Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vader's stoic and wearing a mask. We don't know what's going on under it. Furthermore, Vader wasn't "toying" with Luke. Testing him, sure. But toying with him? Nah.I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that Kylo and Finn are on the same level. What is being suggested is that Kylo's performance, all things considered, against Finn and Rey was pretty damn embarrassing.
Vader was certainly toying with Luke. And in a similar fashion to the Kylo/Finn duel, when Luke got in a lucky hit Vader crushed his opponent shortly afterwards.
And I don't disagree that Kylo's performance was embarrassing. However, when the text says Kylo was treating this duel as "play" it's pretty damn obvious that he was toying with them.
Originally posted by Lord StarkThat's one definition, here's another:
Sith do enjoy battle.And this is the definition of play: the conducting of an athletic match or contest.
a. Exercise or activity engaged in for enjoyment or recreation rather than for a serious or practical purpose; amusement, entertainment, diversion
Considering he says he was "enjoying" the fight, it's pretty clear which makes more sense. He was toying with him.
Originally posted by The_TempestSeeing as the novel is as Canon as the film, we don't really have any authority to dismiss it's implications based on personal interpretation.
Intriguing. Anyway, it certainly didn't seem in the movie like Kylo was "playing" with anybody. When Sidious plays with someone, you see signs: smiles, laughter, various communicators of levity. Kylo was wounded and pissed.Maybe it's as the movie implies and he's just nowhere near the big dogs?
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Well, besides Luke, everyone on that list is dead, so kind of. I shouldn't have to say, "top-tier in the Luke's temple." That's kind of implied by common sense.
But he's not. Top tier suggests the top tier as in able to fight on par with the best. To suggest Kylo is top tier is to suggest he's of a similar level as Luke.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
That's one definition, here's another:a. Exercise or activity engaged in for enjoyment or recreation rather than for a serious or practical purpose; amusement, entertainment, diversion
Considering he says he was "enjoying" the fight, it's pretty clear which makes more sense. He was toying with him.Seeing as the novel is as Canon as the film, we don't really have any authority to dismiss it's implications based on personal interpretation.
Didn't seem like he was playing. The fact that it was a 'contest' suggests it was more than a game for Kylo.
Originally posted by Lord StarkNot really, a game isn't fun if there is zero competition. As Kylo said, he was expecting an execution, not something he could get pleasure from. Finn put up enough of a fight to give Kylo a challenge, but that doesn't mean he was taking it seriously/giving it his all.
Didn't seem like he was playing. The fact that it was a 'contest' suggests it was more than a game for Kylo.
Heck, the fact he was holding back is demonstrated when Kylo dispatches him quickly. That is how the fight would have gone if he had been serious from the beginning. And if Kylo hadn't been injured and been mentally stable? It would have been an execution.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
But he's not. Top tier suggests the top tier as in able to fight on par with the best. To suggest Kylo is top tier is to suggest he's of a similar level as Luke.
The third best "red saber" duelist in the mythos didn't instantly blitz a muggle. Honestly, I don't know where saber skill stands at in canon at this point. Luke went from getting stomped in ESB to challenging Vader in a year, like a year prior he was being beaten by Vader's random underlings. Jedi and the like have obviously been taken down a notch.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not really, a game isn't fun if there is zero competition. As Kylo said, he was expecting an execution, not something he could get pleasure from. Finn put up enough of a fight to give Kylo a challenge, but that doesn't mean he was taking it seriously/giving it his all.
His power was intensifying throughout the fight. Right, so you concede he was challenged.
Heck, the fact he was holding back is demonstrated when Kylo dispatches him quickly. That is how the fight would have gone if he had been serious from the beginning. And if Kylo hadn't been injured and been mentally stable? It would have been an execution.
Prove this. Kylo was getting stronger and stronger as the fight progressed, I honestly doubt the injury was hindering him as much later on in the duels.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Really? Because that's not what that statement means in anyway. Regardless, for all we know, Kylo could. It's not like he isn't supposed to be obviously very skilled.
That is exactly what that means. A tier is synonymous with level. If Luke and Kylo are both top tier, that implies they are of the same level of swordsmanship. If you wanna say Kylo was among the best of the Temple that's one thing, but to suggest he's top tier is ridiculous.
The third best "red saber" duelist in the mythos didn't instantly blitz a muggle. Honestly, I don't know where saber skill stands at in canon at this point. Luke went from getting stomped in ESB to challenging Vader in a year, like a year prior he was being beaten by Vader's random underlings. Jedi and the like have obviously been taken down a notch.
Lords of the Sith and Darth Vader down suggest otherwise. Vader's feats in that are in line with those of his EU feats. As does Yoda's obliteration of a Separatist army in the first episode of TCWs.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
That is exactly what that means. A tier is synonymous with level. If Luke and Kylo are both top tier, that implies they are of the same level of swordsmanship. If you wanna say Kylo was among the best of the Temple that's one thing, but to suggest he's top tier is ridiculous.
Lords of the Sith and Darth Vader down suggest otherwise. Vader's feats in that are in line with those of his EU feats. As does Yoda's obliteration of a Separatist army in the first episode of TCWs.
My interpretation of the fight was that Kylo was toying with Finn at first, and started taking it seriously after being struck. His performance against Rey was embarrassing considering she had never used a lightsaber before. Maybe that's just a sign of Rey's power rather than Kylo's weakness? Hard to know for sure. Plus he was injured.