I did.
That's why I don't have an issue with Nihilus' status. All I am saying is that the specific comment from Visas that is being discussed here, was spoken from a metaphysical/metaphorical POV. Again: she didn't actually see a physical rip/tear/gape/wound/cut/hole in the force itself when that statement was made--she based it on his essential nature as a character--his hunger.
Originally posted by Galan007No, I'm pretty sure Nihilus being described as a wound in the Force is literally describing what he is and how his powers work. Nihilus, like the Exile, has essentially no power over the Force in of himself. He leeches the power of others to strengthen his own command over it. The Exile being a wound in the Force is an in-universe explanation for RPG mechanics like getting experience and leveling up. Nihilus' power is similar; he gets stronger when he consumes life, and the longer he goes without feeding the weaker he gets.
I did.That's why I don't have an issue with Nihilus' status. All I am saying is that the specific comment from Visas that is being discussed here, was spoken from a metaphysical/metaphorical POV. Again: she didn't actually see a physical rip/tear/gape/wound/cut/hole in the force itself when that statement was made--she based it on his essential nature as a character--his hunger.
Compare to Sidious, who is never indicated to be particularly unique in how he uses the Force (save that his command of it is monstrous, of course) like Nihilus does. That's what makes the statement about Sidious from Dark Rendezvous and the one about Nihilus in Kotor 2 different. Dooku was describing how he perceived Sidious, whereas Visas and Kreia described Nihilus (and the Exile) as he actually was. When Sidious is called a "black hole in the Force" it's like an adjective, meant to hype up his power over the Dark Side. When Nihilus is called a "wound in the Force", it's like a noun. That isn't a word used to describe what Nihilus is, it's just what Nihilus is.
I don't necessarily disagree with you(again, I have no issue with the statement about Nihilus being taken literally.)
Where my opinion differs(slightly) is in the fact that Visas did use the aforementioned phrase descriptively:
"He is a wound in the Force, more presence than flesh, and in his wake life dies... Sacrificing itself to his hunger."
ie. "wound in the force" was used to help describe Nihilus' insatiable hunger, on a metaphysical level.
Originally posted by FreshestSliceWell the way the Masters describe her is through non-specific metaphor, I don't think it can be claimed that they couldn't sense anything full stop i.e. she could be right behind them and they'd feel nothing. They felt her as an absence, others might see her in a different way/with a different perspective.
Meetra after become unsevered until the game ends, and others can still sense her. Maybe it's just a dumb plot point, and even on Dantooine, it's stated she hasn't changed at all. Meetra used the Force through her friends and mentor.
Not sure anyone ever felt her as just a normal Force user tho.
Originally posted by Galan007Well actually the way wounds are described suggests yes they can be felt quite distinctly as literal absences, and seeing as Visas sees through the Force, Nihilus would presumably appear as a big black hole to her in a very literal/physical way. Just my opinion though.
I did.That's why I don't have an issue with Nihilus' status. All I am saying is that the specific comment from Visas that is being discussed here, was spoken from a metaphysical/metaphorical POV. Again: she didn't actually see a physical rip/tear/gape/wound/cut/hole in the force itself when that statement was made--she based it on his essential nature as a character--his hunger.
Originally posted by BeniboyblingThat very well may have been how she literally perceived Nihilus at the metaphysical level. 👆
Not sure anyone ever felt her as just a normal Force user tho.Well actually the way wounds are described suggests yes they can be felt as literal absences, and seeing as Visas sees through the Force, Nihilus would presumably appear as a big black hole to her in a very literal/physical way. Just my opinion though.
Same coin, I believe Dooku literally perceived Palpatine as he was described as well(metaphysically, of course):
"Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness. A black hole of the Force."
That, too, is just my opinion, however.
I believe I see what you're saying, but I think the issue is people are latching on to the perceived indication on your part of a similarity between Nihilus' and Palpatine's description as black holes/wounds, which would suggest they are metaphysically similar.
Whereas if I understand it correctly, your argument is that the are similar only in the use metaphysical vernacular (or rather abstract concepts), not necessarily the vernacular of a wound in the Force (specifically in terms of Palpatine).
Would that be an accurate assessment?
Originally posted by BeniboyblingMore or less. 👆
I believe I see what you're saying, but I think the issue is people are latching on to the perceived indication on your part of a similarity between Nihilus' and Palpatine's description as black holes/wounds, which would suggest they are metaphysically similar.Whereas if I understand it correctly, your argument is that the are similar only in the use metaphysical vernacular (or rather abstract concepts), not necessarily the vernacular of a wound in the Force (specifically in terms of Palpatine).
Would that be an accurate assessment?
On a semi-unrelated note, a black hole isn't a term that can be really applied to Nihilus anyway. A black hole is a place of extremely compacted mass/energy (a fitting description for Palpatine as a practical Force nexus), whereas Nihilus would be an absence of mass altogether.
In fact the word "black hole" is never used to describe Nihilus once.
Originally posted by Beniboyblingnone
On a semi-unrelated note, a black hole isn't a term that can be really applied to Nihilus anyway. A black hole is a place of extremely compacted mass/energy (a fitting description for Palpatine as a practical Force nexus), whereas Nihilus would be an absence of mass altogether.In fact the word "black hole" is never used to describe Nihilus once.
I feel like I confused you at some point, so Ima just drop the Palpatine/Nihilus thing and let the thread play out how it was originally intended. 👆
Originally posted by Galan007
I don't necessarily disagree with you(again, I have no issue with the statement about Nihilus being taken literally.)Where my opinion differs(slightly) is in the fact that Visas did use the aforementioned phrase descriptively:
"He is a wound in the Force, more presence than flesh, and in his wake life dies... Sacrificing itself to his hunger."ie. "wound in the force" was used to help describe Nihilus' insatiable hunger, on a metaphysical level.
Visas' statement is literal though. He is more presence than flesh, he doesn't have any, and in his wake life dies, people die in his mere presence.
Originally posted by NephthysYes, and those literal facts are why she described him as a metaphysical wound in the force. ie. her statement describes both the tangible(physical) and intangible(metaphysical) aspects of his essential nature. So far as I recall, she/they couldn't see a physical wound/rip in the force itself--hence it was a metaphysical assertion.
Visas' statement is literal though. He is more presence than flesh, he doesn't have any, and in his wake life dies, people die in his mere presence.
That's all I'm saying.
Whereas Dooku's description is merely flowery metaphor, just like Obi-Wan "was luminous, a transparent being, a window onto a sunlit meadow of the Force" and Anakin "was a storm cloud, flickering with dangerous lightning, building the rotation that threatens a tornado."
The only thing his statement means is "he's super darksidey".
And no, Visas could see that. Shes a miraluka, she can literally see a wound in the Force and has explicitly stated in Kotor 2 and Unseen, Unheard that Nihilus showed her what the universe looked like without the Force.
Originally posted by NephthysAnd in that utter darkness/absence of light, he was literally akin to a black hole.
The only thing his statement means is "he's super darksidey".
Hopefully you(or anyone else) didn't think I was of the opinion that Palpatine was actually a real black hole or w/e, and walked around absorbing shit... If so, there was a big miscommunication somewhere.
Originally posted by NephthysEven though I don't think it was explicitly stated, whether she could or could not really 'see' a physical rip in the force is irrelevant. Her 'wound' statement still describes the metaphysical aspect of Nihilus' character.
And no, Visas could see that. Shes a miraluka, she can literally see a wound in the Force and has explicitly stated in Kotor 2 and Unseen, Unheard that Nihilus showed her what the universe looked like without the Force.