Originally posted by DarkSaint85The sad part is, I don't think people realize magnitudes. As in, how fast something like 100,000,000,000,000,000 calculations per second is - and Flash is calling that slow.
He can't, well, he was complaining about the Watchtower's computers being slow:You'd think if he could, he would. I know h1 likes these kinda things:
*skip*
It's faster than most brains on this forum can even introduce in a context.
problem is this: if we assume flash has all of these abilities (recall, i'm a huge flash fan, have used various versions of flash in tourneys etc..) then the character is either effectively a moron, or we, as readers, are assumed ot be morons. there is really no middle ground.
i believe 100% that in a comic, flash couldn't do jacksh!t to this hulk. he'd struggle mightily with a REGULAR hulk, forget THIS ultimate version of hulk.
but, when you look at all his feats collectively, well, it's asinine. truly. so, where do you draw the line. FOR FUN, hulk and betty were devastating a an entire planet, effortlessly. a hulk, much, much, MUCH lower than this level had nearly every hero in marvel sh!tting themselves. and yet, somehow, it's expected that flash beats him. easily? that....doesn't work for me. at all. the implications are ludicrous. it'd be better if everyone just said flash was the most powerful hero ever created and moved on. do we tier characters based on forum potential, or in-book performances? i always thought it was based on in-book stuff? i acknowledge some of his in-book stuff IS crazy. so is that the norm?
i think we either need to remove flash from forum battles, or agree to find some sort of average for him, because some of the conclusions that are being drawn are......100% h1. the flash discussed here would utterly, 100% of the time, crush superman. in an attosecond (superman has no attosecond showings) flash pushes superman's brain out by turning intangible. done and done.
he does the same to odin. with infinite mass, he could LITERALLY punch galactus out, who was briefly ko'd by nothing more than a headbutt from odin. and it's clear flash can hit far, far, FAR harder than odin, physically.
i really don't know if it's hulk hate, carver hate, or just flash luv, but the discussion has gone way overboard. h1 has been the butt of a 1000 jokes for citing much of what i've seen here. we really do need some form of ruling for flash. or he needs to be removed from the tier system and elevated WELL beyond guys like thanos. because this hulk would beat the sh!t out of thanos, so flash would end thanos in...less than an instant?
methinks this has been carried on way too far, but i'm not sure how it should be governed. i just know the flash portrayed in this thread is a NOT the flash we see every time we open a flash comic. it's more like the flash we see when we open a cbr thread.
Originally posted by leonidasTwo things:
a). Nobody is disagreeing with you that within the comics, Hulk would take the majority.
b). The forum is not a comic book environment where PIS is present. It's simple - in a full capacity setting, Hulk wouldn't even percieve Flash. Hell, he wouldn't even percieve the fight has started.
The problem is, like I said, scale. Nobody is saying here that Flash would operate 100% times at the peak speed he's shown in comics. But the numbers that are being discussed here? Flash could be operating at 0.0000000000001% of his speed, and Hulk would still be a statue.
In order for Hulk to have a chance of even realising he's in a fight, Flash would have to be neutralized - like in the comics. Where:
a). He would stomp the ground to make Flash lose balance
b). Flash would run into his hand.
In a logical setting, Hulk is impotent to do anything. In a rigged setting, i.e. comics, Hulk would illogically come out on top for a majority.
The forum isn't a rigged situation - the full capacity accounts for PIS.g
Its not quite the same as h1, though.
H1 talks about 50 Earth weights, extrapolating from comic panels. Makes assumptions, about this and or that.
The Flash on the other hand lovingly details how his mass increases the faster he goes, approaching infinity. Lovingly details his attosecond reaction speeds, etc. Makes a point of how Barry is a scientist, etc.
There is NO extrapolation. The Flash does indeed think that fast, and DOES weigh up all the options (or at least, can).
Therefore, he doesn't really have CIS, rather, CIP and PIS.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85👆
Its not quite the same as h1, though.H1 talks about 50 Earth weights, extrapolating from comic panels. Makes assumptions, about this and or that.
The Flash on the other hand lovingly details how his mass increases the faster he goes, approaching infinity. Lovingly details his attosecond reaction speeds, etc. Makes a point of how Barry is a scientist, etc.
There is NO extrapolation. The Flash does indeed think that fast, and DOES weigh up all the options (or at least, can).
Therefore, he doesn't really have CIS, rather, CIP and PIS.
We don't need to extrapolate the relative effects - the Flash actually states them on panel. The same for his reaction time - we don't need to extrapolate how fast he must think to do one thing or another - he blatantly points out his own perception level.
Originally posted by leonidas
problem is this: if we assume flash has all of these abilities (recall, i'm a huge flash fan, have used various versions of flash in tourneys etc..) then the character is either effectively a moron, or we, as readers, are assumed ot be morons. there is really no middle ground.i believe 100% that in a comic, flash couldn't do jacksh!t to this hulk. he'd struggle mightily with a REGULAR hulk, forget THIS ultimate version of hulk.
but, when you look at all his feats collectively, well, it's asinine. truly. so, where do you draw the line. FOR FUN, hulk and betty were devastating a an entire planet, effortlessly. a hulk, much, much, MUCH lower than this level had nearly every hero in marvel sh!tting themselves. and yet, somehow, it's expected that flash beats him. easily? that....doesn't work for me. at all. the implications are ludicrous. it'd be better if everyone just said flash was the most powerful hero ever created and moved on. do we tier characters based on forum potential, or in-book performances? i always thought it was based on in-book stuff? i acknowledge some of his in-book stuff IS crazy. so is that the norm?
i think we either need to remove flash from forum battles, or agree to find some sort of average for him, because some of the conclusions that are being drawn are......100% h1. the flash discussed here would utterly, 100% of the time, crush superman. in an attosecond (superman has no attosecond showings) flash pushes superman's brain out by turning intangible. done and done.
he does the same to odin. with infinite mass, he could LITERALLY punch galactus out, who was briefly ko'd by nothing more than a headbutt from odin. and it's clear flash can hit far, far, FAR harder than odin, physically.
i really don't know if it's hulk hate, carver hate, or just flash luv, but the discussion has gone way overboard. h1 has been the butt of a 1000 jokes for citing much of what i've seen here. we really do need some form of ruling for flash. or he needs to be removed from the tier system and elevated WELL beyond guys like thanos. because this hulk would beat the sh!t out of thanos, so flash would end thanos in...less than an instant?
methinks this has been carried on way too far, but i'm not sure how it should be governed. i just know the flash portrayed in this thread is a NOT the flash we see every time we open a flash comic. it's more like the flash we see when we open a cbr thread.
You're looking at this in all the wrong perspective. You're literally trying to make sense to something not real.
In this kind of medium when a characters been around for 50+ yrs, entertainment is what comes first. Everything else is secondary.
Why do i say this? Is because if a character fights and operates to there utmost potential, then there wouldn't be a story.
- Characters like Flash would never get tagged by anyone slower than him.
- Superman would just stay in space and laser all criminals.
- Galactus would have created a machine with an with the ability to harness the Big Bang and feeds himself so he would never be hungry again.
-Darksed would have just stay on Apokalips and Omega Beams everyone of his enemies and erase them forever.
-Reed would have created a cure for all known diseases already.
See where am going with this. Is not that we the readers, or the characters are moron, it's just that you as the reader needs to understand that story telling takes place before reality and realism can take effect.
That's why Flash doesn't speed blitz everyone of his enemies.
The rules are they fight to the best of their shown abilities.
Tiers are just fan-created terminologies to try to make sense of match ups, in the end they aren't canon, especially in cross-company forum fights. Let's not give too much importance to fan-created system, that's how things lead to issues that are hard to mentally reconcile (like the fact that Flash could wreck Thanos easily, as you mention).
E.G: (And just using the most popular names as an example in this case): There may be an understood rule (written or unwritten) that Thor and Surfer are to be shown as peers, but they also exist within the same company. But someone like Superman has absolutely no relation to them at all and thus there is no written or unwritten rule that Superman should be regarded as no higher than them, even if there were feats were to say otherwise.
In a comic, The Flash, Superman, and any other speedster generally ARE morons.
The difference between Flash or Supes vs any street leveler in speed is orders upon orders greater than the difference between a person and a Slug, even Usain Bolt vs a Slug. Yet they can still present a threat in a comic.
That's the equivalent of the below scenario:
If you or I were fighting a slug in real life, but the slug was known to be extremely dangerous (say it could spew acid), you'd still have to be an absolute moron to get hit by it. And you wouldn't get hit by it because you can casually side step it before it does anything.
Since The Flash and Superman are indeed not morons in-character (they are geniuses even), their moronic behavior in comics does not transfer over to a forum setting where we aren't writing stories and setting plot, but simply discussing fight potentials at a character's best.
Originally posted by leonidasThat's why we have the PIS and Full Capacity rules. The PIS rule specifically talks about flash. It mentions that Flash doesn't just clock his enemies out in the first instant IN A COMIC but in a forum it's a viable option. Also the Full Capacity rule state that characters fight to the best of their ability AS SHOWN BEFORE. The key is: AS SHOWN BEFORE. That means it has to be shown in a comic (we can't make up stuff). Character that have the ability to fight smart and has been shown to fight smart then they will do so in a forum.
problem is this: if we assume flash has all of these abilities (recall, i'm a huge flash fan, have used various versions of flash in tourneys etc..) then the character is either effectively a moron, or we, as readers, are assumed ot be morons. there is really no middle ground.i believe 100% that in a comic, flash couldn't do jacksh!t to this hulk. he'd struggle mightily with a REGULAR hulk, forget THIS ultimate version of hulk.
but, when you look at all his feats collectively, well, it's asinine. truly. so, where do you draw the line. FOR FUN, hulk and betty were devastating a an entire planet, effortlessly. a hulk, much, much, MUCH lower than this level had nearly every hero in marvel sh!tting themselves. and yet, somehow, it's expected that flash beats him. easily? that....doesn't work for me. at all. the implications are ludicrous. it'd be better if everyone just said flash was the most powerful hero ever created and moved on. do we tier characters based on forum potential, or in-book performances? i always thought it was based on in-book stuff? i acknowledge some of his in-book stuff IS crazy. so is that the norm?
i think we either need to remove flash from forum battles, or agree to find some sort of average for him, because some of the conclusions that are being drawn are......100% h1. the flash discussed here would utterly, 100% of the time, crush superman. in an attosecond (superman has no attosecond showings) flash pushes superman's brain out by turning intangible. done and done.
he does the same to odin. with infinite mass, he could LITERALLY punch galactus out, who was briefly ko'd by nothing more than a headbutt from odin. and it's clear flash can hit far, far, FAR harder than odin, physically.
i really don't know if it's hulk hate, carver hate, or just flash luv, but the discussion has gone way overboard. h1 has been the butt of a 1000 jokes for citing much of what i've seen here. we really do need some form of ruling for flash. or he needs to be removed from the tier system and elevated WELL beyond guys like thanos. because this hulk would beat the sh!t out of thanos, so flash would end thanos in...less than an instant?
methinks this has been carried on way too far, but i'm not sure how it should be governed. i just know the flash portrayed in this thread is a NOT the flash we see every time we open a flash comic. it's more like the flash we see when we open a cbr thread.
Lastly, the reason why Flash doesn't instantly beat all of his enemies in a comic in a nanosecond is because it would be boring. Writer's ignore a character's abilities to have a story. For example, Spider-Man dodges bullets like a day job. Hell, he cracks jokes while weaving in and out of the bullets. It is very effortless for him to dodge bullets and even lasers. I never seen him get hit with a bullet or a laser or even lightning. Yet when he fights a stronger but slower than a bullet character he always manages to get hit at least once. This is a contradiction. Obviously, the writer is ignoring both Spidey's speed and most importantly, his spider sense for the sake of the plot. Otherwise, it would be boring for the story.
In a forum, there is no story that ignores a character's always on abilities. That's why forum fights are different than comic ones.
The tier system is fan created to be a general rule of thumb. It alone doesn't prove who beats who.
Originally posted by carver9
Seeing a bunch of procrastinators. We don't debate powerset here. I'm literally pointing to the Surfer vs Superman thread. The thread was derailed for pages insulting people because they used Surfer in an OOC fashion. It's sad. The picking and choosing done all of the time. At least be consistent.
Originally posted by carver9
Seeing a bunch of procrastinators. We don't debate powerset here. I'm literally pointing to the Surfer vs Superman thread. The thread was derailed for pages insulting people because they used Surfer in an OOC fashion. It's sad. The picking and choosing done all of the time. At least be consistent.
Trolling isn't nice, you know.