Kylo Ren vs Darth Vader

Originally posted by Lord Stark
OBI-WAN
Why do I think you are going to be
the death of me?!

ANAKIN
Don't say that Master... You're
the closest thing I have to a
father... I love you. I don't want
to cause you pain.

PADME
Annie, are you just going to sit
here and let him die?? He's your
friend... your mentor...

ANAKIN
...He's like my father, but you
heard Master Windu. He gave me
strict orders to stay here.

Straight from the screenplay. We also have no idea what happened between Kylo and Han. If you were to have never watched the OT and started with the Prequels, Kenobi's death has a huge impact similar to that of Han's.

Did

Spoiler:
Ben feel betrayed by Han ?

Vader stomps here. He's more powerful by feats, and the movie itself did say that Kylo's biggest fear was that he would never be as powerful as Darth Vader. Also his fighting technique isn't as refined as Vader's and again Vader has more experience.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
It does have a huge impact, but it's definitely different. When Kenobi dies, Vader already has an incredible amount of hatred towards him. There was always this sort of competitiveness between Anakin and Kenobi, even though their relationship was supposedly that of a father and a son.

Han simply feels completely abandoned by his biological son, he loves him and tries to redeem him. Kenobi fought Vader and knew he would be defeated, so he willingly became one with the Force. On the other hand,

Spoiler:
Han dies begging his son to come back to the light. It's a significantly different emotional scenario.

I'm sorry Quan, but where are you saying Vader failed?

His trolls are getting worse. Somehow.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'm sorry Quan, but where are you saying Vader failed?

Kylo definitely isn't on Vader's level, at least not yet.

Originally posted by quanchi112

Did

Spoiler:
Ben feel betrayed by Han ?

I'd imagine yes. Snoke has twisted his mind against Han, as Sidious twisted Anakin's against Vader.

They even named Kylo Ben to further parallel the scene with the one in ANH.

Nah. They named him Ben because it's a nice nod to the character. And like I said, the scene parallels RotJ far more so than ANH. They've even described Kylo as the anit-Luke.

Ah the ROTJ parallel doesn't quite work for me, because we already knew the relationship between Father and Son there.

Here we had no clue, never even saw a scene between them before, much like Old Ben and Vader in ANH.

Although this film has borrowed things from all of the OT, so they might have had that ROTJ scene in mind as well. But it's mainly a revamp of ANH.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
I'd imagine yes. Snoke has twisted his mind against Han, as Sidious twisted Anakin's against Vader.

They even named Kylo Ben to further parallel the scene with the one in ANH.

You mean against Kenobi? 😂

I found it interesting that they named him Ben.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Ah the ROTJ parallel doesn't quite work for me, because we already knew the relationship between Father and Son there.

Huh? We knew the relationship in both cases.

Anyway, the scene is a completely mirrored version of the events of RotJ.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
You mean against Kenobi? 😂

I found it interesting that they named him Ben.

😆 Yeah Kenobi.

I did as well. Its a parallel to ANH again. Kylo's killing of Han represents the metaphorical death of Ben where as Darth Vader literally kills Ben in ANH.

Originally posted by ares834
Nah. They named him Ben because it's a nice nod to the character. And like I said, the scene parallels RotJ far more so than ANH. They've even described Kylo as the anit-Luke.

Eh kinda. I think it reflects ANH far more.

> Kenobi offers to train Luke as a Jedi/ Han offers to let Rey join his crew.
> Kenobi is a general who played an integral part in the last war/ Han is a general who played an integral part in the last war.
> Kenobi assists in rescuing the female lead from the Death Star/ Han assists in rescuing the female lead from Starkiller base
> Kenobi is a father figure to Darth Vader in the prequels/ Han is Kylo's father.

What more do you need? The parallels are there.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
I'd imagine yes. Snoke has twisted his mind against Han, as Sidious twisted Anakin's against Vader.

They even named Kylo Ben to further parallel the scene with the one in ANH.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, it was a nod to the character. As I said the circumstances between both scenes as well as the history was different. Kylo is an inverse Luke.

If you can't see the metaphor of Ben dying by killing Han paralleling Ben Kenobi's actual death...I don't even know what to say.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Eh kinda. I think it reflects ANH far more.

> Kenobi offers to train Luke as a Jedi/ Han offers to let Rey join his crew.
> Kenobi is a general who played an integral part in the last war/ Han is a general who played an integral part in the last war.
> Kenobi assists in rescuing the female lead from the Death Star/ Han assists in rescuing the female lead from Starkiller base
> Kenobi is a father figure to Darth Vader in the prequels/ Han is Kylo's father.

What more do you need? The parallels are there.

There certainly are parallels and Han is undoubtedly the Kenobi of this film.

However, the scene itself is more a homage to RotJ; specifically because of what the characters in question are going through and trying to do.

Originally posted by ares834
There certainly are parallels and Han is undoubtedly the Kenobi of this film.

However, the scene itself is more a homage to RotJ; specifically because of what the characters in question are going through and trying to do.

I think the death of the mentor is a far more important aspect of the scene than him trying to bring him back to the light though.

Uh, no? The entire point was Leia convinced him to commit suicide, and he actually listened because Luke was able to turn child-murdering, planet busting, mentor killing, son maiming, wife-choking, Darth-****ing-Vader back to the Light because "love conquers all." Except it doesn't.

Originally posted by ares834
Huh? We knew the relationship in both cases.

Anyway, the scene is a completely mirrored version of the events of RotJ.

No we were told what the relationship was. That's different to being familiar with their relationship.
You're not going to feel much for their relationship when you never saw it in the first place.

Whilst the ROTJ relationship we saw develop. We knew it as well as Luke did.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
If you can't see the metaphor of Ben dying by killing Han paralleling Ben Kenobi's actual death...I don't even know what to say.