Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
😂Both comic and movie versions of Steve Rogers are low meta, actually. There is NO definition of "street leveler", actually - even Spider-Man or Wolverine get called that. So nothing to get butthurt about.
Anyway, even with Cap being a low meta, Plac is right - Stark is still several tiers above him.
In strength, yes. Do you mind telling me how exactly he's going to hit Cap and Bucky in close range?
Yeah, the drunken fight Iron Man has with Rhodey in IM 2. They were clobbering each other with heavy pieces of gym equipment, cracking the floors etc, and at one point Rhodey hits Tony so hard he crashes through a reinforced concrete ceiling/floor and into the ceiling above it hard enough to crater that too (and the suits were shown to be on par, strength-wise, as they were tussling). In comparison, Bucky's arm's best feats so far are ripping out a steering column and a car door, both things Tony could do easily. So based on feats we have so far, Iron Man is stronger.
This is a shitfaced Tony vs a total noob Rhodey, and this whole thing is more of a drunken scuffle as opposed to a serious, bloodlusted fight. Yet they are casually absolutely wrecking things like concrete, metal etc.
Yet in Avengers 2, Cap 1-arm throws Ultron through a huge concrete pillar.
45 secs.
I don't think I've seen a feat from Tony on that level, personally.
That's more than a simple "one arm throw". He twists/spins his body somewhat to create more momentum as he slams his arm into Ultron, not to mention he used some of Ultron's own momentum as he was coming past him. Still extremely impressive, but that was not accomplished purely through the power of one arm. Also, Cap was clearly straining very hard in his tussle with Ultron. Tony and Rhodey were casually wrecking things during their fight. For example, around 1:10, just the force of IM's knee hitting the floor relatively hard was already cracking it. Or around 1:50 where Tony easily puts Rhodey through a marble counter with one arm. And remember, he not only would need to have the strength to do that to begin with, but to do it while Rhodey is resisting him.
Bucky and Steve both have feats damaging concrete. Cap with his Ultron toss and Bucky punching a fist sized crater in a road during WS. But neither of them are shown doing it with anywhere near the same level of ease as someone wearing one of Tony's suits can. But what is more important to me from that clip is actually that none of what they were doing was actually really damaging each other. So even if Bucky has comparable strength in his arm, he is still going to have to work extremely hard to hurt IM.
Ok, but how much do you think that relatively small amount of momentum can really add to tossing a 7 foot robot through a concrete pillar? I doubt it'd be that much of a factor.
Anyway, personally I think the Ultron fight shows that Cap can hang with an Ironman style enemy fairly well. He could handle his strength somewhat and he was able to pierce Ultron's armor with a shield toss. Cap and Bucky should be able to pull off the scene from the trailer and eventually beat through his armor.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Ok, but how much do you think that relatively small amount of momentum can really add to tossing a 7 foot robot through a concrete pillar? I doubt it'd be that much of a factor.Anyway, personally I think the Ultron fight shows that Cap can hang with an Ironman style enemy fairly well. He could handle his strength somewhat and he was able to pierce Ultron's armor with a shield toss. Cap and Bucky should be able to pull off the scene from the trailer and eventually beat through his armor.
Question wasn't whether Cap could hang with him. I personally think that Cap's speed, h2h skill and agility advantage alone would allow him to at least hang with Tony in melee for a while. The question here specifically was about who was stronger, based on feats, and the Iron Man suits still hold the advantage there.
Barring plot device, or Tony holding back in that scene, Cap and Bucky would both die before they could beat through his armour to any relevant degree.
Also, you should not underestimate what a bit of momentum can achieve, especially if someone is a highly skilled martial artist like Steve is. Just look at a few Aikido vids and see comparatively small people toss far larger people around, by using their own strength and momentum against them in the right way. To do what Steve did would still require an absolute immense level of strength, but it wasn't done purely by the strength of one arm. But anyway, I really meant he got more extra rotational force from his hips that would have aided in the move. Any experienced fighter/martial artist will tell you that a lot of your actual striking power comes from there.
Also, another thing to consider, seeing as you brought up Steve. Cap held the weight of a what kind of looked like a VW Golf for a few seconds, with visible strain. Tony, with like 20% power in his IM1 armour, caught and held an Audi SUV in the air. So that is as direct a strength comparison as you can get between the two of them at least.
I was just drawing a comparison in response to the concrete pillar toss feat. I believe that both Captain America with his shield and Bucky's arm could do damage in the long run but, based on the durability Tony's suits have shown, it is going to take them quite a while to do debilitating levels of damage to it. And I just feel that Tony should be able to force an opening big enough to utilise some of his more powerful weapons before they could manage it, even with the OP restrictions placed on him.
This match is ultimately two low level superhumans with strong, yet still melee (unless someone tosses the shield), weapons versus a virtual walking tank. Better than a tank actually, considering what happened to the one Iron Man actually encountered.
IM doesn't need flight or beams to beat this team. He is a lot stronger and more durable then these guys. Also has those tiny missiles that took out a room full of people without killing them.
Team 1 needs literal bad writing or a weakened and holding back Tony Stark to have a chance. Flight and tri beams were disabled. Logic and reason were not.
Also people need to remember the movie hasn't come out yet. We have no idea the context of the situation, we have no idea if Tony was weakened or what was going on. Thus until the movie is out the scene quite literally can't be used to argue these guys could beat IM. Not unless someone somehow scored a super advanced copy of the movie.
The problem is, even if Tony doesn't get seriously hurt with a single hit from the team, he does get knocked around, not a lot but enough so that it's difficult for him to retaliate. Bucky and Cap are both faster than IM, and both of them hitting him at the same time means he keeps getting hit before he can retaliate.
And although his armor is tough, I don't see it lasting forever against Cap and Bucky. If this ends up in melee, I don't see IM being able to launch a good enough counter attack. Won't get the chance to launch a counter attack.
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Good call but thats the whole suit working together, in the new clip we see Cap holding a helicopter from taking off. And we know that arm is stronger then Cap.
Also of note: In that scene he caught the SUV by the front and held it straight out in front on him, which as a weight lifter yourself you know not having a weight distributed evenly makes it many times harder; this was while he was on very low power due to using the his jerry-jigged cave-built reactor.
IM on paper should be able to turn both Cap and Bucky into a bloody pulp. There's going to be context behind that scene of why they're kicking his ass, be it Tony's hurt, holding back or they outright amped Cap and Bucky even more in this film. Won't know until we watch. But Cap/Bucky lose as of Winter Soldier/AoU feats.