Yoda vs Palpatine (TO THE DEATH!)

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Don't believe you. Even if so, that only shows right now, I'm talking about through our adults lives. I pull, you wish you did. Simple.

Dude, I've never skyped with a girl. EVER. The thought hasn't even crossed my mind. You're a weirdo. As I said, I'm glad I never gave you my aim.

Again, he never beat Yoda, EVER. Post the clip if you have it then

I am fb verified but if you'd like I could message Bada and he can confirm.

I've skyped with women but if I've talked with someone from on here it isn't homosexual so quit being creepy.

He did beat Yoda in the film. Yoda failed and even said so.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
That was his choice though. They were fighting on neutral ground, yet Palpatine chose not to continue that.

Probably to attempt to gain a high ground advantage, and make better use of his Force powers presumably because he didn't feel too confident carrying on the Saber fight on neutral ground.

we don't know that, the scene cuts from them being on neutral ground to all of a sudden them being in the chancellors pod, we don't really know how that played out or how Sidious all of a sudden had the high ground when he started chucking senate pods at Yoda

Originally posted by relentless1
we don't know that, the scene cuts from them being on neutral ground to all of a sudden them being in the chancellors pod, we don't really know how that played out or how Sidious all of a sudden had the high ground when he started chucking senate pods at Yoda

Actually we do:

The script:

http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Revenge-of-the-Sith.html

"PALPATINE seeks refuge in the vast Senate Chamber. He gets into the Chancellor's Podium and it starts to rise up into the Arena."

Originally posted by quanchi112
Your speculative nonsense doesn't take the place of facts. What I'm saying is based off what actually hapekenhappened which takes precedence over your wild imagination.

🙄
You don't apply context to the "facts" which is equal to missrepresenting them. If you want to ignore context, you may want to refrain from arguing any kind of fictional work. Ignoring context, Spock can outsmart Khan in every given situation, because he did so once. Do you spot the error in that kind of "logic"?

I am saying Anakin is a more powerful force user than Kenobi not that it equates to he can't ever lose to Kenobi. He clearly did. Using the force like any other attack is based on timing. Both force users attacked at around the same time so both were knocked backwards because of it. According to Sidious himself Anakin was more powerful than Dooku who was clearly more force powerful than Kenobi.

🙄
I know, and by far better than you, that Anakin is more powerful than Kenobi. Yet, based on on-screen evidence he isn't. Not in that particular situation. Otherwise he would have overpowered Kenobi with ease in that particular scene. He doesn't.

Anakin was usually arrogant. He made another stupid run first maneuver against Dooku in aotc. He was overconfident which is another blatant Sith quality. He paid the price for his arrogance.

He was heralded as "The Chosen One" and the most powerful Jedi in history. That tends to make people a little bit overconfident. Arrogant? Well. He ususally didn't take risks that he couldn't handle.

Sidious was overconfident and allowed Yoda the time to recover and left himself defenseless. Yoda hurt him and showed him that his life was indeed in jeopardy. His cowardice flared up then.

Cowardice? To a certain extend, yes. But it would be illogical to assume that Sidious was acting out of baseless fear, rather than calculating his chances and assuming that losing was a definite option. It wasn't for Yoda.

Sidious also didn't knock Windu down for over thirty seconds leaving him defenseless. So pretending he is Windu's superior in a duel is just that when direct evidence suggests otherwise. Yoda failed to best Dooku in the time he had against him with a saber before Dooku fled.

Maybe because Windu had his lightsaber out already, when Sidious launched the attack - unlike Yoda. Windu could barely deflect Sidious' lightning with the help of his saber. Yoda did so with his bare hands. And what does Dooku have to do with that? Dooku was widely regarded as Windu's equal and he, much like Sidious, didn't run without a reason. He realized that he had no chance against Yoda and hence did flee.

Yoda allowed him to gain the higher ground. That's on him. They both started on equal ground. Windu didn't allow him more than a few feet away from him and kept him pinned down. Just as Kenobi took the higher ground against Anakin Yoda also paid the price for being so far below him.

Erm. Did you even watch "Revenge of the Sith"? Windu is driven backward by Sidious in the initial phase of their duel, after having watched three of his fellow Jedi die at the hands of the Sith Lord. Yoda was driving Sidious back until they reach the podium. According to the script, Sidious - after losing his weapon - started to blast Yoda with Force Lightning instantly (which he didn't do against Windu) and then used the distraction to remove himself from the close range situation.

Assuming equal ground: He would go where exactly?

Your imagination isn't a legitimate point nor does it stop me from providing an alternative but unlike you I debate based off facts not what ifs.

You still didn't provide an alternative, because you have no imagination. Which is kind of hindering, when trying to debate fictional fights between fictional characters. You're probably at the wrong place with your mindset, Quanchimon.

Yoda didn't have three other Jedi to bring with him. He sent Kenobi after Anakin and went himself after Sidious. He didn ring Kenobi against some clones to gain entrance into the temple so if a Jedi is available he has brought one before. Quit ignoring the fact there were two more Jedi and Yoda failed per his own words.

Erm.
Do you realize, that you are - essentially - arguing, that the guy who lost three mates to Sidious in a 4 on 1 situation and then managed to beat him on equal ground, is superior to the guy who almost managed to beat him in a 1 vs 1 situation, and just failed because of circumstances and outright bad luck? Just asking.

Yoda lost so his confidence was misplaced maybe. 😂

According to your logic, Windu also lost, because at the end, he was dead. He even performed worse than Yoda, who at least left the arena alive. So even according to your skewed Quanchilogic, Yoda > Mace.

Originally posted by Nai
🙄
You don't apply context to the "facts" which is equal to missrepresenting them. If you want to ignore context, you may want to refrain from arguing any kind of fictional work. Ignoring context, Spock can outsmart Khan in every given situation, because he did so once. Do you spot the error in that kind of "logic"?

🙄
I know, and by far better than you, that Anakin is more powerful than Kenobi. Yet, based on on-screen evidence he isn't. Not in that particular situation. Otherwise he would have overpowered Kenobi with ease in that particular scene. He doesn't.

He was heralded as "The Chosen One" and the most powerful Jedi in history. That tends to make people a little bit overconfident. Arrogant? Well. He ususally didn't take risks that he couldn't handle.

Cowardice? To a certain extend, yes. But it would be illogical to assume that Sidious was acting out of baseless fear, rather than calculating his chances and assuming that losing was a definite option. It wasn't for Yoda.

Maybe because Windu had his lightsaber out already, when Sidious launched the attack - unlike Yoda. Windu could barely deflect Sidious' lightning with the help of his saber. Yoda did so with his bare hands. And what does Dooku have to do with that? Dooku was widely regarded as Windu's equal and he, much like Sidious, didn't run without a reason. He realized that he had no chance against Yoda and hence did flee.

Erm. Did you even watch "Revenge of the Sith"? Windu is driven backward by Sidious in the initial phase of their duel, after having watched three of his fellow Jedi die at the hands of the Sith Lord. Yoda was driving Sidious back until they reach the podium. According to the script, Sidious - after losing his weapon - started to blast Yoda with Force Lightning instantly (which he didn't do against Windu) and then used the distraction to remove himself from the close range situation.

Assuming equal ground: He would go where exactly?

You still didn't provide an alternative, because you have no imagination. Which is kind of hindering, when trying to debate fictional fights between fictional characters. You're probably at the wrong place with your mindset, Quanchimon.

Erm.
Do you realize, that you are - essentially - arguing, that the guy who lost three mates to Sidious in a 4 on 1 situation and then managed to beat him on equal ground, is superior to the guy who almost managed to beat him in a 1 vs 1 situation, and just failed because of circumstances and outright bad luck? Just asking.

According to your logic, Windu also lost, because at the end, he was dead. He even performed worse than Yoda, who at least left the arena alive. So even according to your skewed Quanchilogic, Yoda > Mace.

😂

He is more powerful just not more formidable. Lots of boxers and UFC fighters are more powerful that doesn't make them invulnerable. Look at George Foreman vs Muhammad Ali. Foreman had the power but was beaten by the weaker opponent.

He was arrogant. Points to Dooku loss and Kenobi loss. His losses cost him limbs. He was an idiot in combat multiple times taking chances he shouldn't have taken acting reckless.

Once Palpatine realized he might lose or die he wanted no part of it. Yoda called him out. Palpatine should have exited when Yoda was down or at the very least pressed his advantage.

Yoda is going there to kill him so why his saber isn't out is ridiculous. He also doesn't need his saber out to redirect force lightning. Windu was smarter and unsheathed his saber right away. Yoda erred in judgment unlike Windu. Windu did deflect it and it hideously scarred Palpatine. Sidious directly hit Yoda initially and the second time he disarmed him. Those damn facts standing in your way.

Backward just as Sidious went back. On equal ground he was still disarmed while Windu wasn't.

Speculation on your imagination is the art of the fool. Basing our conclusions on facts is the only way to properly debate.

The guys Windu brought didn't even survive more than 25 seconds. Opress lasted longer so they were easy Pickens and Windu won a fair one on one fight. He didn't press any advantage the numerical advantage gave him because they died rather quickly.

Luck is your perception which isn't a fact. What happened is Yoda lost and Windu won. Biased posters use words like luck to describe results that don't sit well with them.

Windu won as Sidious was no longer able to defend himself and Anakin betrayed an ally. Context, sport. Windu wasn't ko'd for over thirty seconds either one on one like Yoda was. Those amazing facts always supporting meanwhile the only thing supporting you is your wild and kooky imagination.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Actually we do:

The script:

http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Revenge-of-the-Sith.html

"PALPATINE seeks refuge in the vast Senate Chamber. He gets into the Chancellor's Podium and it starts to rise up into the Arena."

Don't tell that to the Sids apologists... They think he threw the fight.. and even while throwing the fight he was at a disadvantage because of the terrain.... 🙄

If it isn't on screen then it didn't happen, movies should be able to explain thing on their own, supplementary material should not be required

Originally posted by quanchi112
Spock was given advice from Spock prime and lied to him. Khan still didn't die despite two Spocks and the enterprise crew all working together against him. Without Kirk they all would have died and Khan would have lived. In a battle thread Khan isn't trying to get back his crew.

😂

Oh. So you are capable of applying context. Why don't you exercise your ability here?

He is more powerful just not more formidable. Lots of boxers and UFC fighters are more powerful that doesn't make them invulnerable. Look at George Foreman vs Muhammad Ali. Foreman had the power but was beaten by the weaker opponent.

🙄

He was arrogant. Points to Dooku loss and Kenobi loss. His losses cost him limbs. He was an idiot in combat multiple times taking chances he shouldn't have taken acting reckless.

Nobody denies that.

Once Palpatine realized he might lose or die he wanted no part of it. Yoda called him out. Palpatine should have exited when Yoda was down or at the very least pressed his advantage.

Irrelevant to a new version of this fight discussed in this thread here, were both are ready and willing to kill eachother (which usually means no banter before the fight).

Yoda is going there to kill him so why his saber isn't out is ridiculous. He also doesn't need his saber out to redirect force lightning. Windu was smarter and unsheathed his saber right away. Yoda erred in judgment unlike Windu. Windu did deflect it and it hideously scarred Palpatine. Sidious directly hit Yoda initially and the second time he disarmed him. Those damn facts standing in your way.

I wonder how any of that facts does stand in my way. As I see it, the subject of the discussion is their ability to fight eachother, not errors in judgement, since they won't apply anyway. May I quote the OP of this thread:

"Who would win a proper fight and proper to the death, no falling off a platform and crawling down a ventilation shaft cuz clone troopers be coming[...]"

Emphasis mine.
By this, I assume the threadstarter had a fight on equal ground in mind, where both opponents would be aware of the respective opponents strength and act accordingly. You are, essentially, trying to proof that Sidious did "win" his RotS duel with Yoda, which is of no consequences to this debate here.

The facts that matter here are:

1) Yoda disarmed Sidious in a lightsaber fight.
2) They stalemated in a direct force contest.

If Sidious can't really kill Yoda with the Force (we see him trying and failing) and vice versa, but Yoda can disarm Sidious (whom we see without lightsaber), then the conclusion for a "proper fight" on equal ground would be: Yoda wins.

Backward just as Sidious went back. On equal ground he was still disarmed while Windu wasn't.

Once more: Context.
That "equal ground" was Sidious blasting Yoda, when Yoda jumped onto a pod that Sidious already occupied. It's very unlikely that this would have happened on equal ground (since we already know that the lesser Force user Mace Windu was capable of defending against Sidious lightning). Furthermore you are ignoring the fact that Sidious was disarmed first.

Speculation on your imagination is the art of the fool. Basing our conclusions on facts is the only way to properly debate.

🙄

I base my conclusions on facts. You base your conclusions on facts that do not matter for this discussion, which is the moron way to debate.

The guys Windu brought didn't even survive more than 25 seconds. Opress lasted longer so they were easy Pickens and Windu won a fair one on one fight. He didn't press any advantage the numerical advantage gave him because they died rather quickly.

Translation: If anybody but Quanchi's current favorite (here: Mace Windu) doesn't capitalize on an advantage, they are idiots. If Quanchi's favorite does the same, it is time to gloss over that fact. 👆

Luck is your perception which isn't a fact. What happened is Yoda lost and Windu won. Biased posters use words like luck to describe results that don't sit well with them.

Did you even read my posting? 🙄

Windu won as Sidious was no longer able to defend himself and Anakin betrayed an ally. Context, sport. Windu wasn't ko'd for over thirty seconds either one on one like Yoda was. Those amazing facts always supporting meanwhile the only thing supporting you is your wild and kooky imagination.

For facts supporting my oppinion. See above.
And I find it hilarious that you point out context. Context for you: Yoda failed because he was lighter than Sidious, who wasn't thrown down to the Senate chamber when the force energies between the Jedi Master and the Sith Lord exploded. Won't happen on equal ground. Yoda couldn't go back up and continue the fight, because Clone Troopers were already on their way to protect the new emperor. Won't happen in this very setup of the fight.

So. How is Sidious going to win exactly, Quanchimon? Answer or kindly shut up and troll elsewhere.

Originally posted by Nai
Oh. So you are capable of applying context. Why don't you exercise your ability here?

🙄

Nobody denies that.

Irrelevant to a new version of this fight discussed in this thread here, were both are ready and willing to kill eachother (which usually means no banter before the fight).

I wonder how any of that facts does stand in my way. As I see it, the subject of the discussion is their ability to fight eachother, not errors in judgement, since they won't apply anyway. May I quote the OP of this thread:

"Who would win a [b]proper fight and proper to the death, no falling off a platform and crawling down a ventilation shaft cuz clone troopers be coming[...]"

Emphasis mine.
By this, I assume the threadstarter had a fight on equal ground in mind, where both opponents would be aware of the respective opponents strength and act accordingly. You are, essentially, trying to proof that Sidious did "win" his RotS duel with Yoda, which is of no consequences to this debate here.

The facts that matter here are:

1) Yoda disarmed Sidious in a lightsaber fight.
2) They stalemated in a direct force contest.

If Sidious can't really kill Yoda with the Force (we see him trying and failing) and vice versa, but Yoda can disarm Sidious (whom we see without lightsaber), then the conclusion for a "proper fight" on equal ground would be: Yoda wins.

Once more: Context.
That "equal ground" was Sidious blasting Yoda, when Yoda jumped onto a pod that Sidious already occupied. It's very unlikely that this would have happened on equal ground (since we already know that the lesser Force user Mace Windu was capable of defending against Sidious lightning). Furthermore you are ignoring the fact that Sidious was disarmed first.

🙄

I base my conclusions on facts. You base your conclusions on facts that do not matter for this discussion, which is the moron way to debate.

Translation: If anybody but Quanchi's current favorite (here: Mace Windu) doesn't capitalize on an advantage, they are idiots. If Quanchi's favorite does the same, it is time to gloss over that fact. 👆

Did you even read my posting? 🙄

For facts supporting my oppinion. See above.
And I find it hilarious that you point out context. Context for you: Yoda failed because he was lighter than Sidious, who wasn't thrown down to the Senate chamber when the force energies between the Jedi Master and the Sith Lord exploded. Won't happen on equal ground. Yoda couldn't go back up and continue the fight, because Clone Troopers were already on their way to protect the new emperor. Won't happen in this very setup of the fight.

So. How is Sidious going to win exactly, Quanchimon? Answer or kindly shut up and troll elsewhere. [/B]

A roll eyes doesn't rebut my point but concession accepted.

So you concede another point. Moving on.

They tried to kill each other here as well. Do you think either would have not killed the other had they had the chance ? FFS.

Yoda had time to win at multiple points in the fight but losing the higher ground again doesn't bode well for him. The evidence is against you and crawling on his hands and knees to escape pansy ass Yoda.

I am simply relying on the evidence a fight between the two of them does bring to the table. Ignoring evidence is kind of your thing not mine. You just let your silly little imagination decide these fights.

Yoda disarmed but failed to beat him. Palpatine disarmed him and knocked him off the pod win in the duel just not taking Yoda's life. Strategy matters and Palpatine clearly had the better strategy despite not having a saber for the final part of the fight we see.

We don't see how Yoda disarms Sidious though we do see how Sidious disarms Yoda. Emphasis mine. The evidence we see is clearly greater than the evidence we don't see because the context is unknown. Yoda has to be ready for the fl and he wasn't great enough to completely redirect it back at Sidious without hitting him. Yoda wasn't even great enough with force powers to best Dooku.

Emphasis mine.

Who cares ? We see Sidious more than defend himself when he's disarmed but Yoda not so much. Sidious used fl twice and both times it was effective. Once it temp ko'd him and the second time it disarmed and send Yoda careening off the pod. He used it against Windu and he sent it back at Sidious. I know facts tend to confuse that wild imagination of yours but they won't change no matter how many times you attempt to spin them.

You base your conclusion on skewed facts or imaginative bullshit.

I despise Windu but he showed intelligence and got shit done. I like Palpatine ten times more than I like Windu but that doesn't override the facts.

Yes, but unlike you I can rebut your points.

On equal ground Sidious ko'd him you Neanderthal. 😂

Continue to ignore the facts and pretend Yoda wins.

Nail him with force lightning and capitalize. He can go blow for blow with sabers but his force powers are clearly more dangerous. The best Yoda can do is send a ball of energy that knocks them both back a ways but doesn't clearly damage either one. Sidious can ko Yoda with fl because he already has.

Making it short.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Nail him with force lightning and capitalize.

Yoda has demonstrated the ability to absorb and redirect Sidious lightning, even when being hit with it while not prepared to do so. Do you accept that fact, or do you want to go on ingoring it?

He can go blow for blow with sabers but his force powers are clearly more dangerous.

He can't go blow for blow with sabers, which is pretty apparent from the fact that he loses his lightsaber in the duel with Yoda. Do you accept that fact, or do you want to go on ignoring it?

The best Yoda can do is send a ball of energy that knocks them both back a ways but doesn't clearly damage either one. Sidious can ko Yoda with fl because he already has.

Actually, Yoda can force push Sidious into the next wall and capitalize on the Sith Lord trying to reorder his clothes - because he already has. And unlike Yoda showing a defense against Force lightning later, Sidious didn't show any kind of defense against Yoda force pushing him.

At the end of the day, Yoda would defeat Sidious with sabers and stalemate him with the Force. Advantage Yoda.

Originally posted by Nai
Making it short.

Yoda has demonstrated the ability to absorb and redirect Sidious lightning, even when being hit with it while not prepared to do so. Do you accept that fact, or do you want to go on ingoring it?

He can't go blow for blow with sabers, which is pretty apparent from the fact that he loses his lightsaber in the duel with Yoda. Do you accept that fact, or do you want to go on ignoring it?

Actually, Yoda can force push Sidious into the next wall and capitalize on the Sith Lord trying to reorder his clothes - because he already has. And unlike Yoda showing a defense against Force lightning later, Sidious didn't show any kind of defense against Yoda force pushing him.

At the end of the day, Yoda would defeat Sidious with sabers and stalemate him with the Force. Advantage Yoda.

We don't know the context of how his saber was disarmed exactly. We see them go blow for blow and even when he was disarmed he was still fine. Yoda failed to capitalize. Do you accept this fact or not ?

If Sidious sits there and cackles like a moron. I for one don't think he will do that again with Yoda fine and in front of him. He was not prepared and it caught him off guard. Yoda can't just force push him at will into defeat. Don't be silly.

Fl wins this for Sidious. The further he is away the residual blast only hits Yoda. If he connects he ko's Yoda.

Emphasis: Palpatine.

Originally posted by relentless1
If it isn't on screen then it didn't happen, movies should be able to explain thing on their own, supplementary material should not be required

You just said yourself we don't know what happened because the scene is missing. When you're explained what happened in the missing scene from the script itself you dismiss it as not being art of the movie 😬

And btw it seemed clear to me personally that In The Film Sidious chose to be on that platform, because how/why would Yoda force him there?

So to me it is clear from the film. BUT if that's not good enough and you want definitive proof, then simply go back to the script, so the film makers intention is clear.

fair enough. filling in the gaps is acceptable i suppose, ill give you that one but that doesnt change the fact that Sidious wasn't is a prime environment once he was on that podium, that area was more suited for Yodas small stature and wild technique. Sidious made a mistake in going there but he made up for it by gaining higher ground.

^ But why did he go there in the first place? It seems because he wasn't confident of winning the Saber fight even on neutral ground, so opted for the senate pod which was his best chance to gain the high ground and make use of his Force Powers.

Highlighting that he's probably much closer to being Yoda's equal in Force Powers than he is in Sabers, and understood the environment he lead the fight to better than Yoda (or perhaps is just a superior tactician to Yoda).

Originally posted by relentless1
If it isn't on screen then it didn't happen, movies should be able to explain thing on their own, supplementary material should not be required

And yet you still feel like Sids threw the fight. when there isn't a shred of concrete proof of any such thing. Not once in the movie or the novel did Lucas ever, ever, mentioned Sids throwing the fight. There is literally nothing like that, anywhere. A five year old would watch the movie, and go, Windu beat Palps. It's all right there and easy to see. Yet, you still side with inference and speculation instead of cold hard facts. If you actually took your own advice, you wouldn't feel he threw the fight.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yoda also at his best can redirect the blast into both he and Palpatine. If Palpatine is further away the residual blast won't hit him just Yoda. I am looking at exactly what happened after he disarmed Yoda. 😂

Yeah. Because that's how deflecting force lightning works.

YouTube video

Not.

We don't know the context of how his saber was disarmed exactly. We see them go blow for blow and even when he was disarmed he was still fine. Yoda failed to capitalize. Do you accept this fact or not ?

Yes. We don't know the context, but we know that the saber is gone. I can also point to what we actually see:

YouTube video

Going by the faces of Sidious and the sounds he makes, he struggles quite more in that lightsaber fight than Yoda does.

If Sidious sits there and cackles like a moron. I for one don't think he will do that again with Yoda fine and in front of him. He was not prepared and it caught him off guard. Yoda can't just force push him at will into defeat. Don't be silly.

Much like Sidious can't force lightning Yoda into defeat. Don't be silly.

Fl wins this for Sidious. The further he is away the residual blast only hits Yoda. If he connects he ko's Yoda.

See first Clip above. The further he is away from Yoda, the easier it would be to deflect the lightning with risidual blasts hitting nobody.

Emphasis: Palpatine.

Apparently, you don't even know what "emphasis" means. And Yoda still wins. 🙂

I'm still waiting for that deleted scene where Sids beats Yoda as Quan is claiming

Ah it's funny watching Nai make an idiot out of Quanchi's trolling "arguments".

He's definitive in combating buffoonery

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
And yet you still feel like Sids threw the fight. when there isn't a shred of concrete proof of any such thing. Not once in the movie or the novel did Lucas ever, ever, mentioned Sids throwing the fight. There is literally nothing like that, anywhere. A five year old would watch the movie, and go, Windu beat Palps. It's all right there and easy to see. Yet, you still side with inference and speculation instead of cold hard facts. If you actually took your own advice, you wouldn't feel he threw the fight.

all my observations about palpatine throwing that fight IS right there on the screen, I've gone over this ad nauseous and I'm not gonna tread that ground again, go find the thread where we had this long debate if you want to revisit my solid observations