Originally posted by BeniboyblingBrah, I think you entirely misunderstood me, and should have asked for clarification if you had questions, instead coming up with these wild conclusions yourself.
At all?Brah I don't think you're understanding the point it is you are making.
You said Nihilus being described as a wound in the Force "isn't much different" (or rather similar) to Palpatine being described as a black hole.
A wound in the Force is a dead spot where the Living Force doesn't exist, therefore by your logic this is "not much different" from what Dooku is describing Palpatine to be, despite their being zero indication of that being the case. That or you're saying Sidious' nature as an deeply powerful dark sider is all Nihilus is (which contradicts other sources) either way you are undoubtedly stating them to be similar.
So would you like to revise your stance or what?
P.S. The words "black hole" have never actually been used to describe Nihilus, so really I should be asking you to prove it refers to remotely the same concept first. 😬
I never compared Palpatine and Nihilus as characters. Ever. I merely pointed out that using the "Nihilus was a wound in the force" argument on his behalf, isn't much different than using the "Palpatine was a black hole in the force" argument on his behalf. Why? Because both statements merely give us metaphysical descriptions of said characters, when viewed entirely from an in-force perspective.
Point being: metaphysical descriptions of a character do not necessarily supersede that character's personal actions(which are what matter most in the spirit of this thread.)
Hopefully that was clearer for you. 🙂
Ah my bad, sorry for coming off as aggressive. I was given the wrong impression by you're claim Dooku was being literal, I mean shouldn't by this logic it be a metaphorical description, for both of them?
Originally posted by FreshestSlice"Them" was the dead Council, the player is told they are an absence in the Force by the game when you investigate their bodies.
Them being an absence of the Force is something that the Council said. The concept itself exists only in KotOR II anyway.
And Ziost and Nathema are absences in the Force too.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
"Them" was the dead Council, the player is told they are an absence in the Force by the game when you investigate their bodies.And Ziost and Nathema are absences in the Force too.
Originally posted by BeniboyblingBoth statements represent in-force/metaphysical vernacular that was used to describe what was saw/sensed/felt from Nihilus and Palpatine respectively.
Ah my bad, sorry for coming off as aggressive. I was given the wrong impression by you're claim Dooku was being literal, I mean shouldn't by this logic it be a metaphorical description, for both of them?
Perhaps my point wasn't clear enough from the get-go. Hopefully it's clearer now..?
Dooku's presentation of Palpatine was symbolic and meant to represent an awe for Palpatine's power.
Nihilus is very different in the sense that he was an anomaly.
"There is no strength in the hunger he possesses… and the will behind his power is a primal thing. And it devours him as he devours others—his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. He is already dead, it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls."
"He cares nothing for the Sith or its teachings… or the Jedi. And when the Jedi are dead, he will feed on the galaxy, the Republic, and eventually, consume the Sith as well."
Originally posted by FreshestSliceThe Council observed as much when she was still severed from the Force, by the time the she encounters Visas she'd largely regained her connection.
Also true, but the Council speak on it as well after the trial, as well as when you meet them. The games conflicted in this note. Visas says she can since the Exile, but the Council says they cannot, and so on.
Originally posted by Galan007Hmm, I'd still say being described with similar vernacular would imply similarity, at least "metaphysically."
Both statements represent in-force/metaphysical vernacular that was used to describe what was saw/sensed/felt from Nihilus and Palpatine respectively.Perhaps my point wasn't clear enough from the get-go. Hopefully it's clearer now..?
Which presents an issue IMO, unless you take the descriptions to just be metaphor.
Originally posted by NewGuy01An absence in the living Force. Echoes of pain and suffering are not living, they are echoes of past events and would therefore fall under the cosmic Force, much like Rey was able to feel echoes of the past from an inanimate, lifeless object.
Except, that clearly isn't the case. Wounds in the Force--as they're described by Kreia--actually echo pain and suffering, and are strong in the dark side of the Force. Neither of these characteristics befit an absence in the Force.
Which can again be of the dark side, like the dark side shroud the Sith used to cloud the Jedi Order.
Nathema and Ziost are how they are because Vitiate's ritual supposedly rips the force itself from these worlds. (Which also seems kinda baloney-ish, but I'll save that for later.)Which supports the notion that the living Force can be removed for places entirely.
Regardless, Meetra pretty much confirmed in Revan that Malachor wasn't just a lesser Nathema, but rather it's exact opposite.Malachor is different to Nathema & Ziost though, the Force wasn't forcibly stripped from it, just a place were a lot of death happened, which probably didn't have the same extreme effects.
The description of Malachor V suggests that while it has a wound in the Force at his epicenter, it remains a planet strong in the dark side that feeds off the echoes pain and suffering created by the wound.
1.) The dark side corrodes the mind and body.1) It did more then corrode his mind and body, it consumed it entirely. And yet despite being more powerful, Palpatine is less corroded.2.) Nihilus, despite how ****ed up he is, is still alive.
2) His living body had perished and Kreia describes him as "already dead", suggesting than eventually he'd cease to exist entirely. That is not how typical dark side corruption works.
My best rationalization for it is simply that the masters viewed the new draining techniques of the Sith as cancerous to the Force. That, or, they were simply wrong.That would be possible if Kreia, whose outlook on the Force was pretty neutral, viewed Meetra as a place where the Force "might die" as well.
The dead Jedi Masters are also objectively described by the game as absences.
After all, if Meetra were truly a gap in the living force, she would not be alive. Period. No exceptions.The wound is inside her, Meetra is not the wound, but it stands to reason that if she fed it she would eventually be destroyed like Nihilus.
And if you liken the wound to a black hole, the Exile's life energy could exist in the vicinity/beyond the event horizon, and if you interpret wound literally, its something that damages but doesn't necessarily destroy.
No, I'm referring to the Living Force exclusively. The Living Force is what binds the living to the cosmic Force; it cannot be accessed directly. The Vong existed on a different frequency on the Living Force, as did the Force-stripped Jacen in "Traitor".OK, and that makes sense.
But again none of them were actually referred to as wounds, so there is no proof a wound in the Force exists on one of these "frequencies."
The only truly unique characteristic I can think of about Nihilus is his hunger...Which is itself bizarre, unless you acknowledge Nihilus requires the living Force to 'live', so would constantly be driven to devour living things.
Originally posted by AstnerNihilus' ability to consume the force was never questioned... Nor was his status as an anomaly/wound in the force.
Nihilus is very different in the sense that he was an anomaly."There is no strength in the hunger he possesses... and the will behind his power is a primal thing. And it devours him as he devours others--his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. He is already dead, it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls."
"He cares nothing for the Sith or its teachings... or the Jedi. And when the Jedi are dead, he will feed on the galaxy, the Republic, and eventually, consume the Sith as well."
Nothing pertaining to Nihilus was put into question, actually. 👆
Originally posted by BeniboyblingIt still doesn't seem that you understand my point. mmm
Hmm, I'd still say being described with similar vernacular would imply similarity, at least "metaphysically."Which presents an issue IMO, unless you take the descriptions to just be metaphor.
The statements are only similar in the sense that they are both in-force, metaphysical descriptions of the power/darkness/energy/juju that was sensed from Nihilus and Palpatine respectively. ie. Nihilus was described as a wound in the force; Palpatine was described as a black hole in the force. Again: both are just metaphysical descriptions of their status within the force itself. That is where the 'similarity' I mentioned ends: at the vernacular used in those specific statements.
Once more: I am not, and never was, comparing these characters directly, so there's no need to continue fixating on that. I really can't break it down any better/further than that.
Originally posted by Astner
Dooku's presentation of Palpatine was symbolic and meant to represent an awe for Palpatine's power.Nihilus is very different in the sense that he was an anomaly.
"There is no strength in the hunger he possesses… and the will behind his power is a primal thing. And it devours him as he devours others—his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. He is already dead, it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls."
"He cares nothing for the Sith or its teachings… or the Jedi. And when the Jedi are dead, he will feed on the galaxy, the Republic, and eventually, consume the Sith as well."
👆
Nihilus being a wound was an actual thing that changed his nature. Palpatine being a "black hole" was a ****ing metaphor.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Also true, but the Council speak on it as well after the trial, as well as when you meet them. The games conflicted in this note. Visas says she can since the Exile, but the Council says they cannot, and so on.
Well Visas is force bonded to the Exile.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Have you never seen anything about TOR ever?
Played TOR 1 a long time ago.
All I rememeber about it, is the main character has no memory of his past, and ends up being an evil sith lord in his old life, and Malaks boss.
You can go dark side or light side thanks to his "clean slate" status, e.g. a guy who forgot everything about his life, effectively making him a new character.
That, and a really bad racing mini game. And being able to plant car bombs..
Originally posted by NephthysYou realize that Nihilus being described as a wound in the force is also a "****ing metaphor" which was used to describe his essential nature as a character on a metaphysical level, correct?
Nihilus being a wound was an actual thing that changed his nature. Palpatine being a "black hole" was a ****ing metaphor.
Your personal perception of the character is the only reason you'd think otherwise, but that's all subjective.
It is.
Nihilus' essential nature as a character(his insatiable hunger) is what made Visas view him as a wound in the force--it's not as if she saw some kind of literal tear in the force itself before making said statement. It was a metaphysical/metaphorical description pertaining to Nihilus' status within the force... Not unlike Dooku's statement, which likened Palaptine to a black hole when viewed from a metaphysical/in-force perspective, but I digress.
Point being: you may believe Visas was being literal. That's fine. However, her comment still referred to Nihilus on a metaphysical/metaphorical level. Yes.