The OFFICIAL 'Is there more than one Matrix?' thread

Started by Metroplex27 pages

Did anyone of you ever heard of the Allegory of The cave by Plato?

Here how it goes:

A man from birth is tied into a cave and stares at a wall. He never moved from that exact spot because he is tied there, but behind him is a fire. This fire shows the shadows of the people around him and is reflected onto the wall.

One day this man is released and escapes the cave and sees the trees, the sun, mountains etc. However, the man thinks that all of it is fake because he was held in the cave for so long that he believes that the only real things are the shadows on the walls. He goes back into the cave and continue to stare at it.

Well i guess the point of this is that we sometimes reject what is real ,but accept what is not real. Just like in the matrix.

Hmm. Not actually relevant that, is it?

Sure it is. The man in the cave believes that the shadows is real (that is his world) just like the people in Zion who believes that that is the real world. But in reality, there is something else in it. That is the world outside. As the caveman goes outside and sees another world. So there are two worlds within another.

No... still doesn't get to the point of the question. And that being the case please keep all the philosophy in the provided philosophy area.

Belgarion irongrip> Wrong. Please reread my previous statement about rejectors of the VR.

Belgarion: Boring, more like. If your ideas about why it is false or real have already been posted and debated here a ton of times already, at the very LEAST say 'I agree with x or y'. And preferably don't try and pull the argument back around in circles at all.

Originally posted by The Omega
You have 250.000 people in Zion. 1 % of that is still 2500 rejectors. Even if it’s just 1% of 1 % you then have 25. We still don’t see anyone who’re the least bit troubled by the reality of Zion. It’s a programming flaw, not a conscious or subconscious choice, there will simply BE, by programming default, a percentage of the population who WILL reject the program. Neo unknowingly being part of an illusion, still does not explain the absence of Zion disbeliveers in reality.

I hope this does not sound condescending but your use of probabilities is slightly flawed. The probability figure obtained from calculating 1% of 1% does not mean that 25 people WILL "wake up". It means 25 people are the EXPECTED number of people that will wake up. That is, it may be 27, 19, 10 or even 0. So people CAN be running around an illusion that is Zion and not ever know it. Probability is not certainty! It is possible that no one would recognise up until now. And the flaw in the system IS the inability of the system to cater for every possible choice. The system cannot handle the (sometimes "irrational", without logical reason) choices that human beings make.

Originally posted by The Omega
And actually, Ushgarak has made a point, that more than anything goes in favour of Zion being real. Namely Smith wanting the access codes for Zion. If the city was part of the Matrix, why bother?

I don't think it's that hard to think of reasons. Please indulge me. Smith may not have known that Zion is part of the same system of control as the Matrix. In my theory you must think of 2 Matrix environments that are connected in the same system. Smith was a program that resided in the "20th Century" type Matrix for a specific purpose. Only very few programs know of the "bigger picture". I would guess the Architect and maybe "The Oracle". This, among other things, helps keep the illusion from falling to bits by...drumroll...renegade programs. The programs running around in the 20th Century Matrix will continue to do the job they were written for. However, Smith is now renegade and among other things has now found a way to transcend from one Illusion to the other! Bad problem!

BTW:This is another effect from Neo's actions i.e. if Neo hadn't CHOSEN to destroy Smith Smith would not have been free and, in particular, would not be able to enter Zion. An eventuality that the system, The Matrix, hadn't catered for. Now we have Smiths everywhere in The Matrix! 🙂 The problem is inability to handle choice (and the anomalies thus created).

Originally posted by The Omega
And I’m all against any metaphysics in the Matrix. I also thought there had to be a second Matrix (Zion), until I got an explanation from Enter the Matrix, that would explain why Neo could stop the sentinels, without resorting to anti-Ockham explanations.
And a copy of Neos digital self in the Matrix does not require metaphysics. We know the programs can copy themselves. An avatar in VR is nothing but a neat program. Usually, if the plug is pulled and the avatar is not disconnecting, the avatar will collapse. But suppose there were two Neo avatars. One returned disconnected while the other remained behind in the machine main-frame. All you need is “belief” in wireless technology on a biochemical scale to make it work 😄

Wireless technology at a Biochemical level? Are you saying that the Biochemical reactions in Neo's head in the real world "somehow" allow him to control this Avatar, still within the Matrix? The point is for you to Control your Avatar you need to be PLUGGED IN. Neo is not and thus the only explanation is action from a distance. Put another way,...Metaphysics! 😄

Originally posted by Kes
lol yeh! 😛

There you go sticking your tongue out at me,...again! 😄 I'm beginning to think you're doing it on purpose now!

Bla bla bla....😖

Originally posted by In_cite
There you go sticking your tongue out at me,...again! 😄 I'm beginning to think you're doing it on purpose now!

😛

Originally posted by Kes
😛

Predictable,...arent' you? Just like the rest of the human race! 😉 Study someone long enough and you can almost tell, with certainty, what they will do next. For instance, I know you won't stick your tongue out at me ever again during this discussion. 😄

Boring... don't even try and answer that, Kes. Let's keep this topic steering true...

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Boring... don't even try and answer that, Kes. Let's keep this topic steering true...

...and mess up my little experiment! 😂 Where is your sense of adventure?

Feel free to out-psyche poor Kes in private. I do want this thread kept to the point.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Feel free to out-psyche poor Kes in private. I do want this thread kept to the point.

...I understand! We should stick to the point of the discussion. 🙂

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Feel free to out-psyche poor Kes in private. I do want this thread kept to the point.

out-psyche me?! give me some credit!

ok to the point. what is the point we have tried every angle of the Matrix theory! 🙁

i think shes right...for once 😗

Originally posted by In_cite
I hope this does not sound condescending but your use of probabilities is slightly flawed. The probability figure obtained from calculating 1% of 1% does not mean that 25 people WILL "wake up". It means 25 people are the EXPECTED number of people that will wake up. That is, it may be 27, 19, 10 or even 0. So people CAN be running around an illusion that is Zion and not ever know it. Probability is not certainty! It is possible that no one would recognise up until now. And the flaw in the system IS the inability of the system to cater for every possible choice. The system cannot handle the (sometimes "irrational", without logical reason) choices that human beings make.

I don't think it's that hard to think of reasons. Please indulge me. Smith may not have known that Zion is part of the same system of control as the Matrix. In my theory you must think of 2 Matrix environments that are connected in the same system. Smith was a program that resided in the "20th Century" type Matrix for a specific purpose. Only very few programs know of the "bigger picture". I would guess the Architect and maybe "The Oracle". This, among other things, helps keep the illusion from falling to bits by...drumroll...renegade programs. The programs running around in the 20th Century Matrix will continue to do the job they were written for. However, Smith is now renegade and among other things has now found a way to transcend from one Illusion to the other! Bad problem!

BTW:This is another effect from Neo's actions i.e. if Neo hadn't CHOSEN to destroy Smith Smith would not have been free and, in particular, would not be able to enter Zion. An eventuality that the system, The Matrix, hadn't catered for. Now we have Smiths everywhere in The Matrix! 🙂 The problem is inability to handle choice (and the anomalies thus created).

Wireless technology at a Biochemical level? Are you saying that the Biochemical reactions in Neo's head in the real world "somehow" allow him to control this Avatar, still within the Matrix? The point is for you to Control your Avatar you need to be PLUGGED IN. Neo is not and thus the only explanation is action from a distance. Put another way,...Metaphysics! 😄


not meaning to offend *at all* in cite...but ahh, do you...do much in your life?

Originally posted by princess leia
i think shes right...for once 😗

Funny girl 😛 😄

i try 😉