Ozymandias vs. Winter Soldier (h2h)

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
We've been over this before, they were above human... they displayed super-human feats. Sure not always, but they do have some. Ozy treated them as if they were nothing.

Did you miss the part where Ozy was LITERALLY toying with them every single moment of that fight. He was hardly trying, and casually tooling them. I don't believe you re-watched the scene if you just described it as such.

In the Nightowl vs. Black Widow thread, most people here considered them somewhat similar in stats. BW was completely disadvantaged against WS. At least Night Owl and Comedian did better against Ozy.

WS was shown to be near Cap level and by feats Cap >>>> Ozy.

WS wins.

Only problem is, Cap, only using FA and WS, was not above Ozy. Let alone >>> that you implied. They were very much even, and even the vs. thread matching them was close in voting. As of OofU... Cap had even better feats that would put him above Ozy... but he wasn't there as of WS. If WS lost to Cap... and Ozy is near Cap as of the WS... WS also goes down.

Originally posted by FrothByte
In the Nightowl vs. Black Widow thread, most people here considered them somewhat similar in stats. BW was completely disadvantaged against WS. At least Night Owl and Comedian did better against Ozy.

Only Night Owl and Comedian are stronger and more durable than BW... Which would explain how they were able to last longer.

By feats Cap > Ozy and WS was able to fight Cap on more or less equal terms. thus by feats WS > Ozy.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Only Night Owl and Comedian are stronger and more durable than BW... Which would explain how they were able to last longer.

And just how do you prove that?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Only problem is, Cap, only using FA and WS, was not above Ozy. Let alone >>> that you implied. They were very much even, and even the vs. thread matching them was close in voting. As of OofU... Cap had even better feats that would put him above Ozy... but he wasn't there as of WS. If WS lost to Cap... and Ozy is near Cap as of the WS... WS also goes down.

The SS serum makes Cap be always at his peak physical stats. He doesn't get stronger or faster or more durable. He can get better in terms of skill and experience, but his physicality is always the same.

So AOU Cap is just as strong as First Avengers Cap.

Originally posted by Inhuman
WS was fighting Cap pretty evenly and in the CW trailer hes taking on Ironman. Both those foes are greater than Ozy.

WS takes the majority.

Originally posted by FrothByte
And just how do you prove that?

Huh? So you're saying you think they aren't stronger or more durable? I'm unclear what you're saying. Are you saying you think they are, you just can't quantify it by how much, and thus you can't determine things clearly. Or are you saying... they aren't stronger or more durable ?

Originally posted by FrothByte
The SS serum makes Cap be always at his peak physical stats. He doesn't get stronger or faster or more durable. He can get better in terms of skill and experience, but his physicality is always the same.

So AOU Cap is just as strong as First Avengers Cap.

This is incorrect as I've already shown. Technique and experience can 100% make you be able to lift more and run faster. That is what we are seeing with Cap's continued progression. He's getting stronger and faster because he has more experience more training.. better technique etc etc. Those things 100% improve your results. Cap from FA is not the same level Cap as in AOU.. you disagree?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Huh? So you're saying you think they aren't stronger or more durable? I'm unclear what you're saying. Are you saying you think they are, you just can't quantify it by how much, and thus you can't determine things clearly. Or are you saying... they aren't stronger or more durable ?

You said Night Owl and Comedian are more durable than Black Window. How exactly did you come up with that conclusion?

From them taking the hits they did throughout the movie... specifically when fighting Ozy. Put it this way, if BW fought Ozy, she would've gone down sooner than they did imo. Again though, how does WS win this fight. He's not better in any area than Ozy. Ozy is faster... more skilled.... just as durable... better reactions etc etc. He tools WS and laughs at him for even thinking he can step to Ozy.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I'd give a majority to Winter Soldier, though this would be a hard fight for both sides.

Based on what though? Ozy is better in virtually every single area that matters for a vs. match besides HF. What advantages does WS have here?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This is incorrect as I've already shown. Technique and experience can 100% make you be able to lift more and run faster. That is what we are seeing with Cap's continued progression. He's getting stronger and faster because he has more experience more training.. better technique etc etc. Those things 100% improve your results. Cap from FA is not the same level Cap as in AOU.. you disagree?

Cap from AOU certainly seems to be a better fighter (or at least a more impressive one) than TFA, but I disagree about him being faster or stronger. Though you have a point that proper technique can help improve performance, majority of the performance will still be from physical conditioning. Besides, it's not like Cap continuously practices techniques for powerlifting or sprinting. You don't see him training for these.

For your theory to hold water, you have to prove that Cap changed his "technique" from TFA to AOU so that it significantly increased his strength and speed. You need to show that there's a change in technique.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
From them taking the hits they did throughout the movie... specifically when fighting Ozy. Put it this way, if BW fought Ozy, she would've gone down sooner than they did imo. Again though, how does WS win this fight. He's not better in any area than Ozy. Ozy is faster... more skilled.... just as durable... better reactions etc etc. He tools WS and laughs at him for even thinking he can step to Ozy.

Or, you could simply conclude that Ozy doesn't hit quite as hard as you think. After all, Roscharch was overpowered by a few prison guards. Black Widow has taken out better.

If Comedian had gone up against WS he'd have been done for in a few seconds.

Soooo does Bucky not have his robot arm? People seem to think Ozy can take hits from it with no problem or he won't be using it in the fight.

I can't post vids right now but if you watch the Cap vs. Bucky fight, they are fighting faster than the Ozy vs. Note owl and Roach fight.
So basing off of screen feats,
WS is faster while fighting, just as skilled as Ozy (watch his fight, he's a trained soldier), more durable (what durability feats does Ozy have?), and Bucky is stronger.

WS's bionic-arm punched into concrete iirc, that's going to wear down Ozy even when blocking.

WS takes this in the long run.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Cap from AOU certainly seems to be a better fighter (or at least a more impressive one) than TFA, but I disagree about him being faster or stronger. Though you have a point that proper technique can help improve performance, majority of the performance will still be from physical conditioning. Besides, it's not like Cap continuously practices techniques for powerlifting or sprinting. You don't see him training for these.

For your theory to hold water, you have to prove that Cap changed his "technique" from TFA to AOU so that it significantly increased his strength and speed. You need to show that there's a change in technique.

Unless you think Cap just sits on his booty for years and not trying to improve, than I don't know what you're asking for. We're talking about someone who is constantly training and constantly trying to improve himself and test himself. It's like this... If I try and lift an awkward table the first time and I struggle... the next time I'll know how to lift it better. Thus I lift it easier and cleaner. That doesn't mean I studied a book on technique of lifting a table... just simply doing things you learn about leverage and what works best. I fully believe it's in character for Cap to be constantly trying to learn new things and improve himself through training. That is what he does. However, even if you somehow believe he doesn't, he'd still learn through experience. You disagree?

Originally posted by Inhuman
I can't post vids right now but if you watch the Cap vs. Bucky fight, they are fighting faster than the Ozy vs. Note owl and Roach fight.
So basing off of screen feats,
WS is faster while fighting, just as skilled as Ozy (watch his fight, he's a trained soldier), more durable (what durability feats does Ozy have?), and Bucky is stronger.

In no way shape or form is Bucky faster... that is a completely false. Ozy by feats, is faster with better reactions. By A LOT. Bucky isn't certainly not more skilled, this must be another joke. Ozy is decisively more skilled than Bucky. The only thing Bucky has going for him is he's hard to put down, but Ozy will do so, while laughing at him