Originally posted by Lord Stark
I think what people are saying now, upon reevaulating the duel is not that Kylo sucks overall, but that he sucks in comparison to any other major antagonist or protagonist.
Right!
And part of that is he's a 'padawan,' so to speak. His training is not complete.
He's going to gain a level or two of badass now that he's fully committed to the dark side, he feels he can't go back, and he's going to finish his training.
but doesn't change the fact that he was severely outclassed by his predecessors. Kenobi (a padawan) ending doing very well against Maul... a seasoned trained Sith Apprentice. Anakin (a padawan) ends up doing pretty good against Dooku the first time around. Yet here, a complete and utter noob, with no training whatever so ever, beats a padawan Kylo. It's a low showing. No two ways about it.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
]AND?? None of that surpasses what Luke and Anakin were shown doing. Both were stated to be superb pilots, instinctively good mind you. Shoot, Anakin as a young boy was already a renowned pilot and building robots like it was nothing. So let's not try and make it seem like she was anymore prodigious in the force than either Luke or Anakin. Here's the difference that makes his low showing worse than the others....
Rey's piloting skills shown with the Falcon easily trump Anakin's piloting skills shown in TPM. Much as they trump Luke's piloting skills in ANH. And unlike both Skywalkers, Rey did neither have the advantage of flying pod racers on a competetion level, as Anakin did. Nor did she have practice with aircrafts, as Luke did...
Anakin showed the some propensity for Force sensitiveness as Rey, and even exponentially more training, he still got pwned by Dooku the first time they met.
Where? Anakin, as of TPM, wasn't even capable of using the Force in a controlled fashion. Rey resists some form of mind domination, even mirrors it, uses the mind-trick and, apparently, "oneness". With the latter being the criterium that actually matters. Before that, she was essentially running from Kylo, barely capable of parrying his swings and suddenly she wins.
That aside: Saying that Kylo is no pushover is far from putting him on one tier (or even above) Count Dooku.
Luke showed some of the same force sensitive stuff as the others, and again, with more training than Rey... still lost to Vader the first time they met.
Yes. And still Vader considered him a challenge after, what, days of formal training, with Vader being one of the most experienced lightsaber wielders in the mythos at that point in time. Kylo most certainly is no Vader, much as he isn't Dooku.
In stark contrast, Rey had next to no training at all, and yet, was still able to be Kylo.
Yes. An injured Kylo.
Do I remember that wrong, or was he hit by a weapon, that was featured as the most devastating firearm available in the movie even compared to Han Solo's blaster? That thing that is shown literally blasting people off their feat. And he tanks a direct hit, grunts, gets on his knees and goes fighting. I wonder how he even managed to stay upright after that.
Now before anybody talks about her being Luke's daughter and her force potential... Kylo is Leia son.. and thus would have the same blood running through him. What's worse, I'd reckon having Han Solo's DNA would be more advantageous than Padame's.
Erm. What?!
You do realize that, even assuming that Rey is Luke's daughter, we have no idea who the mother is, right?
Point is, it was a very low showing for Kylo, and there are no two ways about it.
Yes. Leaving his injury and Rey's apparent state of "oneness" out of the equation, which is, pretty much, the basis for your argument: Ignorance.
Originally posted by Nai
Rey's piloting skills shown with the Falcon easily trump Anakin's piloting skills shown in TPM. Much as they trump Luke's piloting skills in ANH. And unlike both Skywalkers, Rey did neither have the advantage of flying pod racers on a competetion level, as Anakin did. Nor did she have practice with aircrafts, as Luke did...
Well she was flying a far superior ship to either of them. And she also didn't have to concentrate on firing shots- leaving that to Finn.
But in terms of firing shots (while flying) nothing else matches ANH Luke's destroying of the Death Star.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Why are we comparing an 8 year old to a 19 year old anyway?
You can also compare Rey to ANH Luke, and she would still be superior.
And, contrary to popular belief, Rey isn't inexperienced with ships in the slightest. And her speeder is capable of low-altitude flight, I heard. She has plenty of experience, and says so herself in the movie. 😬
She is a scarvenger who can't even get enough food. Where would she get piloting experience from? There is also a slight difference between handling a freaking speeder and operating a heavily modified transport ship that usually requires a co-pilot.
And I don't recall her mentioning any experience. She just says that she can pilot. Seeing how she does handle the Falcon in the first seconds after leaving ground actually makes pretty clear that she doesn't have any experience...
Originally posted by Rebel95
He was also "severely injured" by Chewie's bowcaster. The fact that he was even able to fight after that is incredible, considering the power of the bowcaster. Did you see what it did to stormtroopers?
I mean force sensitives are highly resilient. We see Kenobi get ragdolled and then crushed under at least a ton of metal and then fight with Magnaguards later with no trouble at all.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
but doesn't change the fact that he was severely outclassed by his predecessors. Kenobi (a padawan) ending doing very well against Maul... a seasoned trained Sith Apprentice. Anakin (a padawan) ends up doing pretty good against Dooku the first time around.
Note Kenobi was totally ready to be a full Knight- ditto Anakin.
Yet here, a complete and utter noob, with no training whatever so ever, beats a padawan Kylo. It's a low showing. No two ways about it.
It's an injured showing is what it is.
And it's not like it's just fighting one, he first fought a badass normal with melee training, and then he fought a melee experienced just-awakened force user. Yea, she had no *force* training- other than what Kylo ironically showed her- but she does know her way around weapon fighting.
Seriously, this is making me annoyed at so many *other* movies who act like you can fight with a major burn in your gut and as long as you don't fall over you're just fine. It's given people bad expectations.
This isn't even like just a glancing burn either, this is a full Bowcaster, one-shot kills most people, hit.
Or to put it another way, Kylo lost, not to Rey on her own, but to Chewie, Finn, and Rey together. She would've never lasted long enough to start to draw on the force more if it hadn't been for the prior events.
Originally posted by Nai
You can also compare Rey to ANH Luke, and she would still be superior.She is a scarvenger who can't even get enough food. Where would she get piloting experience from? There is also a slight difference between handling a freaking speeder and operating a heavily modified transport ship that usually requires a co-pilot.
And I don't recall her mentioning any experience. She just says that she can pilot. Seeing how she does handle the Falcon in the first seconds after leaving ground actually makes pretty clear that she doesn't have any experience...
Wut??? That isn't how you prove your conclusion. What you did there was work backwards to try and prove your conclusion instead od examining the evidence and then drawing a conclusion. This is evidenced by your "Look at how she first drove the Falcon" clearly, that must mean she has little to know flying experience. Not how it works. That's like saying because I drive a motorcycle, I must not have any driving experience. In fact, it's the exact opposite. Anytime any of get into a vehicle we haven't driven before (especially as complex as the falcon) there is always going to be a learning curve.
Further, one is a primary source of evidence, the other is your speculation on your part. She literally says she can pilot, which without any ambiguity, disproves your conclusion. In fact, that one line totally and completely crushes the proof of.. yeah, she couldn't drive the Falcon right away, clearly she has little flying experience
I would say that was bad, but in fact it was God awful
Originally posted by Nai
Rey's piloting skills shown with the Falcon easily trump Anakin's piloting skills shown in TPM. Much as they trump Luke's piloting skills in ANH. And unlike both Skywalkers, Rey did neither have the advantage of flying pod racers on a competetion level, as Anakin did. Nor did she have practice with aircrafts, as Luke did...Where? Anakin, as of TPM, wasn't even capable of using the Force in a controlled fashion. Rey resists some form of mind domination, even mirrors it, uses the mind-trick and, apparently, "oneness". With the latter being the criterium that actually matters. Before that, she was essentially running from Kylo, barely capable of parrying his swings and suddenly she wins.
That aside: Saying that Kylo is no pushover is far from putting him on one tier (or even above) Count Dooku.
Yes. And still Vader considered him a challenge after, what, days of formal training, with Vader being one of the most experienced lightsaber wielders in the mythos at that point in time. Kylo most certainly is no Vader, much as he isn't Dooku.
Yes. An injured Kylo.
Do I remember that wrong, or was he hit by a weapon, that was featured as the most devastating firearm available in the movie even compared to Han Solo's blaster? That thing that is shown literally blasting people off their feat. And he tanks a direct hit, grunts, gets on his knees and goes fighting. I wonder how he even managed to stay upright after that.
Erm. What?!
You do realize that, even assuming that Rey is Luke's daughter, we have no idea who the mother is, right?Yes. Leaving his injury and Rey's apparent state of "oneness" out of the equation, which is, pretty much, the basis for your argument: Ignorance.
No it doesn't, not in the least was that better than Anakin was shown doing as a child. To say nothing about Anakin also showing genius level intellect to be able to create somebody as intricate as c3po. Incoorrect again, Luke was shown with just a few words to be able to block multiple close range blaster shots while blindfolded. I'd sau that is pretty comparable to anything shown by Kylo. The ones moments are common place in the mythos. Yet, he still lost to vader and his hand in the process. Please stop acting like it was some out of the ordinary moment for Rey, it wasn't, but Kylo losing was.
You're right, he's no Dooku nor is he a vader, which, go figure, is what I'm saying. When I say it was a low showing, and he's seemingly weaker than the others..... guess what.. he's not them. Crazy enough, that is my point.
Stop trying to escuse his poor performance as anything other than apoor performance
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiHe was severely injured and took a lightsaber wound also prior to his fight with Finn.
but doesn't change the fact that he was severely outclassed by his predecessors. Kenobi (a padawan) ending doing very well against Maul... a seasoned trained Sith Apprentice. Anakin (a padawan) ends up doing pretty good against Dooku the first time around. Yet here, a complete and utter noob, with no training whatever so ever, beats a padawan Kylo. It's a low showing. No two ways about it.
Two lightsaber wounds left Kenobi on the ground and unable to help Anakin in aotc.
Originally posted by NaiShe is a scarvenger who can't even get enough food. Where would she get piloting experience from?
She certainly knew a lot about the Millenium Falcon. Knew all the modifications done to it, knew about the safety's, even comes to the same conclusion as Solo once speaking at the same time as him. Heck she even knew it's purchase history. So it's not like she knew Nothing about the ship she flew, or had zero piloting experience.
And again she was flying a far superior ship to ANH Luke.
Still nothing beats ANH Luke blowing up the Death Star.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
She certainly knew a lot about the Millenium Falcon. Knew all the modifications done to it, knew about the safety's, even comes to the same conclusion as Solo once speaking at the same time as him. Heck she even knew it's purchase history. So it's not like she knew Nothing about the ship she flew, or had zero piloting experience.And again she was flying a far superior ship to ANH Luke.
Still nothing beats ANH Luke blowing up the Death Star.