive while I choke the life out of you."

Plagueis gulped for air and lifted an arm toward him.

"There's the rub, you see," Sidious said in a philosophical tone. "All the ones you experimented on, killed, and brought back to life... They were little more than toys. Now, though, you get to experience it from their side, and look what you discover: in a body that is being denied air, in which even the Force is failing, your own midichlorians can't accomplish what you're asking of them."

Hatred stained Sidious's eyes.

"I could save you, of course. Return you from the brink, as you did Venamis. I could retask your body to repair the damage already done to your lungs, your hearts, your aged brain. But I'll do no such thing. The idea here is not to drag you back at the last moment, but to bring you to death's door and shove you through to the other side."

I think it's pretty clear, personally, that Plagueis is not only better than Vader, but doesn't really need a fugging transpirator mask. He likely kept it on for the sake of keeping up appearances since - without being an immortal - you don't just suffer absurd amounts of organ damage and then take off your life support less than a decade later.

Did Luceno not also say he was uncertain who would win in a legitimate fight between Plagueis & TPM Palpatine?

Apparently he said he thought Plagueis wins, but I'm unsure where the quote comes from.

That said? TCSWE confirms Sidious only gained the ability - regardless of circumstances, the simple possibility of doing so - to kill Plagueis by TPM (meaning he could have meticulously planned to assassinate a fully-trusting Plagueis and he'd still have lost). He even tried using a nuke against him prior to that point in Maul: Lockdown.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
TPM Sidious. Now we are up against ROTS Sidious. He got a big boost in power. Learn your Star Wars Quan.
Prove he had a huge surge in power.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Quan I'm going to end this khan debate here. Khan can't handle Vader or Sidious. You take Canon only, I believe those new comic books we have seen are canon now. We see Vader tear down ships, we explicitly see him move in blurs to deflect blaster bolts. Now imagine that and put a being of much greater power palpatine. Imagine what he could do just based off that. Now it's your choice on if you wanna use ROTJ Sidious or ROTS Sidious. I don't care which. Hell you could even use TPM Sidious because it all comes down to same thing. Either Sidious will blitz Khan, ragdoll him, or fry his ass with lightning. I'm going to be nice and let you decide how Khan dies since you love him so much.

Don't bring up any old argument you use like, Sidious didn't kill Luke with lightning after exposure to it for long periods of time, he was trotting hi. For the majority of the time, or he was killed by a one handed cyborg, while being distracted torturing his biggest adversary. Another one you would bring up is Vader is slow. Look at those scans where we see Vader on the panel moving in blurs easily. Now all of this is just canon, you said canon only, never said just movies TCW and Rebels. Let go to rebels, don't use the "oh Ezra and Kanan force pushed Vader so Khan can easily shoot him with his gun" argument, because Khan doesn't have the force and Khan wouldn't even make it that far. Did you see what Vader did? He lifted an AT-AT with ease.

Vader has the force, Khan doesn't. All he has is his gun which based on feats Vader or Sidious can easily take away. Sidious is more powerful than Vader no has a wider array of powers that real extreme magnitudes. Khan shall die a slow and painful death by both. You lose. You always lose.

We don't see Vader react in time to quantify those feats. We also have already seen Khan take down ships in real time and can quantify the feats. Somehow when Vader does it in a vague comic where two people can't even come to an agreement on what occurred you think this is foolproof. Vader has always been portrayed as quick with a light saber with slower movements. We can see this in real time in the films and the rebels episodes. We have seen how slow tk is and the fact he has to concentrate to even use it leaving him vulnerable.

What Vader does in a comic is a moot point since we can quantify how long it took him to pick up Sidious and toss him down the shaft. It was slow as hell. Sidious has never deflected anything in real time with the sheer power and with the radius the phaser cannon covers.

You don't need to have the force to kill a force user. Order 66, Jango Fett, Cad Bane, etc. The force is just a tool like a gun or a jetpack when used in combat. It depends on skill level, feats, portrayals, and abilities.

Khan is portrayed on a much higher level than a guy who was utterly humiliated by Mace Windu in fair armed combat and begged for his life like a true weakling.

ah yeah, that reminds me, ill make the thread now quan

quan, will we be using star trek comic tie-ins to the film (i.e. the Khan series)?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
quan, will we be using star trek comic tie-ins to the film (i.e. the Khan series)?
No, as I've personally sought out trek at its heart to determine whether those comics are canon or not at Trek's motherboard. They aren't viewed as canon just the films and the series. Contradictions, orci going back and forth on his word in interviews, etc. cbs and paramount only really care about the tv series and the films.

Plus I've never liked arguing outside of certain mediums as we don't have any real time in comics and it muddies the waters. Sidious just from the films and live action series versus Khan from Into Darkness which is ultimately his only canon appearance anyway.

Ps. I said you didn't have to do this since your heart isn't in it. I need someone to bleed for Palpatine in be way of my Khan.

Well, I think it's mandatory for a die-hard Star Wars fan like me to support the greatest villain in cinematic history.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Well, I think it's mandatory for a die-hard Star Wars fan like me to support the greatest villain in cinematic history.
Palpatine is weak. Greatest fantasy villain is Voldemort and the greatest Sci Fi villain is Khan.

Do what must be done, Darth ant.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Greatest fantasy villain is Voldemort

infinite rofls

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
infinite rofls
A wizard who made other wizards with the same abilities shit their pants at the mere mention of his name.

Originally posted by quanchi112
the greatest Sci Fi villain is Khan.

lmao

Originally posted by Rebel95
lmao
He'd kick the shit out of any Star Wars film villain to date.

I could argue for either.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Did Luceno not also say he was uncertain who would win in a legitimate fight between Plagueis & TPM Palpatine?

Q: Do you feel that, had it come to a contest of lightsabers or Force powers, Sidious would have prevailed anyway?
A: If it had come to a duel, I think Plagueis may have found a way to undermine his apprentice

Imagine the reverberations in the Star Wars universe if Plagueis turns out to be Snoke.

Then we'd have another Sith in the Disney continuity who would shit on Khan

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Then we'd have another Sith in the Disney continuity who would shit on Khan

Don't you think that's a little blatantly antagonistic?