That's a silly comparison though, because in the Tatooine Garage scene he was mourning the loss of his Mother, and regretting he couldn't save her. On Mustafar he was just lashing out at everyone he loves for absolutely no reason. Hows that the same exactly?
And again, you're ignoring his growth from Whiny Padawan in AOTC to the Knight and hero of the Republic he was at the start of ROTS.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
That's a silly comparison though, because in the Tatooine Garage scene he was mourning the loss of his Mother, and regretting he couldn't save her. On Mustafar he was just lashing out at everyone he loves for absolutely no reason. Hows that the same exactly?
It is not the only scene in AOTC that displays Anakin's behaviour.
In his second scene we see him in (meeting with Padme) he shows no respect for OB1, acts like a total pr!ck and thinks he knows best. He only thinks from his own desires. Quite Sithian already (or adolescent, but in Anakin's case that's basically the same in both movies).
When Padme is packing he's already displaying a very clear overconfidence in himself that he is a very great Jedi and that OB1 is overly critical. Ergo: who is OB1 to show him his place? Because, oh yes, he is so powerful that he has passed OB1's skills already!
Another remark by Anakin is that he thinks he is better at lightsaber fighting than Yoda. Clearly he indulges in his own power, which he likes very much.
After he leaves with Padme for Naboo, he almost turns into a normal person. I will disregard the horrible love scenes, that demonstrate what a manipulative psycho he is. After his nightmare he completely disregards any command he has been given, he acts solely on his own desires. Just like a Sith. No control!
And only after these scenes we get the garage scene. To me, his rage and anger make him drop the last little bit of restraint he has in his arrogance. He speaks from his heart here but it's very much in line with everything he's said or done (and will say or do - so that proves he really believes what he says... he proves it on Mustafar: different location, same kind of anger, same words). In the garage he lashes out (verbally, at this moment) at everyone: all the Tuskens and again OB1 (who basically symbolises all the Jedi).
(oh quanchi: the scenes I am describing are all factual, BTW)
After that he ignores even more commands and trusts his own insights/feelings/powers: going to Geonosis (admittedly Padme helps him do this, makes no sense, he ignores commands all the time, why wouldn't he now?), he gets caught and gets himself and Padme almost killed (which wouldn't have happened if he'd stayed put on Naboo).
And then he thinks he knows best again (because he thinks he's the greatest lightsaber fighter alive) and ignores OB1's strategy against Dooku, causing them to lose the entire fight. There you have it: a self-centred arrogant Jedi, who acts only on his own desires and causes more harm than good. (i.e. Darth Vader)
ROTS kinda repeats that whole routine, with the only difference that he is 'more powerful'. But character wise it's all identical.
Originally posted by queeqHe put his own life on the line to save Kenobi. At the end of the film he's trying to kill the same guy. You don't see the change ? Wtf. It can't be any clearer.
Where is it then?All you say is: he went from arrogant Jedi to full Sith Lord. I say: true, but he's behaviour and attitude is exactly the same (compare Tatooine garage scene to the Mustafar confrontation with Padme and OB1).
No, because his motivation is not on behalf of anyone else. Het pretends he does, maybe he even believes his own lies, but Anakin, factually, only acts for himself. He disobeys just about every order he gets from OB1. And when it comes to saving OB1 from Geonosis, he suddenly decides to be an obedient little boy? Hmmm... what's the secret agenda here? And when Padme talks him out of it, THEN he's suddenly eager to go???? I see what he's doing. It's either to impress Padme or he thinks OB1 can't do without him and only HE can save him.
And that whole stupid thing of suddenly, out of the blue, trying to save ONE clone when they're on a crucial mission to save the Chancellor, proves his terrible lack of judgement, his disobedience because what he thinks is best and, again, his own self-serving arrogance. This is exactly what we see when he meets Padme at the beginning of AOTC.
You see change? Wtf. It can't be more absent.
Originally posted by queeqGoing back and risking his life for Obi's is selflessness. He flat out told Palpatine his fate will be the same as ours. You're denying a fact to suit your silly I hate prequels agenda. Everyone but you sees change. Your denial is silly.
No, because his motivation is not on behalf of anyone else. Anakin only acts for himself. The whole stupid thing of trying to save ONE clone when they're on mission to save the Chancellor show his terrible lack of judgement and, again, his own self-serving arrogance.You see change? Wtf. It can't be more absent.
Originally posted by queeq
No, because his motivation is not on behalf of anyone else. Het pretends he does, maybe he even believes his own lies, but Anakin, factually, only acts for himself. He disobeys just about every order he gets from OB1. And when it comes to saving OB1 from Geonosis, he suddenly decides to be an obedient little boy? Hmmm... what's the secret agenda here? And when Padme talks him out of it, THEN he's suddenly eager to go???? I see what he's doing. It's either to impress Padme or he thinks OB1 can't do without him and only HE can save him.
Every single character in existence can look bad if you want them to. If you wanna say he only does good things because only he thinks he can help(because arrogance), why bother ignoring child Anakin who does the same thing? You can easily say he's trying to impress the Jedi/the cute girl/his mom.
You're reaching lol.
Originally posted by queeq
It is not the only scene in AOTC that displays Anakin's behaviour.In his second scene we see him in (meeting with Padme) he shows no respect for OB1, acts like a total pr!ck and thinks he knows best. He only thinks from his own desires. Quite Sithian already (or adolescent, but in Anakin's case that's basically the same in both movies).
When Padme is packing he's already displaying a very clear overconfidence in himself that he is a very great Jedi and that OB1 is overly critical. Ergo: who is OB1 to show him his place? Because, oh yes, he is so powerful that he has passed OB1's skills already!
Another remark by Anakin is that he thinks he is better at lightsaber fighting than Yoda. Clearly he indulges in his own power, which he likes very much.
After he leaves with Padme for Naboo, he almost turns into a normal person. I will disregard the horrible love scenes, that demonstrate what a manipulative psycho he is. After his nightmare he completely disregards any command he has been given, he acts solely on his own desires. Just like a Sith. No control!
And only after these scenes we get the garage scene. To me, his rage and anger make him drop the last little bit of restraint he has in his arrogance. He speaks from his heart here but it's very much in line with everything he's said or done (and will say or do - so that proves he really believes what he says... he proves it on Mustafar: different location, same kind of anger, same words). In the garage he lashes out (verbally, at this moment) at everyone: all the Tuskens and again OB1 (who basically symbolises all the Jedi).
(oh quanchi: the scenes I am describing are all factual, BTW)
After that he ignores even more commands and trusts his own insights/feelings/powers: going to Geonosis (admittedly Padme helps him do this, makes no sense, he ignores commands all the time, why wouldn't he now?), he gets caught and gets himself and Padme almost killed (which wouldn't have happened if he'd stayed put on Naboo).
And then he thinks he knows best again (because he thinks he's the greatest lightsaber fighter alive) and ignores OB1's strategy against Dooku, causing them to lose the entire fight. There you have it: a self-centred arrogant Jedi, who acts only on his own desires and causes more harm than good. (i.e. Darth Vader)
Wow. Way to make a whiny teenager identical to a Murdering Sith Lord.
Originally posted by queeq
ROTS kinda repeats that whole routine, with the only difference that he is 'more powerful'. But character wise it's all identical.
No, he was clearly a much more matured person at the beginning of ROTS, before he started being seduced to the Dark Side by Palpatine.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Every single character in existence can look bad if you want them to. If you wanna say he only does good things because only he thinks he can help(because arrogance), why bother ignoring child Anakin who does the same thing? You can easily say he's trying to impress the Jedi/the cute girl/his mom.You're reaching lol.
ROTJ Luke was one Evil douche bag. Murdering all of Jabba's people (including the dancers) just to save his friend. So just for his own selfish reasons.
Luke also had no character arc from EBS to ROTJ. He ignored Yoda and Ben in ESB to go save Han and Luke. And he still ignored them in ROTJ when they told him he has to kill Vader. And still risked everything to recklessly go save one person.
No arc there at all. Exactly the same personality. No change clearly.
Sure... all I hear is: I don't agree with you.
Not a single argument is countered. And saying Luke has no arc just downright silly.
But enjoy Anakin, the greatest SW character ever designed!
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Wow. Way to make a whiny teenager identical to a Murdering Sith Lord.
The whiny teenager was a murderer: he slaughtered an entire Tusken Village, the same way he slaughtered everyone in the Jedi Temple. If you want to disagree with me fine, but do watch the movies.
Originally posted by queeq
The whiny teenager was a murderer: he slaughtered an entire Tusken Village, the same way he slaughtered everyone in the Jedi Temple. If you want to disagree with me fine, but do watch the movies.
Why did he kill the Tusken? Why did he kill the Jedi?
You try to end this discussion by arguing actions but characters are about motivations. Your argument reeks bias 👇
Anakin was a shitty character IMO as well but he had an arc you just want to ignore because he killed before as a teenager. Anakin changed but using the same logic only focusing on a small aspect one can make the case Luke didn't change either. No one believes it but they are dishing your own medicine back at you.
Ah no... I think it's quite clear that the whiny Luke of ANH is gone in ROTJ, where he is calm and mature.
Originally posted by Bentley
Why did he kill the Tusken? Why did he kill the Jedi?You try to end this discussion by arguing actions but characters are about motivations. Your argument reeks bias 👇
Whatever. In drama motivations are made clear THROUGH actions. That's how writing for drama and movies work. Because we can only FILM actions and not motivations. Unless filming someone telling us what his motivations are, but that is generally considered bad and lazy writing.
And Anakin's motivations are clear: he killed the Tusken because he was angry. Anger leads to the Dark Side.
And he killed the Jedi well, because he was ordered to do so by an angry man, whose anger he shared.
He choked Padme in anger, he fought OB1 in anger. Anakin's motivations are always anger. Yoda said so himself, when he talked about Luke: "Much anger in him (i.e. Luke), much like his father (i.e. Anakin". Except Luke learned to control his anger and his fear, Anakin did not.
It all comes down to anger, hate, revenge, to things that lead to the Dark Side. And Anakin is not 'just' a guy. He's a Jedi and he claims to be the greatest ever. And it's quite clear that killing Tusken is not the Jedi way to go. QGJ even shouts from the netherworld... So there you have Anakin: taught to control his anger and his fear and he doesn't control it. He chooses anger.
The fact that you defend a slaughter is kind of disturbing.
A crime of passion is uh...still a crime lol. And I find you're indifference to the murder of an innocent woman to be far more disturbing.
By the way, Anakin struggling with being a Jedi is the point. From episode I to III, we're supposed to see him fail. Luke gave into fear when he ignored his training to go save his friends and Yoda told him in no uncertain terms that that would cause him to become an agent of evil. That was a trial for Luke and he failed. What is important is that he didn't fail again.
Anakin after killing Windu is a way worse person than the Anakin in the garage. The Anakin in the garage would grow up, learn to love a person, be excited about being a father, cared about his master and his friends. There was still hope for him. Vader killed children without any sort of feasible reason, choked the woman he loved, pushed away his friends("Stay here R2"😉 and tried to kill his mentor.
You cannot say actions define a character and then ignore so many of the actions because it suits what you want to be the case.
Look at that evil mother ******.
So the guy has one minute of kindness. There is footage of Hitler playing with his dog on the terrace of his castle, having fun with friends and Eva Braun... that didn't make him less evil.
And I never showed any indifference to the murder of an innocent woman. I wasn't condoning the Tusken's actions. That is not even the question. The question is if a Jedi should use murder as a tool of revenge. Or use revenge at all. A Jedi does not, Anakin knew that. It's like the famous Spidermanquote: "With great power, comes great responsibility." And Anakin shows very little of that.
And it's mere semantics to discuss which sin is worse . As I pointed out, there is a pattern to Anakin's behaviour. It's in his character to be power hungry, self centred, angry. He shows it when they meet Padme in Coruscant, he does by leaving Naboo, by slaughtering Tuskens (I would argue that Tusken children are to be considered as innocent as the Jedi kids), by screwing up the fight with Dooku, by decapitating Dooku, by marrying Padme, by killing Mace, by slaughtering the Jedi in the temple etc etc... it's all the same thing.
Originally posted by queeq
So the guy has one minute of kindness. There is footage of Hitler playing with his dog on the terrace of his castle, having fun with friends and Eva Braun... that didn't make him less evil.And I never showed any indifference to the murder of an innocent woman. I wasn't condoning the Tusken's actions. That is not even the question. The question is if a Jedi should use murder as a tool of revenge. Or use revenge at all. A Jedi does not, Anakin knew that. It's like the famous Spidermanquote: "With great power, comes great responsibility." And Anakin shows very little of that.
And it's mere semantics to discuss which sin is worse . As I pointed out, there is a pattern to Anakin's behaviour. It's in his character to be power hungry, self centred, angry. He shows it when they meet Padme in Coruscant, he does by leaving Naboo, by slaughtering Tuskens (I would argue that Tusken children are to be considered as innocent as the Jedi kids), by screwing up the fight with Dooku, by decapitating Dooku, by marrying Padme, by killing Mace, by slaughtering the Jedi in the temple etc etc... it's all the same thing.
😬
Okay. Forgetting the prequels entirely. Did Darth Vader get what he deserved in RotJ? Based solely on those 3 films, did he deserve what he got?