Look, the whole debate is about Anakin having a character arc. And you just showed you don't have any idea what a character arc is. I feel like I have wasted my time.
If one could attribute some kind of arc to Anakin in these two movies, it's no more than one need a single act. It's doesn't come close to an arc that should suffice for two movies.
But whatever, you don't want to listen. You like to insult. You don't know what a character arc is, you don't know how to debate either.
Well it does. Because we are left out of the loop why Anakin changed so much between TPM and AOTC. He is just 'suddenly' different.
Plus, Anakin doesn't do much in TPM. He's primarily passive. Everything relevant to the story that he 'did', happened by accident. So there was no purpose/reason/motivation behind his relevant actions (which is basically blowing up the droid control ship - he never intended to go into space, he never intended to crash in the ship and he never intended to blow up the generator).
If a protagonist has no motivations, and no actions to achieve his 'object of desire', there's not much of a protagonist. Definitely not in an adventure movie like this.
In AOTC we see that Anakin does want something. It's rather vague, but at least he wants something. He's still quite passive though in achieving his goals (he does all kinds of other stuff, but generally he gets sent off on some kind of errand by others).
And does Vader 'deserve' what happens in the OT? I dunno. Nobody deserves forgiveness. It is a gift given by others. We do see Vader trying to redeem himself. Before the PT the last scene in ROTJ always struck me as Vader regretting everything he has done. that he couldn't break free alone, that he NEEDED Luke to show him the way. But that he also knew it was never enough to undo what he had done, yet having his son look at him with a great caring, DESPITE of what he had done, was enough redemption for him.
The PT kinda made Anakin a cosmic superhero that was instantly given Force afterlife... To say someone deserved what he got by means of the details to his backstory that was invented much later, is a very hard question for me to answer.
I cannot answer such questions without taking the history the filmmaking itself into account. And from that POV the PT is quite the mystery: why did it turn out this way?
Originally posted by queeqIyo and you're the one who has been opposed by many other posters saying yes it is a character arc. It's plain as day. George would tell you the same as well and you'd just shake your head and say no George it isn't because he kills kids in both films. 😂
Look, the whole debate is about Anakin having a character arc. And you just showed you don't have any idea what a character arc is. I feel like I have wasted my time.If one could attribute some kind of arc to Anakin in these two movies, it's no more than one need a single act. It's doesn't come close to an arc that should suffice for two movies.
But whatever, you don't want to listen. You like to insult. You don't know what a character arc is, you don't know how to debate either.
Irony should have killed you with this post.
All you say is "Iyo". And then you claim 'many other posters' agree with you. Yet you have not given a single argument other than Anakin's titularity or his state of mind.
And, I'll say it once more, by trying to define 'character arc' you have shown you don't even know what it means. It's a quite well defined story concept, dude. So what are we debating?
And if it's JUST 'my opinion' (and BTW also that of many others, although that hardly qualifies as an argument, even bringing up George as someone who agrees with you is kinda lame - can't you have a substantiated opinion of your own? ), than you saying that Anakin does have an arc, is ALSO and OPINION. And, you know what: that's what we do here: discuss opinions. But you should DISCUSS it, not just say: "it's your opinion, it's your opinion..."
It just shows, again, you do not know how to debate.
Anakin does have an arc over the prequels tho...
he starts out as an innocent little boy in ep 1; very cheerful but also very aware of his surroundings
in ep 2 he's grown into an arrogant young man thats headstrong with anger issues
by the time we get to ep 3 he's a heroic man that has a very rigid code of ethics that is sometimes at odds with the jedi way
by mid ep 3 he's become a ruthless killer that started down the dark path because of love but ventured further down because of his lust for power instead
by the end of ep 3 he's a broken man because of his physical injuries and because he thinks he's killed the one person that he truly loved on top of his unborn child.
the constant theme for Anakin throughout the prequels was his love for those close to him, namely his mom and Padme; he loved her from the moment he saw her at Wattos shop and before that his mom was the only thing good in his life. His slave upbringing also gave him a deep rooted need for freedom that eventually evolves into his craving for power via death; had his mother not died he wouldn't have had reason to want more power but even then this was still mixed with the optimistic little boy that we saw in ep 1; he originally only wanted this power to save people that he loved..
so to recap Anakin goes from: optimistic young boy - arrogant teen - heroic adult - fallen soul - monster - conflicted villain - redeemed father in the span of the 6 films
Originally posted by queeqI have given examples of what changed in his mind. His entire philosophy changed from a Jedi to the Sith ideals. That's a huge character arc. We see him as a cocky, immature, and scared teen and the events that culminated in this philosophy change which demonstrates a character arc. If the guy who wrote it is saying yes it is and he created the story then you're just crying over sour milk. You want to say it's lame but it is only your subjective opinion when the story teller would say yeah you're wrong. You're free to say it sucks and dammit man he's killed children in both films but you're ignoring the rest of what clearly changed and trying to pain your own jaded views as the totality of the situation.
All you say is "Iyo". And then you claim 'many other posters' agree with you. Yet you have not given a single argument other than Anakin's titularity or his state of mind.And, I'll say it once more, by trying to define 'character arc' you have shown you don't even know what it means. It's a quite well defined story concept, dude. So what are we debating?
And if it's JUST 'my opinion' (and BTW also that of many others, although that hardly qualifies as an argument, even bringing up George as someone who agrees with you is kinda lame - can't you have a substantiated opinion of your own? ), than you saying that Anakin does have an arc, is ALSO and OPINION. And, you know what: that's what we do here: discuss opinions. But you should DISCUSS it, not just say: "it's your opinion, it's your opinion..."
It just shows, again, you do not know how to debate.
Ironic with the guy who can't refute the obvious. He became a Sith Lord in part three he didn't in part two. It's rather obvious and even George would say yeah you're wrong.
All titles. You use his killing to define his character.
Yet...
1. He kills the Tuskens (men women and children)
2. At the beginning of Ep3 he decapitates Dooku without much problem (where is this rigid code? he's a ruthless killer here, just like he was willing to ruthlessly kill Dooku on Geonosis, as well as his ruthless slaughtering of the Tusekn Village)
3. After his fall he ruthlessly kills Jedi (mane, women and children)
4. Finally he ruthlessly chokes Padme an attacks his mentor...
Adult Anakin was always ruthless. The only change I can see is him losing his restraint. But inside he is always this.
Compare for instance with Palpy. I suppose we can all agree Palpy was as evil at the beginning of TPM as he is at the end of ROTS of even at the end of ROTJ. Yet, when we meet him he seems (SEEMS!) like a friendly man who tries to stay within the boundaries of the law and to solve problems by talking. Yet... he is also Sidious.
In ROTS the cloaks drops and bingo: Palpy and Sidious is one and the same evil person. Lucas does a similar thing to Anakin: angry young man changes title from Jedi to Darth but essentially he's still the same guy.
Originally posted by queeqHe doesn't want to kill Dooku but gives in due to his anger and all the evil Dooku has caused. Hell, Windu was about to kill Palpatine but does that make him a Sith Lord ? **** no.
All titles. You use his killing to define his character.Yet...
1. He kills the Tuskens (men women and children)
2. At the beginning of Ep3 he decapitates Dooku without much problem (where is this rigid code? he's a ruthless killer here, just like he was willing to ruthlessly kill Dooku on Geonosis, as well as his ruthless slaughtering of the Tusekn Village)
3. After his fall he ruthlessly kills Jedi (mane, women and children)
4. Finally he ruthlessly chokes Padme an attacks his mentor...Adult Anakin was always ruthless. The only change I can see is him losing his restraint. But inside he is always this.
Compare for instance with Palpy. I suppose we can all agree Palpy was as evil at the beginning of TPM as he is at the end of ROTS of even at the end of ROTJ. Yet, when we meet him he seems (SEEMS!) like a friendly man who tries to stay within the boundaries of the law and to solve problems by talking. Yet... he is also Sidious.
In ROTS the cloaks drops and bingo: Palpy and Sidious is one and the same evil person. Lucas does a similar thing to Anakin: angry young man changes title from Jedi to Darth but essentially he's still the same guy.
1. His mother was taken and she died. He lost it. He was a younger teen with powers that made him someone to be feared. He went off. That doesn't make him a Sith Lord it just makes him an emotionally vulnerable and angry teen with powers he shouldn't have in that situation because he couldn't control his emotions.
2. Already covered the Dooku stuff.
3. Yes, he thought just as a Sith and saw in absolutes. He felt like Windu violated the Jedi principles and once he overreacted in the moment due to Palpatine dangling padmes fate in front of him. Once he did that he knew he went that far so he fully submitted and wanted to just save his wife. The road to hell is truly paved with good intentions.
4. He thought she betrayed him and she brought Kenobi there to kill him. He let her go. He was a nut job emotionally a basket case. He would have never force choked his wife as a Jedi but he was a broken Sith Lord controlled entirely by his fears.
Adult Anakin didn't always try to kill Jedi or force choke his wife. He was a lunatic and ruthless as a Sith Lord.
Originally posted by queeq1. He kills the Tuskens (men women and children)
Because they brutally tortured and killed his Mother. Stop acting like he just killed them because he was some mad ruthless killer, or for a greater evil plan (like in ROTS).
And again, have Tuskens ever done anything good? Like ever? Are there any Tusken Senators or Politicians or Activists?
The only thing we've ever seen them do is attack/kill people. Seriously he probably saved future lives by killing those Tusken "children."
Originally posted by queeq
2. At the beginning of Ep3 he decapitates Dooku without much problem (where is this rigid code? he's a ruthless killer here,
Actually it was made clear he did have a problem with that. It was only by Palpatine's goading that he killed him. I.e. his Character was changing under Palpatine's influence.
Originally posted by queeq
just like he was willing to ruthlessly kill Dooku on Geonosis,
Again due to Dooku having ordered the slaughter of countless Jedi. And yet by ROTS when he finally gets his chance he still clearly hesitates.
Originally posted by queeq
as well as his ruthless slaughtering of the Tusekn Village)
Repeating a point doesn't change the facts behind it.
Originally posted by queeq
3. After his fall he ruthlessly kills Jedi (mane, women and children)
4. Finally he ruthlessly chokes Padme an attacks his mentor...
Key part here? After his fall. After he had clearly changed as a person. Everyone here can see that change in him (even those who don't like the Prequels).
You know... you all sound like Anakin, too.
From the moment we meet adult Anakin he continues to blame everyone for his shortcomings. It's someone else's fault: OB1, the Tuskens, OB1, the Jedi, OB1, the Jedi... everyone's to blame, but Anakin.
Another character consistency in Anakin's character: he never takes responsibility. And after his fall, he never needs to take any responsibility because Sidious will do it for them.
And not "EVERYONE" thinks Anakin's such a changed man. Anakin's total lack of character development is a major gripe against this film. But in this forum for some reason I only meet up with the ones that like the PT. And like the 'arc' of Anakin.
Anakin is mostly passive or reactive. He's hardly active himself, working towards a goal. Not a good sign for a protagonist.