Manchester Black vs Cassandra Nova

You can ignore and downplay all you want, abhi. The scans are clear:

Originally posted by Galan007
Conversely, Jean divided Chuck's mind/essence into every mutant mind on earth. When Cassandra used Cerebra to reach out to these collective minds, the backlash was enough to drive her out of Xavier's body. However, the prominent force behind that was the fact that one of those minds was Jean herself--who just so happened to be tapping the power of the Phoenix at the time...

Cassandra: "No! White-Hot claws tearing through my head..." (an obvious reference to the Phoenix.)
Jean/Phoenix: "You're not welcome in his body or this world, Cassandra... Not while I'm here to protect it."
*Poof* Cassandra is separated from Chuck's body:

So basically, it took Phoenix+Xavier to overcome Cassandra after she'd used a lot of energy on other tasks. I suppose you might call that a poor showing... I wouldn't. 🙂

Jean tapping the Phoenix Force + Xavier drove Cassandra from Chuck's body. Jean never tapped the PF at any other point in the story, so Cassandra's showings against her prior to that are irrelevant to the scene in question.

"WHITE-HOT CLAWS TEARING THROUGH MY HEAD", coupled with Phoenix's subsequent monologue, is a dead giveaway that the Phoenix was a driving force behind Cassandra's defeat. 🙂

Originally posted by Galan007
You can ignore and downplay all you want, abhi. The scans are clear:

Yeah, Nova suckershot Charles. We get it.

But when she got mindraped by Charles, it doesn't matters.

Jean tapping the Phoenix Force + Xavier drove Cassandra from Chuck's body. Jean never tapped the PF at any other point in the story, so Cassandra's showings against her prior to that are irrelevant to the scene in question.

Wut? Jean was channeling Phoenix subconsciously. It wasn't until NXM 149 that she actually accessed Phoenix when she and Logan were about to die.

And her power signature has always been a Phoenix bird.

"WHITE-HOT CLAWS TEARING THROUGH MY HEAD" is a dead giveaway that the Phoenix was a driving force behind Cassandra's defeat. 🙂

So someone less powerful than Charles mindraped her while she was amped to tenth power?

Good to know.

The Phoenix manifested itself once against Cassandra during that arc--and that was in the scene I posted above.

I'm also not sure why you keep acting like I'm making this up: the Phoenix was clearly detrimental to Cassandra's defeat. The dialogue is perfectly clear:

Again: The Phoenix+Xavier was able to drive Cassandra from Chuck's body. It's right there on panel.

While your lowballing/downplaying is always fun, I'm not going to continue indulging it. So if anyone else has an intelligible argument, I'm all ears. 🙂

Originally posted by Galan007
The Phoenix manifested itself once against Cassandra during that arc--and that was in the scene I posted above.

Uh, what? Jean was constantly channeling Phoenix under Morrison.

That is made clear. It'd not like she accessed Phoenix powers all of a sudden.

I'm also not sure why you keep acting like I'm making this up: the Phoenix was clearly detrimental to Cassandra's defeat. The dialogue is perfectly clear:

Again: The Phoenix+Xavier was able to drive Cassandra from Chuck's body. It's right there on panel.

I'm also not sure why you are ignoring that Nova mind raped Phoenix on the very same page.

Without cerebra. How can Jean do anything to her while she is wearing Cerebra? As you are the one who keep reminding us that Cerebra amps psychic defenses and that's the only damn feat Nova has.

While your lowballing/downplaying is always fun, I'm not going to continue indulging it. So if anyone else has an intelligible argument, I'm all ears. 🙂

baka

I'm just using your own argument.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
To find mutants, or perv on them, whatever Xavier wants to see them for.

Btw, another point to make: the later feats by Nova (mindraping Glads despite his armour etc) were actually done using Chuck's brain. Nova controlled it whilst it was empty, sure, but she was using Chuck's body to do it.

Esme (or was it Sophie?) uses cerebra together with kick to attack Quentin Quire when he's only like 10 feet away, because it gives a power boost as well.

Originally posted by Galan007

If you put a drop of water on a bonfire, the fire will continue to rage on. Drop a lake on the bonfire, however, and it goes out real quick. Maybe not the best analogy, but I'm sure you understand what I'm saying.

Your analogy sucks, and you suck, and so does Smurph. Only abhi, my bestest buddy in the forum, doesn't suck 👆

But all hilarity aside, the way I see it, is this. Imagine you have a PC with encrypted files you don't want anyone to access. Protected by 512bit encryption, AV programs up the wazoo, multiple firewalls, <insert technobabble here>, the works. Hell, this PC won't even be connected to the wider world, being in isolation deep underground. No Wifi, no modem, nothing.

But you wrote the password to the files on a Post-It note, and left it by the side of the PC.

Sure, it's got powerful encryption, and incredible firewalls. Won't mean a thing if I can just sit there and type the password in.

THAT'S how I see the mind-link. Am I brute forcing your files? No. Am I more skilled than the firewall programmers? No. I have an easy way in, that bypasses all of that fancy stuff.

Originally posted by Mindset
But we know cerebro/cerebra let's them do more than just sense people.

It does now. When Xavier first puts it on, it's to act as a GPS locator.

Originally posted by Smurph
...Xavier's brain must actually have phasing and tk powers that he was waiting to break out the next time he got possessed?

What Red Skull does when in possession of Xavier's brain - applicable to Red Skull? So in threads where Red Skull is mentioned, I can use his feats when in possession of Xavier's mind?

Originally posted by Galan007

So basically, it took Phoenix+Xavier to overcome Cassandra after she'd used a lot of energy on other tasks. I suppose you might call that a poor showing... I wouldn't. 🙂

Did it? If I get into a fight, it doesn't take Tyson and Ali in their prime to take me down - I'd still piss my pants if they started fighting me, though.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Esme (or was it Sophie?) uses cerebra together with kick to attack Quentin Quire when he's only like 10 feet away, because it gives a power boost as well.

Yes, a power boost. But if Quentin had a special backdoor to get in?

Basically, Nova had four great feats in her short story arc:

[list=1]
[*]Mind-raping Chuck whilst he was in Cerebra
[*]Effortlessly taking Xavier/Jean/Scott out at the mansion
[*]Plunging the Shi-Ar empire into war, and effortlessly destroying Gladiator and other Guardians whilst they had mind-armour on
[*]Needing (?) Phoenix and Xavier to kick her out of Chuck's body
[/list]

Those are the feats. 4, I have already touched on. 3 was achieved with Xavier's brain and Xavier's central nervous system - not to mention, all she did was mind-control Lilandra, NOT the entire empire (Chuck has feats of FAR greater scope). The mind-armour of the Guardians SEEM suspect, as well.

2 was achieved with an infected, weakened Jean, and Xavier's role is suspect. At what point was he compromised? This is the question no one can answer. His actions can certainly be seen in a negative light (and a positive one, of course).

1, I still regard as suspect - because of that mind-link. She caught him unawares, using her link - and as soon as he became aware of what she was doing, he drew his gun and forced her out.

How powerful are the Stepfords? Because they were the ones who broke Nova's hold over everyone:
http://postimg.org/image/7jyqnuu8j/

Is Nova powerful? Yes. >10x Xavier, or Phoenix-level? No. Beast resisted her, and nearly killed her when Beak broke her concentration. Wolverine and Beast, together, resisted her. Cyclops ignored her, and could've stopped her.

Computers don't overheat with the fan whirring (see:nosebleed) when you put the password in

Originally posted by psycho gundam
Computers don't overheat with the fan whirring (see:nosebleed) when you put the password in

I might get a nosebleed when, in the course of navigating through the PC, it realises I am there, rallies, and forcibly ejects me from the system.

Whilst at the same time, I'm having a convo and TK playing with my dead puppet soliders.

Yeah, my analogy kinda fell over there, lol.

Or I mentally overpowered you

Actually, let's refine it further.

Galan's PC is super protected. Firewalls everywhere, incredibly strong encryption, NO line to the outside world.

Unfortunately, he accidentally PM'd his password to me, because he's cray like that (just like his PC, heh).

One day, he just HAS to get that sweet strap on porn. Connects his PC through AOL.

DS strikes. Using the password he sent, AND the link Galan has now set up, I get into his PC, and infect it with thousands of images of hairy women porn. Armpit hair, the works.

By the time he realises it, yes, Galan is super mad. Immediately starts infecting MY PC, and kicks me out, using the superior power of his PC. My PC overheats, and is damaged slightly.

But the damage is done. He has hairy women on his PC.

Did I outskill him? No. Did I brute force his passwords, and break into his PC? No.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
Or I mentally overpowered you

Well, yes, in this scenario, you ARE Xavier in Cerebra - of course you mentally overpowered me.

I suckershotted you, when you least expected it - when you realised, you threw me out. I still managed to damage you when I suckershotted you, though.

All that was stated is that Cerebra led Cassandra straight to Chuck. IOW, it allowed her to psychically lock-on to his location. It wasn't stated that this direct line of contact made it easier for her to mindphuck him, however.

Using the computer analogy: if a virus were to actually make it directly into my system(say I opened a virus-stricken email or w/e), it would still have to beat my various firewall/anti-virus measures before it could start phucking with my files directly... That's what Cassandra did to Chuck's mind almost instantly: she entered it, beat it's amped defense measures, and literally tore it apart.

If the feat required as little effort as you're describing, then Cassandra's nose wouldn't have been bleeding afterward(that in itself implies that she was utilizing a great deal of psychic effort.) As mentioned above: it was never alluded to that having a direct link to Chuck's mind gave Cassandra some sort of 'psychic cheat code' that enabled her to mindphuck him easier. So far as we know, she's simply that uber.

IMO. 🙂

What I believe DS is alluding to is his genetic link to Nova, not the Cerebra link.

From what was posted earlier, in Cassandra's words, "Charles and I have shared a unique psychic frequency since conception. It was no effort to take possession of his wonderful mutant brain and use it as my own.

This implies that it was plot device that she did the feat and not ALL by sheer overpowering. Something like how Sue manages to bypass Celestials durability.

Cassandra is explicitly stated how she managed to be able do the feat. This is clear writer intent.

Your wires are crossed. The scene being discussed isn't when Cassandra took control of Chuck. That came later. 🙂

Aside from that, possessing the same psychic frequency as Chuck doesn't change the fact that Cassandra still had to overwhelm his amped defenses in order to mindphuck him in the manner she initially did. Don't know why on earth you'd think that someone possessing the same frequency as Chuck inextricably renders his amped mind totally defenseless..? That wasn't stated anywhere.

Originally posted by Galan007
Your wires are crossed. The scene being discussed isn't when Cassandra took control of Chuck. That came later. 🙂

Aside from that, possessing the same psychic frequency as Chuck doesn't change the fact that Cassandra still had to overwhelm his amped defenses in order to mindphuck him in the manner she initially did. Don't know why on earth you'd think that someone possessing the same frequency as Chuck inextricably renders his amped mind totally defenseless..? That wasn't stated anywhere.

The feat is still impressive. It's just that with that plot device it makes it easier than without. I'm just going by writer's intent. She has a valid reason of how she is able to take control of his mind. In other words, the writer is saying that without that plot device then it would have been a lot harder or not possible. It's like performing a feat with help. In some cases, the feat is still impressive.

But yes, I got my wires crossed here. I just thought it was a misunderstanding between you two on the same scene and I was just trying to straighten it out.

My opinion on the fight is that Chester holds her off just long enough to use tk on her. But she also has tk. So this might not work well but then again I think this is an interesting thread.

Originally posted by Galan007
Your wires are crossed. The scene being discussed isn't when Cassandra took control of Chuck. That came later. 🙂

Aside from that, possessing the same psychic frequency as Chuck doesn't change the fact that Cassandra still had to overwhelm his amped defenses in order to mindphuck him in the manner she initially did. Don't know why on earth you'd think that someone possessing the same frequency as Chuck inextricably renders his amped mind totally defenseless..? That wasn't stated anywhere.

Exactly. Even with the same frequencies, Chuck should still be able to overwhelm her since he had an Amp in his possession. Example, two Kryptonian being under a yellow sun for the same amount of time. Both absorbing the same amount of energy, storing the same amount of solar radiation into their cells. Now give one of those Kryptonians a 10 times amp. Even with a surprise attack, the amped Kryptonian should be able to overwhelm the far weaker Kryptonian who was previously his equal due to energy absorption (hope that made sense).

Originally posted by Galan007
All that was stated is that Cerebra led Cassandra straight to Chuck. IOW, it allowed her to psychically lock-on to his location. It wasn't stated that this direct line of contact made it easier for her to mindphuck him, however.

Using the computer analogy: if a virus were to actually make it directly into my system(say I opened a virus-stricken email or w/e), it would still have to beat my various firewall/anti-virus measures before it could start phucking with my files directly... That's what Cassandra did to Chuck's mind almost instantly: she entered it, beat it's amped defense measures, and literally tore it apart.

If the feat required as little effort as you're describing, then Cassandra's nose wouldn't have been bleeding afterward(that in itself implies that she was utilizing a great deal of psychic effort.) As mentioned above: it was never alluded to that having a direct link to Chuck's mind gave Cassandra some sort of 'psychic cheat code' that enabled her to mindphuck him easier. So far as we know, she's simply that uber.

IMO. 🙂

👆

Cerebra led her to him (in my analogy, the AOL link) and their connection gave her a backdoor (in my analogy, your password written down for me to easily use).

As SOON as you realise what's happening, you shut me down, and throw me out, with your superior power. I still did some initial damage, though (enjoy those hairy women!). However, in throwing me out, you damage me.

That's how I read the whole scene. Then later, Xavier's suspect actions leads me to question at what point exactly did Cassandra's mind-control start.

Originally posted by carver9
Exactly. Even with the same frequencies, Chuck should still be able to overwhelm her since he had an Amp in his possession.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
👆

Cerebra led her to him (in my analogy, the AOL link) and their connection gave her a backdoor (in my analogy, your password written down for me to easily use).

As SOON as you realise what's happening, you shut me down, and throw me out, with your superior power. I still did some initial damage, though (enjoy those hairy women!). However, in throwing me out, you damage me.

That's how I read the whole scene. Then later, Xavier's suspect actions leads me to question at what point exactly did Cassandra's mind-control start.

Originally posted by Galan007
IF he was more powerful than her, yes... But he wasn't... So he couldn't. 👆

Based on the evidence at hand, I think this is a stretch... So I'll have to disagree for reasons I've already covered. 👆

👆 Fair enough!

Originally posted by Galan007
IF he was more powerful than her, yes... But he wasn't... So he couldn't. 👆

Based on the evidence at hand, I think this is a stretch... So I'll have to disagree for reasons I've already covered. 👆

I worded that part wrong but overall, I agree with you.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Is Nova powerful? Yes. >10x Xavier, or Phoenix-level? No.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
How powerful are the Stepfords? Because they were the ones who broke Nova's hold over everyone:
http://postimg.org/image/7jyqnuu8j/

Originally posted by krisblaze
Esme (or was it Sophie?) uses cerebra together with kick to attack Quentin Quire when he's only like 10 feet away, because it gives a power boost as well.