Originally posted by FreshestSliceDooku: "And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness. A black hole of the Force."
No, you're just making yourself look hella foolish for literally no reason. Sidious wasn't a black hole in the force in any shape our form.
Again: that is literally how Dooku perceived Palpatine through the eyes of the force itself... And once more, the entire scene was premised with this narrative:
"Now the scene below subtly altered, though to the physical eye there was no change. Powered by the dark side, Dooku's perception took the measure of those below him with exhilarating precision."
Writing that off as simple hyperbole is "hella foolish", imo.
The unwarranted bashing is cute, though. 👆
Originally posted by FreshestSliceUm, my 'opinion' is based on exactly what we were told Dooku saw/sensed from Palpatine. Deflect/bash all you want, but that IS how Dooku("with exhilarating precision") perceived Palpatine in the force.
That's great. What you just repeated again based off of not just your opinion, but your opinion of an opinion. Too bad it's fact Nihilus was a black hole and Palpatine wasn't.
And lets please try not to act like Dooku is just some random feeb whose word on force-related matters is subject to question/doubt... Especially when we're dealing with a force-related matter that he personally sensed.
Originally posted by Galan007
Um, my 'opinion' is based on exactly what we were told Dooku saw/sensed from Palpatine. Deflect/bash all you want, but that IS how Dooku("with exhilarating precision") perceived Palpatine in the force.
When I use the exact words "I'll finish it in no time," that is not meant literally. Whatever I'm attempting will still take 'some' time. I just mean it won't take long.
Originally posted by Galan007
Yes. And describing a character's position in the force "with exhilarating precision" =/= simple hyperbole, imo.
Uh, that's still hyperbole. Saying "with exhilarating precision" like they're some kind of magic words doesn't change that.
Originally posted by Galan007
And lets please try not to act like Dooku is just some random feeb whose word on force-related matters is subject to question/doubt... Especially when we're dealing with a force-related matter that he personally sensed.
Beg your pardon but EVERYONE'S word is subject to question/doubt to some degree. Even if said person is highly knowledgeable on a subject they are not omniscient and thus fallible.
Anyway, Bultar Swan definitely belongs on the "most incorruptible" list. Not only did she refuse to take a life until absolutely forced to, she was willing to show mercy to Darth Vader when he surrendered despite everything he had done.
Originally posted by Galan007At all?
I never suggested that Palpatine and Nihilus were similar characters. At all.
Brah I don't think you're understanding the point it is you are making.
You said Nihilus being described as a wound in the Force "isn't much different" (or rather similar) to Palpatine being described as a black hole.
A wound in the Force is a dead spot where the Living Force doesn't exist, therefore by your logic this is "not much different" from what Dooku is describing Palpatine to be, despite their being zero indication of that being the case. That or you're saying Sidious' nature as an deeply powerful dark sider is all Nihilus is (which contradicts other sources) either way you are undoubtedly stating them to be similar.
So would you like to revise your stance or what?
P.S. The words "black hole" have never actually been used to describe Nihilus, so really I should be asking you to prove it refers to remotely the same concept first. 😬
Originally posted by Emperordmb
👆 Bultar Swan is underrated, she's on the level just below ROTS Kenobi in all-out combat. Given both of their backgrounds it only makes sense for her to be near his level, rather than far from it.
Is there supposed to be a point to this?
You do realise this thread has nothing to do with "all out combat" or "levels" don't you? It's about who is least susceptible to corruption and Bultar is definitely one of those individuals.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
👆 Bultar Swan is underrated,
That is true.
Originally posted by Galan007
Dooku: "And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness. A black hole of the Force."Again: that is literally how Dooku perceived Palpatine through the eyes of the force itself... And once more, the entire scene was premised with this narrative:
"Now the scene below subtly altered, though to the physical eye there was no change. Powered by the dark side, Dooku's perception took the measure of those below him with exhilarating precision."Writing that off as simple hyperbole is "hella foolish", imo.
The unwarranted bashing is cute, though. 👆
Lol @ thinking that's being literal.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
A wound in the Force is a dead spot where the Living Force doesn't exist,
Such things don't exist. The Force is life, so life cannot exist without the Force. This concept is addressed and explained in the novel "Traitor". Beings who have been stripped of the Force, like Meetra, and even parties who don't appear to exist within the Force, like the Yuuzhan Vong, are not exceptions to this rule.
Just like light waves have numerous frequencies, most of which the human eye cannot detect, the Force exists on many different levels. But it's omnipresent. It cannot be ruptured by pain or death; rather, these cancerous things are of the dark side, as is Nihilus.
Originally posted by chilled monkey👆
When I use the exact words "I'll finish it in no time," that is not meant literally. Whatever I'm attempting will still take 'some' time. I just mean it won't take long.Uh, that's still hyperbole. Saying "with exhilarating precision" like they're some kind of magic words doesn't change that.
Beg your pardon but EVERYONE'S word is subject to question/doubt to some degree. Even if said person is highly knowledgeable on a subject they are not omniscient and thus fallible.
Originally posted by NewGuy01Exactly, a wound in the Force is a place where there is no life, because of an absence of living Force energy.
Such things don't exist. The Force is life, so life cannot exist without the Force. This concept is addressed and explained in the novel "Traitor". Beings who have been stripped of the Force, like Meetra, and even parties who don't appear to exist within the Force, like the Yuuzhan Vong, are not exceptions to this rule.Just like light waves have numerous frequencies, most of which the human eye cannot detect, the Force exists on many different levels. But it's omnipresent. It cannot be ruptured by pain or death; rather, these cancerous things are of the dark side, as is Nihilus.
This is why worlds like Nathema and Ziost are completely lifeless to the point of being devoid of color, why Nihilus' wound literally devoured his living body (and arguably his mind), why when Kreia drains the Jedi Masters they are described as "worse than lifeless [...] like an absence in the Force" and why she and the other masters see in the Exile the literal death of the Force.
But yes, the Force exists on multiple frequencies, namely also as cosmic Force energy (the omnipresent aspect that binds everything together) which presumably remains even when living Force energy is no longer present. Cosmic energy can also be of the dark side, and is very likely the "frequency" through which the echoes/disturbances created by wounds are transmitted.
The Living Force doesn't appear to be omnipresent however as it's sustained by life and therefore can be ruptured by death, the Cosmic Force however is, though powers that rend space and time arguably rupture it. At least that's my understanding of it.
On the other hand writing off Nihilus as just a dark side cancer really doesn't do much or anything to explain his unique characteristics (that a black hole like Sheev doesn't possess), and the nature of wounds as it appears to KOTOR II and indeed in subsequent TOR content.
P.S. I can understand how Vong can be part of the Living Force but perhaps in a similar way to ysalamiri supress it's influence (not well versed tbh) but they are never described as or in a similar manner to wounds per my knowledge.
As far as the Exile is concerned, I think it's a question of extremities, the Exile appear to have her ability to hear the Force dulled but not totally removed, whereas the Jedi Masters were entirely extricated from its living aspect through the same power/process.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Exactly, a wound in the Force is a place where there is no life, because of an absence of living Force energy.
Except, that clearly isn't the case. Wounds in the Force--as they're described by Kreia--actually echo pain and suffering, and are strong in the dark side of the Force. Neither of these characteristics befit an absence in the Force.
This is why worlds like Nathema and Ziost are completely lifeless to the point of being devoid of color,
Nathema and Ziost are how they are because Vitiate's ritual supposedly rips the force itself from these worlds. (Which also seems kinda baloney-ish, but I'll save that for later.)
Regardless, Meetra pretty much confirmed in Revan that Malachor wasn't just a lesser Nathema, but rather it's exact opposite.
why Nihilus' wound literally devoured his living body (and arguably his mind),
1.) The dark side corrodes the mind and body.
2.) Nihilus, despite how ****ed up he is, is still alive.
and why she and the other masters see in the Exile the literal death of the Force.
Well, the real answer is "because KOTOR II really made no goddamn sense". My best rationalization for it is simply that the masters viewed the new draining techniques of the Sith as cancerous to the Force. That, or, they were simply wrong.
After all, if Meetra were truly a gap in the living force, she would not be alive. Period. No exceptions.
But yes, the Force exists on multiple frequencies, namely also as cosmic Force energy (the omnipresent aspect that binds everything together) which presumably remains even when living Force energy is no longer present.
No, I'm referring to the Living Force exclusively. The Living Force is what binds the living to the cosmic Force; it cannot be accessed directly. The Vong existed on a different frequency on the Living Force, as did the Force-stripped Jacen in "Traitor".
On the other hand writing off Nihilus as just a dark side cancer really doesn't do much or anything to explain his unique characteristics and the nature of wounds as it appears to KOTOR II and indeed in subsequent TOR content.
The only truly unique characteristic I can think of about Nihilus is his hunger...