Originally posted by Ushgarak
As I just said, first they cannot always identify those humans....
Ush,
Exactly where in the movies did it say that?
In M1, Morpheus mentions "entire crops (of humans) were lost." Seems to me the machines knew pretty damn well who was rejecting the program (the whole crop). And also, the sentinels didn't have any trouble finding and flushing Neo when he rejected the program and "woke up."
Originally posted by In_cite
When Neo was born the glitch happened? 😄 I think you are getting a bit desperate here! So how many times has he been born now,...6 times? And each time he has caused this glitch you speak of. Remember that the other "The ones" looked exactly like Neo. So he must be reincarnating, according to you, and causing the glitch, according to you! That means our machines (the oracle) are genuine PROPHETS who can predict reincarnation? 😄
Thats not what i said. The glitch happens and will happen again. Its part of the matrix program. It causes the one, it is NOT caused by the one!And all the other one's where diferent people.what i said was that neo being the one was conincidence. it just happen when he was born.Like in the future, if the matrix is not destroied, it will happen with someone else.
sorry about the tongue thing 😛 lol 🙂
Originally posted by Underp
😮 i guess some people already know this.... but anyway,the actress who plays the role of "the oracle" died in Sept 2001.
I have reasons to think that between sept 2001 & part of 2002 w.brothers entirely modify part of the revolution script.
Based on something so ovious ( i don't really think they're going to put another woman to play the role of the oracle )
i think they have to paste some pieces of the script to justify her ausence in the screen.
So... forget about the oracle and everything she said, there is no reason to relate her words with the incident of NEO out of the matrix.
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They got another actress. They explain everything in the game. And will eventually in the movie. 😉
Originally posted by Ushgarak
The whole crop being lost means the Matrix failed and all the humans in it died!
That situation was never fully explained, but I believed that the entire crop "woke up" and had to be flushed.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Neo was under watch anyway because Cipher had tipped off the machines about Mr. Anderson. Other than that if the machines could trace people who were rejecting the programme then almost none of them would be rescued...
Oh really? Neo was never mentioned in the correspondence between Cipher and Agent Smith. Smith was only concerned with the access codes to Zion's mainframe. Besides, if the machines can pinpoint a human in a pod (Neo) who POTENTIALLY might reject the program ("under watch" as you put it) they certainly can pinpoint those that ARE rejecting it. Furthermore, Neo almost WASN'T rescued if you remember, but the crew of the Neb were able to trace his brainwaves, certainly the machines can do the same.
You want some fresh perspective? Here's some...
Let's back up a bit...what was Smith going to do with the codes to Zion's mainframe?
Shutdown Zion's mainframe? OK, if Zion is the "real world" exactly how would that be any big deal. They could just re-boot the mainframe after the shutdown, because the "hardware" would still be there. However, if Zion is another level of the Matrix, then shutting down Zion's mainframe would in fact, DESTROY ZION!
Which is precisely what Smith wanted to do! I think this is a not-so-obvious clue that people are over-looking. Doesn't it bother anyone that Zion's mainframe control room in M2 looks very "Matrix-like," all clean, and bright-white like the architect's room, while the rest of Zion is dark and dirty? There are alot of "Splinters in the Mind" in the 2 movies people. Think about it.
Originally posted by In_cite
In the 2 Matrix theory "the One" IS a necessity. He is needed to keep the Zion illusion real. As long as he's around the humans believe that they are truly free and that one day they will win the war! The key to the deception is that Neo doesn't (or didn't) know that he was just another pawn! However, to believe in the reality of Zion is to believe that the machines are suckers for pain,...like I said previously!The "glitch" is choice. The one is the eventuality of the glitch. The final piece in a system of control that was set up primarily because of the glitch. The first Matrix failed because of the glitch, at least so says the Architect. So did the second Matrix even after being modelled aftter human history. The solution was to give the illusion of choice to humans thereby controlling them. The One is the key to the control. Everytime he reinserts the prime code it takes into account those choices and eventualities that caused the system to have problems.
As to Neo's ancounter with Smith it still brings us back to believing that somehow Neo can Mentally control programs without being connected in a physical way to the system. If that's not "X-men" I don't know what is.
😉
If Zion was a virtual world, then you’d also have people there, who’d reject that part of the program. The Architect tells us plainly, that 99.9 % (or 99 %) do not accept the Matrix. If Zion is part of that, then you’d have to have people in Zion, who would be running around, feeling that this wasn’t real either.
We don’t have any of those. It’s not a question of whether or not Zion FEELS real. There will, by programming be a handful of people, who will just reject it. To argue that Zion is real, is not to argue the machines are “suckers for pain.” Zion is not a virtual world, but the machines allow it to be rebuild over and over, to have something to black-mail the One with, when he reaches the Source. Without that, the Anomaly might as well chose to cause the system to crash (the choice that Neo has now made, not his predecessors).
In that sense even Zion is another form of control (over the One), but it is still real enough.
The first Matrix failed, because humanity would not accept the perfect world. A second was then written, as it is humans who are “suckers for pain”, that used all the grotesqueries of our history this far.
And Neo being able to mentally control programs is not X-men, more than a Kiss in the real world being able to wake up a digital self in a virtual word is 🙂 The avatars running around in the Matrix are “mental projections of your digital self”. So what we’re probably dealing with here, is that Neo has unconsciously copied his digital self in the Source (just like Smith is able to copy his own program). What would happen if Neo copied his digital self, and only one of those returned to his body in the real world, leaving the other one roaming free in the Matrix?
Originally posted by Tomkat
That situation was never fully explained, but I believed that the entire crop "woke up" and had to be flushed.Oh really? Neo was never mentioned in the correspondence between Cipher and Agent Smith. Smith was only concerned with the access codes to Zion's mainframe. Besides, if the machines can pinpoint a human in a pod (Neo) who POTENTIALLY might reject the program ("under watch" as you put it) they certainly can pinpoint those that ARE rejecting it. Furthermore, Neo almost WASN'T rescued if you remember, but the crew of the Neb were able to trace his brainwaves, certainly the machines can do the same.
Let's back up a bit...what was Smith going to do with the codes to Zion's mainframe?
..that Zion's mainframe control room in M2 looks very "Matrix-like," all clean, and bright-white like the architect's room, while the rest of Zion is dark and dirty.
The humans wake up and had to be flushed is just it! If alot of people wake up it would be easy to pin point them wouldn't?So flushing everybody is easier than picking one here one there.
The agents mention that the sorce (sp) is for real meaning that cypher told them stuff before the dinner scene.It is also said that they underestimated Neo. They wanted to destroy Zion one person waking up would make no difference. Considering that the Nab isn't the only ship i'm assuming more people wake up!
They find Neo because they are connected to him in the Matrix.I dont think the machines can control everybody like that. The machine we see unplugging Neo probably only has that function,unplug who wake up. Making it easier to track the people who do outside the matrix (there have to be thousends of machines like that).
you dont really know what theycan do with the codes, maybe they can pin point their location or shut them down and then strike!
Tomkat, go watch the first film again. At the end of the first scene the Agents say that this has proven that the 'informer'- that is Cipher- is genuine and so they have the name of their next target. Cipher has tipped them off! Pretty obvious. Cipher was working with the machines BEFORE he met Smith- that is why the opening conversation between Trinity and Cipher is traced, Cipher isn't using a secure line, which is how they find Trinity. This established his credibility with them which is why the Agents did not mind that Trinity escaped.
And I think it is staggeringly obvious that the machines could cock-up Zion if they had the access codes- disabling the defences, for a start. Having ANY system's access codes means you can screw it over royally. Trying to say that this means that Zion is false is remarkably feeble- one of the worst and most desperate arguments I have heard yet. It stood up to perfect reasoning before any of this nonsense about Zion being unreal was added in and it still does now.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Tomkat, go watch the first film again. At the end of the first scene the Agents say that this has proven that the 'informer'- that is Cipher- is genuine and so they have the name of their next target. Cipher has tipped them off! Pretty obvious. Cipher was working with the machines BEFORE he met Smith- that is why the opening conversation between Trinity and Cipher is traced, Cipher isn't using a secure line, which is how they find Trinity. This established his credibility with them which is why the Agents did not mind that Trinity escaped.
I watched the first movie a few days before I saw "Reloaded", and I recall this now. However does it really doesn't prove anything one way or the other? Neo was "under watch" in the Matrix, but are you saying he could not have been "under watch" in his pod, because the machines can't trace his location? I say that the machines don't need to trace "pods" of those who are doubting the real world because as soon as the occupant "wakes up" they get flushed, and are no longer a threat to the Matrix (Thus no need to allow a REAL Zion to exist)
Unless, the "doubt" of those still plugged in but not yet "awake" is causing a problem?
Originally posted by Ushgarak
And I think it is staggeringly obvious that the machines could cock-up Zion if they had the access codes- disabling the defences, for a start. Having ANY system's access codes means you can screw it over royally. Trying to say that this means that Zion is false is remarkably feeble- one of the worst and most desperate arguments I have heard yet. It stood up to perfect reasoning before any of this nonsense about Zion being unreal was added in and it still does now.
I'm not saying that it DEFINITELY means Zion is false, I'm saying it COULD mean it.
There are alot of little "clues" that COULD point to a false Zion, maybe all of them are wrong, but maybe not. NOONE knows for sure yet. But to just automatically dismiss it as a "feeble" argument is so obtuse, it borders on rude.
Originally posted by Tomkat
I However does it really doesn't prove anything one way or the other? Neo was "under watch" in the Matrix, but are you saying he could not have been "under watch" in his pod, because the machines can't trace his location? I say that the machines don't need to trace "pods" of those who are doubting the real world because as soon as the occupant "wakes up" they get flushed, and are no longer a threat to the Matrix (Thus no need to allow a REAL Zion to exist)Unless, the "doubt" of those still plugged in but not yet "awake" is causing a problem?
They cant wake up without help. So the people who doubt do became a problem.
Originally posted by The Omega
If Zion was a virtual world, then you’d also have people there, who’d reject that part of the program. The Architect tells us plainly, that 99.9 % (or 99 %) do not accept the Matrix. If Zion is part of that, then you’d have to have people in Zion, who would be running around, feeling that this wasn’t real either.
That has always been my point. The differences, however, between the illusion in Zion AND the illusion in the Matrix are
1. With Zion, the probabilities of rejection are smaller. If we take the architect's rejection probabilities as absolute law, the same in all "frames of reference", then we'd expect that the probability that you "wake up from The Matrix" and then "wake up from Zion" would be 1% of the 1% that wake up from the Matrix(Very Small). The possibility of waking up will always be there no matter how convincing the illusions are. This is one reason why it hasn't happen until now.
2. The humans genuinely believe they are fighting the machines and setting people free. It's a simple trick ,...really. Give the humans a reason why they feel The Matrix isn't right and base it on,...(drumroll),...The Truth. The reason is the humans have been enslaved by the machines AND there is the possibility that they can be free AND that they can free others. This is a true possibility for the humans HOWEVER it is also the reason why the illusion has worked so well. It is an illusion based on truth as opposed to the Matrix where they are presented with a reality that makes no reference to it's captors. However, it is also a deception doomed to fail!
Originally posted by The Omega
We don’t have any of those. It’s not a question of whether or not Zion FEELS real. There will, by programming be a handful of people, who will just reject it. To argue that Zion is real, is not to argue the machines are “suckers for pain.” Zion is not a virtual world, but the machines allow it to be rebuild over and over, to have something to black-mail the One with, when he reaches the Source. Without that, the Anomaly might as well chose to cause the system to crash (the choice that Neo has now made, not his predecessors).
In that sense even Zion is another form of control (over the One), but it is still real enough.
Neo is, unknowingly, an important part of the illusion. The machines have, in the past, used "the One's" emotional attachment to the humans to blackmail him, as you so rightly put it. However, The One must always be kept in the dark about the illusion BECAUSE he can really shut the system down. So in the past all the other "The Ones" have always played into the hands of the Machines keeping the illusion alive. The 23 individuals chosen by the one believe they have been the 1st ones to be saved by this "Messiah". However, this time they couldn't black Mail Neo because he loved Trinity more than he loved humanity,...or so it would seem. For the first time such "blackmail" couldn't work. Neo CHOSE differently and as such has started a chain of events that hasn't happened before. The Anomaly (choice) will ultimately lead to the destruction of the machines.
Originally posted by The Omega
And Neo being able to mentally control programs is not X-men, more than a Kiss in the real world being able to wake up a digital self in a virtual word is 🙂 The avatars running around in the Matrix are “mental projections of your digital self”.
...when one is CONNECTED to the Matrix. 😉
Originally posted by The Omega
So what we’re probably dealing with here, is that Neo has unconsciously copied his digital self in the Source (just like Smith is able to copy his own program). What would happen if Neo copied his digital self, and only one of those returned to his body in the real world, leaving the other one roaming free in the Matrix?
When I mean "X-men" I mean anything that requires Metaphysical basis to be plausible. A mental projection (digital self) can be explained WITHOUT Metaphysics. When you are connected to the Matrix the mental image of yourself is produced. They have very primitive forms of avatatrs in VR games. That's easy. HOWEVER, should you disconnect yourelf from the Matrix (remove the plug to the Matrix from the back of your head) your mental image does not keep running around in the Matrix. 🙂 Even if it did what you are proposing is that somehow, Neo in the Real world when he is not connected to The Matrix (not plugged in) he can still "Talk" to the Matrix. This, I fear, requires a belief in Psychic abilities (effect from a distance). An "X-Men" solution, if you will! 😉 If we can accept such a solution then why not one that say's the reason why Neo stopped the Sentinels is because Zion is still an illusion, ...A Matrix.
😄
Originally posted by Tomkat
There are alot of little "clues" that COULD point to a false Zion, maybe all of them are wrong, but maybe not. NOONE knows for sure yet. But to just automatically dismiss it as a "feeble" argument is so obtuse, it borders on rude.
I agree with this. Personally, I feel the Zion is a Matrix solution is quite feasible (and doesn't require Metaphysics, per sa, to swallow 😄). However, people seem to be so offensive when it is suggested. Alot of evidence (CIRCUMSTANCIAL) allows for this possibility. To make statements like,.."...I don't care what you say Zion cannot be a Matrix" and "...I just know that Zion is real" also shows some level of immaturity, gross ignorance and an inability to calmly weight the pros and cons of an argument. 🙂 Let's not get sentimental,...people. Afterall, revolutions is coming quite soon!
😉
Originally posted by Kes
Still doesn't explain the dream.If he can see whats going to happen then he can have powers!
...or he can see what is "going to happen" BECAUSE he is still plugged into the Matrix (even in Zion) and as such dreams about what the machines want him to dream about (at least the whole bit with Trinity). That is, put images into his head. It's all part of the control thing. Add to this the images of the "The door" he has to go through and "The Building" of the Architect.
😉
But he was supposed to chose the other door! You said so yourself.Otherwise it all goes to hell! And the machines cant predict or plan wahts going to happen.They are free to chose remember?! If he hadn't ask trinity to stay they would be dead because the bomb wouldnt have beed diactivaded(sp). Has for "some level immaturity, gross ignorance and an inability to calmly weight the pros and cons " well we have been discussing the same thing for quite some time and ,though none of us can either prove 1matrix or 2matrix, the fact is that in 2 movies of 3 you only see one.