Star Wars TFA vs TPM

Originally posted by queeq
Whatever. In drama motivations are made clear THROUGH actions. That's how writing for drama and movies work. Because we can only FILM actions and not motivations. Unless filming someone telling us what his motivations are, but that is generally considered bad and lazy writing.

At no point I've said the Prequels aren't lazy at establishing their motivations. They did establish motivations though and your mistrust and indiference to their methods don't erase that fact.

Originally posted by queeq
And Anakin's motivations are clear: he killed the Tusken because he was angry. Anger leads to the Dark Side.

Anger leads... Thanks to point out there is a progression to it, that's a character arc that was stated clearly and in the open several times 👆

Originally posted by queeq
And he killed the Jedi well, because he was ordered to do so by an angry man, whose anger he shared..

When Anakin killed the tusken it wasn't under the promise of "fixing" things. It was an irrational act that he felt justified, from that feeling he started to build his secret reasons, but Anakin did not always believed Might made Right. Certainly not in AOTC.

Originally posted by Bentley
Anger leads... Thanks to point out there is a progression to it, that's a character arc that was stated clearly and in the open several times 👆

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. My argument is that when we meet adult Anakin is that he is already angry. From here on he doesn't change, only his status from 'Jedi' to 'Sith'. But that's just his title. His character is the same.

Originally posted by Bentley
When Anakin killed the tusken it wasn't under the promise of "fixing" things. It was an irrational act that he felt justified, from that feeling he started to build his secret reasons, but Anakin did not always believed Might made Right. Certainly not in AOTC.

Whatever the rational reason, it was ANGER that drove him to do it. And the inability (or lack of will? we don't know) to control it.

If I understand you correctly, killing Tusken children was an irrational act and killing Jedi children was a rational one... and that then is the arc? He goes from irrational to rational? That kinda goes against the whole Sith principle, where Sith only rely on their passion for strength... not rationality. And that is exactly what adult Anakin does, from the beginning of AOTC until the end of ROTS.

Originally posted by queeq
Okay, now we're getting somewhere. My argument is that when we meet adult Anakin is that he is already angry. From here on he doesn't change, only his status from 'Jedi' to 'Sith'. But that's just his title. His character is the same.

Whatever the rational reason, it was ANGER that drove him to do it. And the inability (or lack of will? we don't know) to control it.

If I understand you correctly, killing Tusken children was an irrational act and killing Jedi children was a rational one... and that then is the arc? He goes from irrational to rational? That kinda goes against the whole Sith principle, where Sith only rely on their passion for strength... not rationality. And that is exactly what adult Anakin does, from the beginning of AOTC until the end of ROTS.

Anakin was always prone to anger, that's why he became a powerful Sith. Remember, the Sith embrace their feelings to become more powerful, it's a conscious decision from them. They are fueled by fury, they use it. Anakin wasn't focusing his anger against the Tusken for a particular task, he was just angry.

Sith are shown to be terribly rational and cunning, they will manipulate emotions and tempt others into doing their biding. They burn with personal passion, but they are cold towards others, they lack empathy. I wouldn't say rationality isn't an important part of the equation for Sith as a whole. To become a Sith you have to rationally incorporate desire into your logical beliefs, if he did not want power enough, there is no justification for Anakin to kill kids.

Originally posted by Bentley
Anakin was always prone to anger, that's why he became a powerful Sith. Remember, the Sith embrace their feelings to become more powerful, it's a conscious decision from them. They are fueled by fury, they use it. Anakin wasn't focusing his anger against the Tusken for a particular task, he was just angry.

So Anakin goes from unconsciously doing Sith things to doing them consciously...

That I can see, but still an extremely feeble arc.

The interesting thing is that if one designs a protagonist you always have to figure out his 'object of desire', what does he really want.

If I look at adult Anakin I can see only one major thing he wants: power! Or at least, to be the greatest Jedi ever. He wants to be great and important. Yet... there's not a single act that he performs that would help him increase his power. Except maybe submitting to Sidious's teachings, but right after that he hears that Sidious doesn't know how to achieve what Anakin wants and he still obediently goes along with it. Sidious doesn't really teach him anything. So nowhere do we see Anakin doing things to achieve the power he craves for. No wonder there's no arc... there's no effort is obtaining his object of desire.

Originally posted by queeq
So Anakin goes from unconsciously doing Sith things to doing them consciously...

That I can see, but still an extremely feeble arc.

He went from reacting to pulling power from selfish actions willingly.

I think part of the problem with Anakin's growth is that he is destined to become the evil sidekick, hardly a satisfying end point.

Originally posted by queeq
The interesting thing is that if one designs a protagonist you always have to figure out his 'object of desire', what does he really want.

If I look at adult Anakin I can see only one major thing he wants: power! Or at least, to be the greatest Jedi ever. He wants to be great and important. Yet... there's not a single act that he performs that would help him increase his power. Except maybe submitting to Sidious's teachings, but right after that he hears that Sidious doesn't know how to achieve what Anakin wants and he still obediently goes along with it. Sidious doesn't really teach him anything. So nowhere do we see Anakin doing things to achieve the power he craves for. No wonder there's no arc... there's no effort is obtaining his object of desire.

Anakin wanted to become a hero, one of the Jedi that had a destiny bigger than living in a forsaken planet as slaves, he pretty much wanted to become Luke. He saw Jedi saving people, fixing problems and decided that being the greatest hero was his goal. Through the first and second movie he still hasn't figured that his childish ambition implies that Might makes Right, that the heroes are relevant because they have power to change things.

Enter the Tusken massacre. Anakin's power failed to save his mother and could only avenge her death. It was a total defeat for his ideal, heros just can't save everyone. Still, Anakin figures that he can still do his best and prove that he can change things, so he sticks with the Jedi and fights the good battle for the sake of the Republic. When Anakin gave to his anger he should've abandoned the Jedi order, but he felt he was needed to win the war, he settled for the smaller evil. The fact that he considered himself necessary is still a part of his messiah syndrome.

Anakin wanted one thing from the beginning: to solve everything. Then he went to believe that to achieve so he needed to bring order to the galaxy. The "smaller evil" for his goal was to allow the Emperor to control everything.

Originally posted by Flyattractor
[b]At least TPM was an orgional story were as TFA was just a reboot of ANH.
[/B]

👆

I still don't see how queeq can't tell the difference between his opinion and others disagreeing. Queeq your opinion is just your perspective so it will never be an objective fact. Hate Anakin's arc all you want but he did have an arc as multiple posters have tried to convey to you.

You haven't offered a single argument, all you say is that what I say is opinion. No one has shown what the arc was. I think the best I got was: in AOTC he was an arrogant Jedi and in ROTS he became a full blown Sith Lord.

The fact that he doesn't do things much differently seems to elude you.

But go and enjoy your beloved Anakin. You're entitled to.

We have explained what the arc was and why it wasn't what you claimed it was. You're just saying nuh uh at this point. At the beginning of the film Anakin risked his own life to save his friend but by the films end he felt Kenobi was his enemy. Becoming a Sith Lord is a huge character change. Was Anakin immature and arrogant; yes. Did he still want to be a hero; yes. Did he falter due to the circumstances of the film by being seduced by Palpatine; yes. Just evcause he was angry and immature doesn't mean he was some merciless Sith Lord just because he lashed out after his mothers death. Can't you see someone legitimately going nuts as a youth holding their own dying mother in their hands and that seriously traumatizing them ?

Does that make him a ruthless murderer ? Did that make him a Sith Lord on the spot ? Did he murder Jedi on the spot after he killed the sand people ?

Anakin is still immature when he pledges allegiance to Sidious:
1. First Sidious has to basically hold a banner to show he's a Sith, Anakin draws his lightsaber and does nothing
2. Then he turns him in, but claims the Jedi can't take him without him
3. He changes his mind, follows Mace (who he just sent over to Sidious) and cuts off his hands
4. Then he screams: "What have I done?"
5. He pleegden allegiance to Sidious to teach him to save Padme from death
6. Sidious says he can't do the one thing Anakin wants from him but still obeys his order to do what he has experience in: killing kids.

Whimsical, impulsive... NUTS. Nope, still no change. Not even from your list.

Yes, we see how clouded his thoughts were over the loss of Padme since he still wasn't over the loss of his mother. That's called a character arc. Anakin couldn't let it be and only reacted after Windu decided to say **** the principles of a Jedi because he tried killing a beaten opponent right in front of the I can't lose Padme head case. Becoming a Sith Lord and abandoning your ideals for the promise of denying death due to the power of the Sith way is exactly that. Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader. Anakin came back out in Rotj. both are character arcs. Anakin was an idiot but he played out an arc regardless of your opinion which is a level of self delusion rarely seen to this level.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, we see how clouded his thoughts were over the loss of Padme since he still wasn't over the loss of his mother. That's called a character arc.

Errr... not it's not. Clearly you don't know what you're talking about.

Now I understand why this debate takes so long... 😉

Obi-Wan vs Rey: I prefer rey because id like to pound her fine ass

Jar-Jar Binks vs Finn: Finn obviously.. Jar jar is a goof

Anakin (TPM) vs Poe: Lil Ani was annoying as ****, Poe by default

Darth Maul vs Kylo Ren: Maul is way cooler than Ren, better lightsaber design too as well as leagues better fight AND fightER

Qui-Gon Jinn vs Han Solo (TFA): Hans obviously, we spent 3 films getting to know him.

Queen Amidala vs General Leia (TFA): like her star-crossed lover, Amidala didn't get more interesting until the next ep.

R2D2 (TPM) vs BB-8: R2 fo life

Story vs Story: Honestly, I prefer TPMs story over TFAs...the Jedi/Sith/Force are the only reason I got sucked into Star Wars as a little kid in the first place; hearing about all of that in the OT growing up it was legendary to see the Force users in their prime...also its not a complete and utter ripoff of a previous film 🙂

No, but it still sucks. 😉

Originally posted by relentless1
also its not a complete and utter ripoff of a previous film 🙂

👆

It is. But a very entertaining one.

More like a semi-entertaining one.

The entertainment value of TFA depended too much on nostalgia Imo. Probably why it dropped so hard after a great OW in China. There was no nostalgia for Star Wars in China.

Dropped hard... you do know how much it made, I hope?

Quite a bit...

Originally posted by queeq
Errr... not it's not. Clearly you don't know what you're talking about.